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English as the Official Language

post #1 of 54
10/15/07 at 5:34am
Thread Starter 
I thought I would forward this on:
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 23:35:23 -0500, "Colonel Harry Riley USA ret"
>wrote:>
> Senators,
>> Your vote against an amendment to the Immigration Bill 1348, to make
>English America's official language is astounding. On D-Day no less when we
>honor those that sacrificed in order to secure the bedrock character and
>principles of America . I can only surmise your vote reflects a loyalty to
>illegal aliens.>
> I don't much care where you come from, what your religion is,
>whether you're black, white or some other color, male or female, democrat,
>republican or independent, but I do care when you're a United States
>Senator, representing citizens of America and vote against English as the
>official language of the United States>
> Your vote reflects betrayal, political surrender, violates your
>pledge of allegiance, dishonors historical principle, rejects patriotism,
>borders on traitorous action and, in my opinion, makes you unfit to serve
>as a United States Senator... impeachment, recall, or other appropriate
>action is warrented.
> Worse, 4 of you voting against English as America 's official
>language are presidential candidates: Senator Biden, Senator Clinton,
>Senator Dodd, and Senator Obama.>
> Those 4 Senators vying to lead America but won't or don't have the
>courage to cast a vote in favor of English as America's official language
>when 91% of American citizens want English officially designated as our
>language.>
> This is the second time in the last several months this list of
>Senators have disgraced themselves as political hacks... unworthy as
>Senators and certainly unqualifed to serve as President of the United
>States.>
> If America is as angry as I am, you will realize a back-lash so
>stunning it will literally rock you out of your panties... and preferably,
>totally out of the United States Senate.>
> The entire immigration bill is a farce... your action only confirms
>this really isn't about America ; it's about self-serving politics...
>despicable at best.
> "Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and
>beat you with experience." ~ anonymous
> The following senators voted against making English the official
>language of America :
>
> Akaka (D-HI)
> Bayh (D-IN)
> Biden (D-DE) Wants to be President?
> Bingaman (D-NM)
> Boxer (D-CA)
> Cantwell (D-WA)
> Clinton (D-NY) Wants to be President?
> Dayton (D-MN)
> Dodd (D-CT) Wants to be President?
> Domenici (R-NM) Coward, protecting his Senate seat...
> Durbin (D-IL)
> Feingold (D-WI) Not unusual for him
> Feinstein (D-CA)
> Harkin (D-IA)
> Inouye (D-HI)
> Jeffords (I-VT)
> Kennedy (D-MA)
> Kerry (D-MA) Wanted to be President
> Kohl (D-WI)
> Lautenberg (D-NJ)
> Leahy (D-VT)
> Levin (D-MI)
> Lieberman (D-CT) Disappointment here.....
> Menendez (D-NJ)
> Mikulski (D-MD)
> Murray (D-WA)
> Obama (D-IL) Wants to be President?
> Reed (D-RI)
> Reid (D-NV) Senate Majority Leader
> Salazar (D-CO)
> Sarbanes (D-MD)
> Schumer (D-NY)
> Stabenow (D-M)
> "Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage
>morale, and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested,
>exiled or hanged."
> ~ President Abraham Lincoln " Amen "
>
>
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post #2 of 54
10/15/07 at 6:05am
If it had not been for the Navajo "code talkers" of World War 2, there may not have been a "D-Day". If not for German-Americans, half of the allies clandestine operations would have been 100 times more difficult.

Why relegate someone to second class citizen by nature of their primary language?

El americano es el pote que derrite del mundo después de todos
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post #3 of 54
10/15/07 at 6:16am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippymjp View Post
If it had not been for the Navajo "code talkers" of World War 2, there may not have been a "D-Day". If not for German-Americans, half of the allies clandestine operations would have been 100 times more difficult.

Why relegate someone to second class citizen by nature of their primary language?

El americano es el pote que derrite del mundo después de todos
I don't think is about making anyone a second class citizen! On my mother's side I am only 2nd generation and grew up with her family speaking Polish! I think that one of the wonderful things about this country is that we are a melting pot. But, I think that when you chose to live in another country, or if you chose to become a citizen, you should learn to function in that country - regardless of what your "native" language is.
I don't think that I could move to Russia or Denmark or Spain, etc. without at least learning to communicate in that language. Does that mean I am second class or giving up my own heritage? No, I don't think so.
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post #4 of 54
10/15/07 at 6:29am
I have no problem with those from other countries who want to retain their native tongue (its a good thing). But if you want to spend your life in the USA, then LEARN to speak and read ENGLISH!

If you chose to move to France you'd learn French; if you moved to China, you'd learn Chinese. if you move to America, you learn ENGLISH!

And for the ones running for President of the USA, they should be ashamed of themselves to vote against English as the official language!
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post #5 of 54
10/15/07 at 7:15am
I'm still trying to figure out the point of an "official language". Does that mean that every ethnic eatery in the country would have to use english only on their menu's? Did you know that the word for "fries" in spanish is fraditas? If an official english speaking American goes into a Hispanic restaurant and orders fries (fraditias in english), they will be very surprised with the dish they are served.

Or will we just invent lots of new words?

ETA: back to the Navajos for a second. They were here long before there was a United States here. Do they get a "grandfather clause" on the official language thing, or does losing the war make them subject to such things?
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post #6 of 54
10/15/07 at 7:44am
The phrase "official language" applies to government business, not private lives or personal business. In AZ, ballots are printed in both English and Spanish, as are the drivers' tests. If I remember correctly, California prints these items, in several languages.

The REAL point is that, if you are a citizen of this country, you need to have a working knowledge of English.
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post #7 of 54
10/15/07 at 8:13am
Business and Corporations are going to continue to do whatever makes them money. If they can entice immigrants, both legal and illegal, to spend money with them, they will print their documents in everything from english to farsi. It is already a requirement for Naturalization that the applicant be able to read, write, and speak english. There is, however, no law that says that they can't teach their children their native language only. Even if there is a law making english an official language, it will also still be against the law for government offices to refuse service to someone that doesn't speak english.

My point is, there doesn't seem to be a point. Money will continue to make the rules.
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post #8 of 54
10/15/07 at 8:27am
I think that as long as Puerto Rico is considered a U.S. Territory, we cannot rule out Spanish as a language.

I also see the U.S. as being too large of a country to have or adopt an official language (federally). I can see States passing the bill for legislative purposes, but the fact of the matter is that we're just too large. One could argue China, but China has over 29 different dialects of Chinese. Even Russia has 30 official languages...it just depends on the region.
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post #9 of 54
10/15/07 at 9:24am
The numerous glaring flaws in the logic of the chain e-mail include
"91% of Americans want english declared an official language" being taken as "91% of Americans want English Only legislation", and the obvious fact that illegal aliens are not the only ones who don't speak English voids the ad-hom "you must be siding with our enemy".

MOST countries do have official languages. Most countries have more than one official language.

This entire movement is a backlash against illegal immigration; it is aimed in the wrong direction, it has absolutely no practical validity, and the way many people (not here) argue it, it's flat-out racism.

Total-immersion language learning (sink or swim, etc) does not work. It further isolates people, making them less likely to be productive members of society and LESS likely to learn English.

The movement is really people feeling threatened by another culture, when there isn't really any need to be. A majority of people thinking something doesn't make it right, and yes, I know this is only about language in an official capacity. Which makes it about alienating people from official life.

These laws have been overturned before; in Alaska because people couldn't communicate with their congressmen, for one thing. Encouraging people to learn English does not include violating all of their other rights, such as the right to a trial interpreted into a language they understand.
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post #10 of 54
10/15/07 at 9:56am
Everyone should have an official language. I should not be expected to learn Polish/Spanish/Japenese/Chinese/etc in case these people come into my English spoken country. I am happy to hear foreign people talking in the street to one another, but if they decide to LIVE in the country, then they need to speak to the natives in their Official language.
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post #11 of 54
10/15/07 at 10:12am
The reason I said my comment on this was far too many people come here and get welfare cause they cannot speak/write/read English. So they use our system and are not productive because they refuse to learn English. Its like going to Germany and deciding you don't want to learn German, but expect handouts cause you can't read/speak German!

That's what I'm more upset about!
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post #12 of 54
10/15/07 at 10:26am
To echo some of the other posters, what difference does it make whether a language is "official"? Not a whit. Germany has an official language. I work in a German city whose population is 20% "foreign". While many of those foreign nationals speak German, fluently or not, there are thousands and thousands who barely understand a word of it.

I agree with Mike that it's an affront to Native Americans to declare English the official language of the United States, too.
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post #13 of 54
10/15/07 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
The reason I said my comment on this was far too many people come here and get welfare cause they cannot speak/write/read English. So they use our system and are not productive because they refuse to learn English. Its like going to Germany and deciding you don't want to learn German, but expect handouts cause you can't read/speak German!

That's what I'm more upset about!
Ok, now I didn't know that. I had no idea that low language skills could be considered a disability.
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post #14 of 54
10/15/07 at 11:32am
It's not in itself but I've seen a lot where its one of the excuses for not finding work! Can see it used for those over 50 yrs old but IMO its NOT an excuse for younger!
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post #15 of 54
10/15/07 at 11:40am
If a democrat wins the WHite House and the Dems control Congress, God help us when it comes to immigration and National Security.
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post #16 of 54
10/15/07 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
If a democrat wins the WHite House and the Dems control Congress, God help us when it comes to immigration and National Security.
Well, let's see. Bush has been in the White House for nearly seven years, and the Republicans had control of Congress until 2006. What exactly have they done to stop illegal immigration? Did all the c. 11 million illegal aliens enter the country before January 2001? Aren't illegal immigrants pushing for a repeat of the 1986 Amnesty? Now, who was president in 1986? A Democrat?

FBI agents were warning about foreign nationals at U.S. flight schools in the summer of 2001. Who was responsible for National Security in 2001?

And who has created a training ground for terrorists in Iraq? And over a million Iraqi refugees in Syria (think of Palestinian refugees, and all the trouble that created, if you don't get my point). A Democrat?
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post #17 of 54
10/15/07 at 12:21pm
Yeah, but the Democrats are famous for handing out things - like welfare, benefits, etc. and not requiring them to be working for it.
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post #18 of 54
10/15/07 at 1:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Yeah, but the Democrats are famous for handing out things - like welfare, benefits, etc. and not requiring them to be working for it.
All these arguments are too simplistic, including those in my above post. I could reply that the Republicans are famous for kowtowing to big business so that they can line their pockets or campaign coffers. Tax cuts or government contracts, anyone?

Don't you think Tyson Foods is considering whom contributions should be made to?

Where's the big difference? I'm a former registered Republican who has voted Independent, and is now a registered Democrat. I have to be registered with some party in order to vote, but would never dream of not splitting my ballot. Looking at the current Presidential candidates. I've caught myself thinking that Hillary is a little too "right wing/hawkish" for my tastes (I find any pro-Iraq-invasion vote extremely distasteful and naive), and that most "dyed-in-the wool Republicans" will probably find Giuliani too left wing.

I don't have any respect for members of Congress who always vote along party lines. Likewise, I don't want to turn myself into a sheep being led to slaughter by buying all those lines sanctifying one party while demonizing others. That just seems so superficial and ill-informed to me..

How many prominent politicians have changed parties? Of the current candidates, Hillary Clinton was formerly a Republican, and McCain a Democrat. Reagan started out as a Democrat. Bloomberg has transitioned from a Democrat to a Republican to an Independent. Look at Schwarzenegger - is he your "typical" Republican?
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post #19 of 54
10/15/07 at 1:34pm
The Republicans have been bad about immigration, no doubt about it, but I think the Democrats will be worse. Just going by Teddy's immigration bill he tried to pass this past summer.
I don't think either party gives a hoot about public opinion on immigration to tell you the truth. I just think the Repubs are the lesser of two evils.
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post #20 of 54
10/15/07 at 1:36pm
I used to split my vote too and vote for Harry Reid.
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post #21 of 54
10/15/07 at 1:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I don't think either party gives a hoot about public opinion on immigration to tell you the truth. I just think the Repubs are the lesser of two evils.
Well, in an attempt to get this thread back on track, my reaction to that email originally posted was that the entire "non-issue" of an "official language" was being exploited in order to bash Democrats, and thus not something I'd lend much credence or thought to.
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post #22 of 54
10/15/07 at 2:00pm
To clarify something that is getting confused both in the email and this thread:

"Official English" means it would be declared an official language of the US. This would change absolutely nothing in our day-to-day lives, and is a cermonial gesture more than anything else. It could open doors to start requiring people to speak it, etc etc.

"English-Only" means that absolutely no official business can be conducted in any language other than English. Sometimes legislation makes concessions in certain circumstances, sometimes not. If it doesn't, it's usually immediately overturned by the courts as being unconstitutional for a variety of reasons-- violating freedom of speech (as in Arizona where politicians were kept from speaking in Spanish to constituenst) or the right to a fair trial, or for just hindering access to government (as in Alaska, where it was ruled that the NATIVE Americans must be allowed to speak to their government in their own language).

Neither of this issues has a darn thing to do with immigration. People think they do, but many non-citizens speak English and many American-born citizens do not. Trying to apply your feelings towards illegal immigrants to English-Only leads to oversimplification, which is being used by any number of lobby groups to try and push through English-Only legislation that does absolutely nothing to help immigrants or us, and a lot to hurt them.

Should people here speak English? Yes, for their own benefit. Should they be prevented from doing anything official in their own language? Why? What effect does it have on you? English is not even remotely endangered, nor is English-speaking culture threatened to be no longer completely in power.

It will cost millions to implement a nationwide English-Only policy. It will do absolutely nothing to help the various problems mentioned in this thread, including help anyone learn English. The inability to speak English doesn't keep you from getting a job, it keeps you from getting a good job, and that is incentive to learn it.

People say over and over again that they're against illegal immigrants but not legal immigrants, but attitudes about things like these show that that just isn't true. Legality has nothign to do with linguistic ability, and a legal immigrant is no more or less likely to be a fluent English speaker than an illegal one at first.
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post #23 of 54
10/15/07 at 4:56pm
English for the win ( as they say in the gaming world)
anything else you speak at home is your business
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post #24 of 54
10/15/07 at 7:06pm
Yeah, to tell you the truth I can't get to excited about it either. English IS the official language and always will be because that is what the majority speaks.
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post #25 of 54
10/15/07 at 7:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post

People say over and over again that they're against illegal immigrants but not legal immigrants, but attitudes about things like these show that that just isn't true. Legality has nothign to do with linguistic ability, and a legal immigrant is no more or less likely to be a fluent English speaker than an illegal one at first.

That is so not true, People are not doing legal immigrants a favor buy treating them like kids. if you move to a new country, the only way you are going to fit into that socity is to have a basic understanding of the language of the land.

I know the idea of the United States of America is distastful for some,But a common tounge is needed, to maintain a nation.

what you speak at home is there own business.
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post #26 of 54
10/15/07 at 7:32pm
A good many of the legal immigrants that I've encountered are in the process of learning to speak and read English. People that grew up with English don't seem to realize that its a hard language to learn. Like I pointed out before, there are words used in English that just don't translate. And, our teens and tweens (and advertisers) change the language every year. Somewhere along the line, a hamburger beef sandwich became "a burger" (that would actually be someone from the burg, but I'll leave that till later ), french fried potatoes became "fries", and one of my favorites that sort of sneaked up on me....when did chrysanthemums become "mums"??

Take all that, and then look at the fact that many of our language instruction books seem to have been written by Kipling or Fitzgerald, and its tough to learn.

Insisting that someone arrive in the US functional in English is just unrealistic and a tad bit intolerant.
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post #27 of 54
10/15/07 at 7:47pm
lol oh yea, i know it is not easy to learn(should try chinese) not that i can spell in english anyway, or in chinese, or in indoensian, err, you get the point.

by saying english is the offical, all you do is give people base to work from.
hmm i would think the idea of saying they have to arrive fully functional, is a bit to much.
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post #28 of 54
10/15/07 at 8:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
English IS the official language
Not true. The US does not have an official language.

Around here, we have a very large population of Somali refugees who came here to escape a genocide in their home country. They are legal, and for many of them there was no preparation for coming to America. They couldn't just pop down to their local community college and take some classes in English conversation... you know, they were too busy doing frivolous things like barely surviving. How were they supposed to get off the plane/boat and magically learn a language that is about as different as two languages can be? Not to mention that many of them are not literate in their native language, making it ever more difficult to be able to read and write in English.

These are the kinds of things that people just don't think about. Would most of us try to learn a language as best we could before moving to an area that spoke it? Yes, but then again most of us have 10x the education, resources, money, etc etc as most of the rest of the world.
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post #29 of 54
10/16/07 at 5:30am
While I don't expect refugees/immigrants, etc. to have a working English language when they get here, I DO expect them to make an effort to learn some as soon as possible (to get a job - not just handouts from the welfare system).

But to sit there and whine that you can't work, etc. cause you don't want to learn English is another thing. Most of those who came from Italy, German, France, etc. in the early 1900's learned English as quick as they could and were good/strong/productive workers. Now they just come here and say "heck with it - take care of me".

If English were the official language, then it would help people know that they should learn it to be productive.
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post #30 of 54
10/16/07 at 8:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
While I don't expect refugees/immigrants, etc. to have a working English language when they get here, I DO expect them to make an effort to learn some as soon as possible (to get a job - not just handouts from the welfare system).

But to sit there and whine that you can't work, etc. cause you don't want to learn English is another thing. Most of those who came from Italy, German, France, etc. in the early 1900's learned English as quick as they could and were good/strong/productive workers. Now they just come here and say "heck with it - take care of me".

If English were the official language, then it would help people know that they should learn it to be productive.
They already do know that-- people who don't learn English are unlikely to finish high school, unlikely to get a job as anything but a wage slave, unlikely to be able to leave their neighborhood, etc etc. They don't just come here and get on welfare, if they're illegal immigrants, and for the most part nobody but single women with children get much aid from the government, including native citizens. The low-income housing application here says outright to not bother applying unless you're a single woman with children.

Aside from that, if you are a supporter of English-Only, how are you allowing for even a day between arriving and being a completely fluent speaker of English? The laws do not say everythign must be done in English unless the person is a new legal immigrant, they say everything must be done in English, no matter what.
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