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Can the experts explain:)

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
There are alot of questions about quality... Yes I understand faults or desired traits... But how would one distigush show vs breeding quality as I have seen many cats that are breeders that havent been shown... Is there a laymen explaination??
post #2 of 23
Actually the 'breeders" may be more show quality but they don't like showing for whatever reason. It depends more on the pedigree. For example (in Charlie's pedigree):

His dad is a Grand Ch, and most of the cats from that point on are also Grand Ch's. However, his mom was never shown - not cause she was a poor quality cat (95% of her ancestors are also Grands), but because she was a female who came into heat early and the breeders felt she was better off as a breeder then to try and keep her in show condition and deal with heat cycles.

She has produced top quality cats - many of whom have gotten their Grands.


A lot of breeders now either have them listed as a show quality or a pet quality. You certainly don't want to be breeding pet quality cats And I would only breed a male/female that was capable of being a show cat - anything less would be spayed/neutered and sold as a pet.
post #3 of 23
Thread Starter 
AHH that makes sense ... the dog showing world I have a better understanding of
post #4 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
There are alot of questions about quality... Yes I understand faults or desired traits... But how would one distigush show vs breeding quality as I have seen many cats that are breeders that havent been shown... Is there a laymen explaination??
It depends upon three things, really ... what the Breed Standard calls for, the individual traits of the cat and the interpretation of the person judging the cat.

Let's say you have a cat which you believe is an outstanding example of whatever Breed. You look at the requirements in the Standard and see that each requirement is given a certain number of points. If you show the cat, then of course, the higher number of points the cat received in the show ring, the more certain you can be that the cat is in fact, an outstanding example of the Breed. But if you don't show the cat for whatever reason, it tends to sometimes get tricky when you have different people interpreting the cat as it conforms to the Breed Standard ... one person may not think your cat is so outstanding whereas another might think you have 24 karat gold wrapped in fur.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Actually the 'breeders" may be more show quality but they don't like showing for whatever reason. It depends more on the pedigree. For example (in Charlie's pedigree):

His dad is a Grand Ch, and most of the cats from that point on are also Grand Ch's. However, his mom was never shown - not cause she was a poor quality cat (95% of her ancestors are also Grands), but because she was a female who came into heat early and the breeders felt she was better off as a breeder then to try and keep her in show condition and deal with heat cycles.

She has produced top quality cats - many of whom have gotten their Grands.
Let me apologize in advance for this being so very long, but your comments sparked numerous questions for me ... please bear with me.

Isn't it more important to look at the individual cat rather than the pedigree when determining breeder, show or pet quality? For the purposes of my example, let's assume I was able to show my cats ... my Tonka is not in any way, shape or form an outstanding example of the Breed ... his coat is too coarse and dark, his eyecolor stinks ... his pedigree is good, but there are aspects to his type that do not at all conform to the Standard as I recognize it. However, he is an excellent Stud and consistantly produces shining examples of the Standard when paired with an appropriate female. I wouldn't put Tonka in the Show Ring, it would be an exercise in futility and self-punishment for me to do so, but I would have no problem whatsoever showing any one or more of his kittens. In my admittedly limited and still-open opinion, Tonka would fall under the category of "Breeder Quality".

Lexus, my queen, is the same. She is not what anyone would call even a good example of the Standard even though her pedigree is excellent ... her eyes are too round, coat is too soft ... but when appropriately paired, her kittens are big, beautiful, healthy and conform to a whole lot more of the Standard than Lexus does. So, again, in my opinion, Lex is also "Breeder Quality".

Now, on to their kittens ... *grin* ... I mentioned above that I wouldn't have a problem showing their offspring and I wouldn't. But would I breed them? Good health is extremely important to me - in fact, I rate it higher than conforming to the Standard. If I were to even consider breeding cats that I was showing, they had better be extremely healthy because as we all know but some don't want to admit, a lot of show cats within certain breeds tend to be "delicate" in constitution. It would also depend upon whether or not I could find another cat to pair them with who didn't also possess the undesired genes in their background - in my chosen breed, that is literally equal to trying to find a really tiny needle in a really big haystack.

The way I choose to look at it is that "breeder quality" cats consistantly produce "show quality" cats. It is the show quality cats who can and oftentimes do produce pet quality kittens - not so much because they are not a good example of the breed but rather because they fall into the hands of people who don't understand how to find an appropriate match for them as individuals - and the results are the pet quality kittens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
A lot of breeders now either have them listed as a show quality or a pet quality. You certainly don't want to be breeding pet quality cats And I would only breed a male/female that was capable of being a show cat - anything less would be spayed/neutered and sold as a pet.
Not to sound like the old harpy I am becoming, but what about those of us whose goal is to preserve and protect old, healthy bloodlines? Even with the new and IMO controversial TICA/Thai thing, we are beginning to see the same mistakes made by breeders who should know better than not to learn from those who came before them - but I digress ... the point I am trying to make is that my cats are not capable of being shown for many reasons, least of all that they are an immediate disqualification. So, does this automagically render them "pet quality"?
post #5 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by gayef View Post
It depends upon three things, really ... what the Breed Standard calls for, the individual traits of the cat and the interpretation of the person judging the cat.
Totally agree on this - and I have examples. There is one particular judge that has yet to final my cats (unless they were kittens and even then very rarely). According to him, my cats are fine examples of the breed but NOT outstanding, which to all intents and purposes makes them breeder q for that particular judge and that judge only!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gayef View Post
Isn't it more important to look at the individual cat rather than the pedigree when determining breeder, show or pet quality?
Well, in this case, yes and no. Yes, I do look at all my cats individually to determine quality. However, if the cat should be show q but is breeder or even pet due to bad coat color, then, I look at pedigree to see if I should sell the cat as a breeder or not. Most people "in the know" would breed the paper not the cat - bloodlines will tell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gayef View Post
The way I choose to look at it is that "breeder quality" cats consistantly produce "show quality" cats. It is the show quality cats who can and oftentimes do produce pet quality kittens - not so much because they are not a good example of the breed but rather because they fall into the hands of people who don't understand how to find an appropriate match for them as individuals - and the results are the pet quality kittens.
Well said. I often look at breeder cats simply to check out bloodlines to see if they would mesh with mine. If a show cat is unavailable and the breeder is agreeable, I would agree to at least try to DM the breeder . I show too much anyway so trying to Grand 5 or 15 cats is no big
post #6 of 23
OK. Clueless dork here.

Gaye, can you provide pics of the kitties to show what you mean? (I really would just love to see pics of your ktities )

So, what you are saying, Gaye....is that a not necessary purr-fect kitty paired with another can make purr-fect kittens....basically anyways?

How do you determine what pairing will produce purr-fect kittens....is it trial & error? Or do you look for certain things to counter-balance the "poor" traits the your kitty?
post #7 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by white cat lover View Post
OK. Clueless dork here.

Gaye, can you provide pics of the kitties to show what you mean? (I really would just love to see pics of your ktities )

So, what you are saying, Gaye....is that a not necessary purr-fect kitty paired with another can make purr-fect kittens....basically anyways?

How do you determine what pairing will produce purr-fect kittens....is it trial & error? Or do you look for certain things to counter-balance the "poor" traits the your kitty?
Two top show cats doesn't necessarily mean that you will get a perfect show litter.

99% of all litters contain Show, breed and pet q kittens. If the breeder is really really lucky, you don't get pet q. I could show you my 2nd litter of Abys - the one that include Suria and Bulan. I was lucky enough to get 2 show kittens and one very obvious pet q. But if it were not for the defect that made Bintang pet q (she has a slight kink at the tip of her tail), she would definitely be Breeder at the very least and "showable" (not to be shown at the same time as Bulan, Bintang would lose).

When I say breed the paper, I mean exactly that. Most breeders should know their pedigrees up to at least 5 generations back. In that, you learn which lines work best with each other to produce what desired effects.

I will confuzzle you now - an example if you will....



This is Grand Champion Masmera Cahaya Bulan.

She's a gorgeous cat BUT as her breeder I can see faults or problems. AND I need to correct that to achieve my idea of the ultimate Abyssinian. For the "perfect" Aby (according to my interpretation of the breed standard and with agreement from the judges) what I need are better ears and ear set, eyes and size. In other words, a bigger cat with bigger ears and eyes and a slightly pointier chin.

So, as a breeder I must search for these desired traits and breed them into my cats. BUT, not all matings will work, Not all lines will gel. So this is where breeding the paper will work. I know from my cat's pedigree what lines are already in there. So I have to check back again to these catteries to see if there IS an offshoot of that line for the ears, eyes and size.

Yes, I could completely "out" breed - meaning breed out of the lines that are already in the pedigree - trial and error. Worth it 60% of the time because breeding "out" introduces something new and wonderful in your cats.

Was this too breeder technical?
post #8 of 23
Coz you asked

Above is a picture of my Grand Champion. Obviously show quality since she wouldn't have granded if she wasn't!

Here's a pic of my CH Masmera Puteri Manja (call named Dodo)



Dodo is breeder and was sold as one

Can you see the difference? I don't have a good picture of Masmera Kelip Bintang who is Pet Q sorry....

If you'd like I'll go over both cats point for point!
post #9 of 23
Well, my first question....is Bingtang's tail kink genetic? Something like a tail kink, can't it be caused after birth....be a product of nature not genetics....therefore make Bingtang breeding quality?

I'll never get this, but you never know, I might learn something here!
ETA: I see quite a bit of difference face-wise between Dodo & masmera!
post #10 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by white cat lover View Post
Well, my first question....is Bingtang's tail kink genetic? Something like a tail kink, can't it be caused after birth....be a product of nature not genetics....therefore make Bingtang breeding quality?

I'll never get this, but you never know, I might learn something here!
Definitely not a genetic defect - she comes from generations upon generations of straight tailed Abys. It's not only her tail but also her color that makes her pet q. Which is very unfortunate since she has the best head in all of the three! When you combine such obvious faults such as these there is no choice but to proclaim the cat as pet q. Breeder with only the lousy color would have been entirely possible but with the tail, a no-no.
post #11 of 23
So, say....you've got a kitty with a kick-behind pedigree, purr-fect look....except for a kink in the tail. Pet Q or Breeder? (Since show would be a no-go w/ the kink)

I'm still not sure on the whole "kink" aspect....
post #12 of 23
In some cases, the tail kink is most certainly genetic and a cat carrying that trait should only be bred with a cat who wasn't carrying that trait. The tail fault gene is negative genetically so could only be produced in kittens from parents who both carried it.
post #13 of 23
o.k. I have a question I would like to add. When purchasing a kitten sold as show quality how can anyone be sure that when the kitten matures he/she will actually be show quality? I know that when looking at breeders all had a variety of prices for show quality kittens. I have no experience with showing so more than likely will never show. My kitten would have been hundreds more had I purchased breeding rights but I am not looking to start a cattery so I was not interested in that either. My cat is still very young as Ragdolls don't mature for two years but to my eye he looks just like any pet quality Ragdoll of his color. So how as a breeder can you make the decision of quality on a breed that changes so much as they grow? And should the purchaser get a written statement that the cat will actually grow to be show quality?
post #14 of 23
As for the tail kink I do believe it is genetic. I was just offered a cat as a breeder with a tail kink. I am very fortunate to have top breeders in my breed look out for me and I was told not to take that cat.

As for how can breeders know if a kitten will continue to be show quality as it grows I don't think most know imo. I do feel top breeders who have been in this awhile who constantly produce exceptional kittens will have a much better idea on how the kitten will mature.

Both of my Somalis were purchased as show quality. Both have turned out as pet quality. They are both from different breeders. Veeshan is from a newer Somali breeder and Kingston is from a 10 year breeder. Kingston is only 11 months old he could still mature a lot more but with him having stomatitus I doubt it.
post #15 of 23
Yes the cat is evaluated "in person" as well as the pedigree. Sorry for the confusion. You can put two Grand Champions together and get all pet quality cats. So you evaluate the cat for the qualities its supposed to have for the breed standard. If they don't meet those standards, they are not put in the breeding program.

As far as those who want to preserve the old style, that's a totally different thing. For one, you are working uphill (I give you credit) and it takes years to get breeds accepted. In the meantime you still need to be breeding towards a standard goal with other breeders interested in helping them become a breed that can be shown in whatever association. If you are breeding outside the norm with no real goal or purpose other then you just don't like the modern standards on the bench, then you are basically breeding cats for pets - something we don't like to see.

The Ocicats were created in the 1960's but it took 20 years of working toward a standard and goal for showing before they were accepted to walk into the show ring and compete.

Does that help?


As far as how can you tell a show quality kitten will still be a show quality adult? You can and can't. If you know the lines, know how your cats develop, you can evaluate them better. Sometimes you have a "pet" who in a year actually turns out to be show! Most times a show kitten will remain that way. Charlie was more "together" as a kitten. He won't really mature totally for another year. But he's still show quality - just immature at the moment. Some judges allow for that "teen" stage cause they can see the cat will get it together soon. Others will not final your cat till they do mature. I know Charlie will do better as he gets more age and maturity on him - in the meantime he still picks up finals at the show - not top ones yet, but he should in time
post #16 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by white cat lover View Post
So, say....you've got a kitty with a kick-behind pedigree, purr-fect look....except for a kink in the tail. Pet Q or Breeder? (Since show would be a no-go w/ the kink)

I'm still not sure on the whole "kink" aspect....
A kinked tail almost always disqualifies a cat from being show q therefore the cat becomes automatically pet q. I say almost always because some breed standards do allow for invisible kinks. Wouldn't know how to explain invisible kinks coz I haven't met a cat with one yet!

Kinks can be bred down. So in Bintang's case there is no way I would allow her to be bred at all + the fact that she has lousy color seals in her fate as pet, not breeder.

How can I prove that it's not in the genes? It's all in the bloodlines plus the fact that in Reecie's 3 litters, she's the only one and Dodo (her sib) has yet to produce a kinked tail kitten thus far (Dodo is on her 2nd litter now).
post #17 of 23
Thread Starter 
Thank you all the EXperts I am learning alot
post #18 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by harlowquin View Post
o.k. I have a question I would like to add. When purchasing a kitten sold as show quality how can anyone be sure that when the kitten matures he/she will actually be show quality? I know that when looking at breeders all had a variety of prices for show quality kittens. I have no experience with showing so more than likely will never show. My kitten would have been hundreds more had I purchased breeding rights but I am not looking to start a cattery so I was not interested in that either. My cat is still very young as Ragdolls don't mature for two years but to my eye he looks just like any pet quality Ragdoll of his color. So how as a breeder can you make the decision of quality on a breed that changes so much as they grow? And should the purchaser get a written statement that the cat will actually grow to be show quality?
IMO and only because I know a Ragdoll breeder...Raggies are very hard to determine quality at a young age. The inverted V's (for bi-colors) develop very slowly so the breeder should know what to look for in a young kitten - 4 mo to determine what quality the cat will become, and really, a lot of that will be based on pedigree and knowledge.

Abys are a bit easier - well at least for me I usually can determine quality by the time the kitten is 2 weeks old. By then eyes are open and the ears are unfurled and you can make out where the ears will be placed, how big and where the eyes are, how pointed and/or round the chin is, the balance of the cat (ie. proportions of head, body and tail ) and what color or depth of color the kitten would have.

My current kitten however has me a bit confused....

At nearly 6 weeks his lousy color at birth is changing to a deeper shade of ruddy and right now, he's looking a bit "un"balanced. It appears his tail is a bit short. At 2 and 4 weeks, I proclaimed him "pet". At 6 weeks, I'm not sure I will decide later maybe at 4 months what he really is. Which is of course, the perfect time to neuter him, if need be
post #19 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitytize View Post
Both of my Somalis were purchased as show quality. Both have turned out as pet quality. They are both from different breeders. Veeshan is from a newer Somali breeder and Kingston is from a 10 year breeder. Kingston is only 11 months old he could still mature a lot more but with him having stomatitus I doubt it.
I disagree with your pronouncement of both cats being pet q. I still say that Veeshan is the better of the two cats (and have said that to you quite a few times!) + the fact that she is only a few points short of Grand proves it.

As for Kingston, well you know my thoughts on him as well! I'm sorry you're going through the stomachtitis (sp?) - I was made aware of it from reading the other forums on this site.
post #20 of 23
Yeah, I disagree that you think your Somalis are pet quality now. You've been showing them with success. What has changed your mind?
post #21 of 23
Breeders have told me over and over again Veeshan is pet quality. There seems to be much disagreement between breeders about Kingston. But 2 breeders (pm me if want names) who I feel are more knowledgeable about the breed feel Veeshan is better quality but still pet. Only 2 breeders feel he is show quality and 1 of them is his own breeder.

I understand why Veeshan is pet quality. She is close to granding but do you have any idea how many shows she has been to? She has been to 13 shows as a Premier. This is not show quality. I good show quality cat should grand within 4 shows I have been told. I would quit showing her but I just can't. She is my first Somali and I have worked very hard to get the points she has. Any show now she could Grand.

I also wonder sometimes if maybe I just live in the area where the majority of the top Somali breeders are. And their standards are a lot higher than lets say the west coast. But I can't afford to fly to shows to see if this is true. But still 13 shows is a little ridiculous don't you think?
post #22 of 23
Let me tell you the story of my Stevie, my first Aby....

Show quality? Very much so.
How many shows to grand? Hmmmm lemme see - took him 3 shows to just Champion (in the first show, his breeders were the judges which killed 2/5 rings and Reecie pipped him for BOB in the third) and then, took him another what 4 shows to Grand. I had despaired. Took him a total of some 16 rings to Grand. Total of nearly 2.5 years to do so... and mind you, this is a Long Hair country!

Worth the effort and heartache? Most definitely!

Why? Like you, he is the first male Aby I ever had. He has since produced a Grand Champion and a soon, I hope Grand Premier and another Grand Premier to follow suit.

I like Veeshan. I like her very much. She is definitely show worthy IMO.

You are in a difficult breed with small Premiership classes. I have noticed that breeds with small breed classes DO take more time to grand unless the cat is outstanding (and I mean a 93%) cat. Added to the fact that she is female, the odds are not in her favor.

Persevere - granding will come soon!

ETA - I just had a peek at the EPoints for Somalis in CFA. It appears to me that breeders and Judges are having different ideas as to what a Somali in this day and age should actually look like! The discrepancy between Highest scoring Somali in Championship and #10 is huge! In fact, I know the cat that is #9 on the Championship list and honestly, as a kitten, my Bulan defeated that cat in 7 out of 9 rings..... makes you wonder hmmmmm?

PM me if you want to see the list!
post #23 of 23
Ok see your point. Charlie's been in 3 adult shows (CFA). First one doesn't count as he was open. He's up to 25 points in the 2 counted shows. He's not "top" show, but he is show. He'll grand in ACFA first cause there are more shows and he's very close to what he needs.

I only have a very few shows in CFA to take him to without traveling long distance. So his CFA shows are limited. It depends on who is showing in your area and how many premiers are present. Ideally, I'd like to see about 5 premiers competing and take 4-6 rings of best premier to get points in almost every ring. Right now its double that amount, so its harder to get those finals.

I'd have to see Vee in person to evaluate her. And I would not give up - she will grand

I surprised my rex breeder with a grand. She sold me the cat more as a breeder then a show and she was surprised that the cat granded as quick as she did. She didn't expect that (had kept my cat's sister who also granded but was better). So you never know.
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