Want to breed my Siamese girl, but need advice...

Hello all

I've grown up with cats as a central part of my life, and have cared for many litters of kittens as my parents ran an animal sanctuary, where they'd often take in abandoned or unhealthy cats (amongst other animals), some of which were pregnant at the time.

Since moving away from home and buying a place of my own, I've recently had the joy of bringing home two new additions to the family: a wonderful fat blue burmese boy, and a gorgeous, clever little seal point applehead siamese girl.

It was the first time I've ever bought purebred cats - all my others have been rescue cats. As such, I didn't really consider the importance of deciding whether or not to buy a cat for breeding purposes. Now I'm kicking myself for it!

My Siamese isn't registered for breeding, but I'd love to breed her. I work from home, so I'm in an ideal situation for looking after litters of kittens. My problems are as follows:


1. I've heard that you pay more for the same cat, if you buy it for breeding as opposed to just a pet. Is this because of registration fees, etc? I'd be more than willing to pay extra money to either my breeder or to a registration place to make her registered for breeding...

2. I am in love with the Siamese personality, and as such I'd rather have purebred Siamese kittens. I'm assuming that nobody will let my Queen breed with their purebred stud unless I show papers that prove she's registered for breeding - which I may not be able to. This is fair enough, I suppose. I guess it all depends on whether I can register her for breeding as opposed to her being inactive...


...any suggestions, anyone?

If you bought her as not for breeding, you really should get her spayed. I'm surprised the breeder didn't get her done before you bought her.

You could talk to the breeder, but if she sold her as pet she may be pet quality which is not suitable for breeding. You only want to breed to improve. You pay more because the breeding/show cats fit the standard, whereas pet quality is slightly 'imperfect'

You are right that no decent breeder will allow you use of their stud. Over here you must be a registered breeder before anyone will even consider you, not sure about the US in terms of registration. And even then, it's not easy to find an outside stud.

The cat is definitely of breeding quality, every other kitten in her litter was sold for breeding purposes. She was sold to me as a non-breeding kitten... I was told this meant she was registered as inactive on the breeders list or something like this?

My problem is... I know she's of breeding quality and I'd dearly love to breed her... and would happily pay to have her re-registered as an active breeding cat (I don't even know if that's possible or makes sense, hehe).

I would contact your breeder and talk to them about breeding. See if they are willing to allow you to have the rights to breed your kitten. Your breeder is the best source of information and help.

Originally Posted by snosrap5

I would contact your breeder and talk to them about breeding. See if they are willing to allow you to have the rights to breed your kitten. Your breeder is the best source of information and help.

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the OFFICIAL stance of TCS

2. Please make sure to spay and neuter your cat. Unless you are a professional breeder and your cat is part of a professional breeding program, please educate yourself to the importance of spaying and neutering by the time your cat is 4-6 months old. By spaying and neutering you enhance your cat's quality of life and improve his or her health. You are also proving your love for cats because in acting as a responsible pet owner you are minimizing the problem of cat overpopulation.

Was the cat sold with a contract? I'm assuming you agreed to have the kitten altered. Your breeder is most likely holding back the paperwork until proof of altering is provided. I suggest you keep your word and have her spayed. We will not let any kitten go from our cattery unaltered for this very reason.

If you are serious about breeding purebred cats then I suggest that you start with a show quality alter and get some experience showing it. You can talk to other breeders about what it takes to breed and work towards it that way. You will need a Mentor!

The way your approaching it now is not the right way and will not gain you any respect with fellow breeders.

Originally Posted by Salky

The cat is definitely of breeding quality, every other kitten in her litter was sold for breeding purposes. She was sold to me as a non-breeding kitten... I was told this meant she was registered as inactive on the breeders list or something like this?

My problem is... I know she's of breeding quality and I'd dearly love to breed her... and would happily pay to have her re-registered as an active breeding cat (I don't even know if that's possible or makes sense, hehe).

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Just because the rest of her litter was sold for breeding, doesn't mean your girl was There can just be one little thing about her that the breeder didn't want in their lines to make her pet quality. That doesn't make her a less gorgeous pet, but I daresay there was a reason they didn't sell breeding rights. You can have 2 parents who are the top of their breeds and as perfect as possible, but that doesn't mean every single kitten they produce will also be breeding or show quality!

Definitely don't breed her for the sake of breeding her, and I agree that she should really be spayed for her own health.

If you are serious about breeding, then talk to the breeder you got her from about how to go about it. If you just want kittens, then talk to your local shelter about fostering a pregnant cat - I'm sure with your background you know that there's plenty of pregnant kitties who need homes with experienced people to help them deliver the babies and socialise them.

Good luck!

Originally Posted by Salky

Hello all

My Siamese isn't registered for breeding, but I'd love to breed her.

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I think that's your answer If you want to breed cats, you need to make it clear at the outset when you visit breeders that you are looking for a breeding cat. It's a good idea to start off by getting a show quality cat to show as a neuter before you start breeding too. That way you get to know breeders and really get to know the breed standard before you start out.

Which country are you from? I ask because you used the word 'inactive' which made me think you might be from the UK? Over here cats that are registered with the GCCF (most of them) are registered on the active or non active register. Being on the non active register means any kittens cannot be registered at all, as they are form a cat that was not registered for breeding. The registration can be changed to the active register, but only by the breeder. You, as the owner, cannot change it. If you really want to breed from her and think she's good enough you should discuss it with her breeder who may agree to move her to the active register if she's happy for you to breed her.

Let me just remind you that:

1. Breeding isn't for the fainthearted
2. Your cat ISN'T registered for breeding

Is your cat good enough to breed? it is always recommended that you know your breed standard front, back and inside out and have shown your cat to some success, ie. to Grand.

100% of all litters will produce show, breeder and pet quality kittens. If the breeder is extremely lucky, the breeder will produce only breeder and show. You should be able to differentiate each quality before even attempting to breed. If your cat is not of at least breeder quality, then I would suggest you do not breed her.

Just because she's a purebred Siamese, doesn't mean she should be bred - for whatever reason you think she should be bred.

Breeding is serious work. Good, ETHICAL breeders take time to evaluate their cats to see how close to the "perfect" example that cat is before they breed it. How? By knowing the standard of the breed, by studying the pedigree of the female and the male cat, knowing genetics, and by showing this cat in competition against others of its breed and other breeds.

If you have a top show cat, then you consider breeding. Otherwise you spay/neuter the cat and go buy a QUALITY show/breeder cat. This means spending $600 or more. Anything less means its not up to top breeder quality.

Then after you've proven your cat worthy of quality/showing, then you research your pedigrees, lines for a suitable male. You want a male that has qualities your female doesn't. For example, if your female is good type but could use better eye color or bigger ears, then your male should be one that has larger ears and deeper eye color.

Your cat should be tested for any genetic problems. You need to know which lines work best with each other. You don't just breed your Siamese to the Siamese male down the block.

And you should ONLY breed to improve the breed - not to produce kittens that have a cute personality, to make money, etc. Good breeders are lucky to break even with expenses after all is said and done. Very few ever really make any money.

And YOU are responsible for every kitten you produce. That means you spay/neuter the kittens before they go to someone else (unless they are top quality and go to someone who shows), have a written contract, give your kittens shots, keep the kittens for a minimum of 12-16 weeks (Siamese kittens have a lot of social/behavior problems if taken too soon - most do better leaving at 4 months old rather than any younger).

If you are interested in showing and improving the breed, then spay this Siamese female you have; go to cat shows and study the breed, talk to breeders and put your name on a waiting list for a future kitten you can show and/or breed.

If you cannot do the above at the very least, then you really are not an ethical breeder!

Another thing to consider is the fact your girl is an applehead. I am not sure about other countries but I don't believe there is an established show standard for them in the US OR a class to show them in. I know the 'Old Style Siamese' which are somewhere between the Apples and the Wedges are called 'Thai' in TICA, but their lineage MUST be strictly Siamese and not have any crosses with other breeds.

Anyways, it sounds like you want to breed for fun and thats okay! Most breeders breed because they enjoy it. BUT you have to take it very seriously. Simply choosing to breed your cat with another cat to have kittens is not an especially good idea. You want to research your cat's lines, determine her health and breed for improvement. That can be fun! You will more than likely have to buy a female cat with qualities worth breeding into a future generation as your current cat was not deemed 'breeding quality.'

We'd love to see photos of your kitties, btw, please post them sometime.

Please don't bred your Siamese just because she is a Siamese. I agree with everyone else, there are show kittens, breeders and pet kittens in litters. I have a pet quality Siamese - a real sweetheart. I had to sign papers saying I understood that I would not breed my cat and would have him neutered.

Max has been neutered and is the most wonderful cat! Just enjoy the fact that you are lucky enough to have a pet quality kitten with the wonderful Siamese personality.

Your parents own a cat sanctuary - don't you know that there are enough cats in the world?. Why on earth breed a cat - that doesn't even fit the standard for the breed (appleheads are faults as they do not fit the breed standard therefore are NOT breed quality and breeding them will NOT improve the breed) - when there are millions of back yard bred kittens dying in shelters every single day?

Why not give homes to kittens that ALREADY exist as opposed to creating more. I am all for reputable breeding - but breeding just because you want to - and just because your cat is a pure bred is IMO what ruines entire breeds of cats, creates kittens of poor quality and poor health, and leads to overpopulation and death. Every kitten born into the world snatches a avaliable home away from a kitten who already exists and now WILL DIE simply because you bred your cat and took away thier chance for a home.

Why not adopt a kitten from a breeder who has a special need or who is less adoptable - why not adopt another siamese who is a retired breeder and who needs to be placed in a new home by a reputable breeder or adopt a siamese or mix from a breed rescue or shelter. These are ways to contribute to your breed in POSSITIVE ways (by offering a home to a less desiable cat who needs one).

Originally Posted by dauntingfire

Another thing to consider is the fact your girl is an applehead. I am not sure about other countries but I don't believe there is an established show standard for them in the US OR a class to show them in. I know the 'Old Style Siamese' which are somewhere between the Apples and the Wedges are called 'Thai' in TICA, but their lineage MUST be strictly Siamese and not have any crosses with other breeds.

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It's the same over here in that there isn't a show standard for the traditional siamese (I think) but they can be registered and are quite popular with those wanting a pet quality siamese. There are quite a few traditional siamese breeders over here.

I must say I would not purchase a kitten from a breeder that was trying to breed kittens from pet quality parents. It is not the right thing to do in my mind. There are so many pet quality kittens from GOOD breeders, not to mention rescue Siamese and all types of cats. Max's litter had 5 kittens the breeder had to place with loving homes as pets. She only had one show cat out of the entire litter. My brother and I adopted two of the kittens. Breeders can have it tough as it is, I would have no respect for someone breeding Siamese for the sake of wanting kittens. I might add this breeder did not make any money on the 5 pet kittens, my brother and I paid her for their care for 3 months (shots, worming etc) which ended up about the same price as a rescue kitty. And we did not get their papers until we had proof that the kittens had been neutered. Max's papers are his little birth certificate and nothing more. We adopted the pet quality kittens because we knew that they would have good homes and needed to be placed in a forever home. Siamese make wonderful loving pets. Be thankful for what you have and do the right thing, just love your pet Siamese

Originally Posted by urbantigers

It's the same over here in that there isn't a show standard for the traditional siamese (I think) but they can be registered and are quite popular with those wanting a pet quality siamese. There are quite a few traditional siamese breeders over here.

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Ah! Good to know, I'm still learning a lot about the Meezers when it comes to registrations. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the wedgies. They're sweet but I'm more of a applehead/Thai lover myself.

Originally Posted by mlynn

Your parents own a cat sanctuary - don't you know that there are enough cats in the world?. Why on earth breed a cat - that doesn't even fit the standard for the breed (appleheads are faults as they do not fit the breed standard therefore are NOT breed quality and breeding them will NOT improve the breed) - when there are millions of back yard bred kittens dying in shelters every single day?

Why not give homes to kittens that ALREADY exist as opposed to creating more. I am all for reputable breeding - but breeding just because you want to - and just because your cat is a pure bred is IMO what ruines entire breeds of cats, creates kittens of poor quality and poor health, and leads to overpopulation and death. Every kitten born into the world snatches a avaliable home away from a kitten who already exists and now WILL DIE simply because you bred your cat and took away thier chance for a home.

Why not adopt a kitten from a breeder who has a special need or who is less adoptable - why not adopt another siamese who is a retired breeder and who needs to be placed in a new home by a reputable breeder or adopt a siamese or mix from a breed rescue or shelter. These are ways to contribute to your breed in POSSITIVE ways (by offering a home to a less desiable cat who needs one).

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While your passion is appreciated, the op has had lots of advice and will hopefully make his/her decission the right way. However harshness will do nothing to help educate anyone, they tend to get offended and leave the site, learning nothing.

Every kitten born into the world snatches a avaliable home away from a kitten who already exists and now WILL DIE simply because you bred your cat and took away thier chance for a home.

This is one of the ugliest statments I have ever heard. There is absolutly NO truth to it either. Yet everyday some one utters it and it just makes me cring every time. My kittens have never "snatched " an available home from any kitty, and because I have had x number of kittens that I have allowed to be born there wasn't x number of kittens lined up to get gased. Most of the people that have gotten a kitten from me had decided they wanted a purebred kitten and not a shelter kitten, so if they didn't get one from me they would have gotten one from another breeder, no shelter kitties have died because some one has one from me.
Becareful throwing these kinds of words around, and make sure they have atleast some truth to them before saying them, please.

I agree - there's a place in both worlds of mixed breeds and purebreds. And MOST purebred owners have a mixed breed or have had them in the past. I hate it when someone says that purebreds take a mixed breed home away. Its not true; never has been.

Originally Posted by mlynn

Your parents own a cat sanctuary - don't you know that there are enough cats in the world?. Why on earth breed a cat - that doesn't even fit the standard for the breed (appleheads are faults as they do not fit the breed standard therefore are NOT breed quality and breeding them will NOT improve the breed) - when there are millions of back yard bred kittens dying in shelters every single day?

Why not give homes to kittens that ALREADY exist as opposed to creating more. I am all for reputable breeding - but breeding just because you want to - and just because your cat is a pure bred is IMO what ruines entire breeds of cats, creates kittens of poor quality and poor health, and leads to overpopulation and death. Every kitten born into the world snatches a avaliable home away from a kitten who already exists and now WILL DIE simply because you bred your cat and took away thier chance for a home.

Why not adopt a kitten from a breeder who has a special need or who is less adoptable - why not adopt another siamese who is a retired breeder and who needs to be placed in a new home by a reputable breeder or adopt a siamese or mix from a breed rescue or shelter. These are ways to contribute to your breed in POSSITIVE ways (by offering a home to a less desiable cat who needs one).

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Wow! Such harsh words. I'm shocked!

There are plenty of people who feel we don't need to be breeding anymore F-1 Bengals that the Bengal breed is established enough. BUT you don't see anyone telling you to go adopt a less desirable bengal or one from a shelter.

I would never dream of making such a comment to someone who is interested in a certain breed. TCS is here to educate/teach and mentor people but if all we can do is criticize someone it's just going to make them leave and they will never learn.

The harsh words (and I agree they were harsh) are from a relatively new member who possibly doesn't realize this is a teaching site and that our goal is to help educate people, not turn them away.

That being said, shall we now return to the main topic of this thread and try to answer the original poster's concerns and queries.