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Good-bye to America

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
I received this in an email today.


HOW LONG DO WE HAVE?

> This is the most interesting thing I've read in a long time. The sad

> Thing about it, you can see it coming.

> I have always heard about this democracy countdown. It is interesting to

> See it in print.

>

>

> How Long Do We Have?

>

>

> About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new

> Constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at

> The University of Edinburgh , had this to say about the fall of the

> Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:

>

>

> "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot

> Exist as a permanent form of government."

>

>

> "A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that

> Voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public

> Treasury."

> "From that moment on, the majority always votes for the

> Candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with

> The result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose

> Fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

>

> "The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the

> Beginning of history, has been about 200 years"

>


> "During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through

> The following sequence:

>


> 1. From bondage to spiritual faith;

> 2. From spiritual faith to great courage;

> 3. From courage to liberty;

> 4. From liberty to abundance;

> 5. From abundance to complacency;

> 6. From complacency to apathy;

> 7. From apathy to dependence;

> 8. From dependence back into bondage"



> Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the

> "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of

> Democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already

> Having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

> If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million

> illegals and they vote, then we can >

>

> Pass this along to help everyone realize just how much is at

> Stake, knowing that apathy is the greatest danger to our freedom.

>
post #2 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I received this in an email today.


HOW LONG DO WE HAVE?

> This is the most interesting thing I've read in a long time. The sad

> Thing about it, you can see it coming.

> I have always heard about this democracy countdown. It is interesting to

> See it in print.

>

>

> How Long Do We Have?

>

>

> About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new

> Constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at

> The University of Edinburgh , had this to say about the fall of the

> Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:

>

>

> "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot

> Exist as a permanent form of government."

>

>

> "A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that

> Voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public

> Treasury."

> "From that moment on, the majority always votes for the

> Candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with

> The result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose

> Fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

>

> "The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the

> Beginning of history, has been about 200 years"

>


> "During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through

> The following sequence:

>


> 1. From bondage to spiritual faith;

> 2. From spiritual faith to great courage;

> 3. From courage to liberty;

> 4. From liberty to abundance;

> 5. From abundance to complacency;

> 6. From complacency to apathy;

> 7. From apathy to dependence;

> 8. From dependence back into bondage"



> Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the

> "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of

> Democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already

> Having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

> If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million

> illegals and they vote, then we can >

>

> Pass this along to help everyone realize just how much is at

> Stake, knowing that apathy is the greatest danger to our freedom.

>
We simply need to learn that we are not the center of the planet and become a citizen of the world. The same thing happend to the UK, France, Germany, Japan.....
post #3 of 23
Thread Starter 
Wow, you sure did not give very good examples.
post #4 of 23
All empires fall. The only question I have is if we will have any friends left when it happens to us.
post #5 of 23
I'd still like to think America has got something special. China as the next super-power? China doesn't have a history and tradition of freedom, human rights, and rule of law. Who has the package America has? Canada is probably the closest, but as much as I like Canada, I don't see them taking America's place (I doubt they even want to.) I hope we don't let this slip away.
post #6 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
All empires fall. The only question I have is if we will have any friends left when it happens to us.
I sure we will have many friends when we turn into a dictatorship.
post #7 of 23
As a sticker on my motorcycle helmet reads:

FREEDOM ISN'T FREE

People like to say that we live in a "free country."

It just isn't true.
post #8 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingersMom View Post
People like to say that we live in a "free country."
It just isn't true.
We are as free as the government says we are. Freedom is definitely not free.
The United States has gone too far into peoples lives by telling them what they can & cannot do.
These are our lives after all, you don't see us telling the gov't what to do with their policies & budgets.
Just don't get why the gov't has to be SO controllling thats all...
post #9 of 23
Thread Starter 
We don't have a clue what a real controlling government is. We are so blessed to be able to say what we are saying right now on this messageboard. I am SURE the Chinese people would tell us to "quit our whining"

We are so spoiled rotten.
post #10 of 23
I don't see what the United States has that is so "special" really. Democracy is present in many countries.

As for "freedom", yes, I would say it is a defining feature of the United States. Not as an objective reality, but as a rhetorical tool. The country was founded by people who were looking for freedom from religious persecution, but they themselves persecuted others. Then "freedom" became the freedom to own slaves. Then black people in the South became "free" but had to put up with segregation for over 100 years.
And on the international scene, the United States has often supported brutal dictatorships (Pinochet, the Taliban (until recently), Saddam Hussein (during the 80s, while his regime was at its most brutal), Suharto, etc.) Yet when oil reserves are under threat, it has used the rhetoric of "freedom" and "democracy" to justify invading a foreign country.

I think the United States will get into trouble, not because "democracy" has a built-in expiry date, but because it is working really hard to anger its enemies and alienate its potential allies. Unfortunately, that causes some of the American people to resort to ultra-patriotism ("you're either with us or with the terrorists" kind of thing) and removing some freedoms in order to defend America.
What's more, with the increasing gap between the rich and the poor, social tensions will only get worst.

It's pretty scary.
post #11 of 23
The United States is special, but it's not because of democracy. Democracy doesn't define America. Democracy was around for long before any Europeans were living in this hemisphere. What makes America is its history, its institutions, its founding. What makes America is the Constitution, the Declaration, the Bill of Rights. What makes America are the patriots who risked (and often forfeited) their lives to make it a reality, to keep it a reality. What makes America are the people who still believe in it.

Those who don't believe in America any more are welcome to go live elsewhere. (And I hope they do.)
post #12 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I sure we will have many friends when we turn into a dictatorship.
What do you mean `when' ??
post #13 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingersMom View Post
As a sticker on my motorcycle helmet reads:

FREEDOM ISN'T FREE

People like to say that we live in a "free country."

It just isn't true.
You got that right!!
post #14 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
The United States is special, but it's not because of democracy. Democracy doesn't define America. Democracy was around for long before any Europeans were living in this hemisphere. What makes America is its history, its institutions, its founding. What makes America is the Constitution, the Declaration, the Bill of Rights. What makes America are the patriots who risked (and often forfeited) their lives to make it a reality, to keep it a reality. What makes America are the people who still believe in it.
The same could be said of just about any country. All countries see themselves as based on ideals, on heroic figures who built the nation, etc. I am not saying that none of it is true. There are many ideals that inspired the creation of America and it's identity that are truly valuable.
Same could be said of many other countries.

Canada was built on the idea of peace, cooperation and its current identity embraces multiculturalism. Some of it isn't completely true - the treatment of Natives is deplorable, there is still a great deal of racism, etc.

The United States might have been built on ideals of equality and freedom, but it also has a long history of slavery, of taking land away from the Natives, etc.

As the saying goes, always remember that you are unique... just like everyone else.

Quote:
Those who don't believe in America any more are welcome to go live elsewhere. (And I hope they do.)
No worries. I'm Canadian.
But I do think that people who are critical of "America" (whatever that means) should be allowed to live there anyways. Just like Canadians should be allowed to criticize Canada.
Yes, I know there's a difference between being critical and "not believing in America" but I think the later is usually an exaggeration of someone's criticism.
post #15 of 23
Quote:
Those who don't believe in America any more are welcome to go live elsewhere. (And I hope they do.)
I see this kind of thing all the time in Australia. There are stickers people have on their cars with the background of Australia or our flag that say `If you don't like it, leave!'. They may as well say, `This car belongs to a racist, nationalist a-hole!'

Why should you be told to leave your country if you have issues with the way it is being run? Should you just accept, blindly, every injustice, every breach of your founding ideals, every bad decision your democratically elected government makes? Does wanting your country to be better, do better, act better, mean that you don't love your country? Or you should go elsewhere?

Or (God forbid) if you are from another nation or you legally have moved to a country, and you are being treated unfairly or being denied civil rights and liberties in that country, should you just accept it blindly or get out? Should you have no say in the way your new, adopted country treats you?

Hoping everyone who disagrees with you will leave, hoping that those who have an independent voice will get out, hoping that those who dare to stand up for what they believe in will go `back to where they came from or just go away' is the first step to creating a nationalistic, oppressive, parochial, prejudiced, blind and selfish nation.

If that's what people who say these kinds of things or put these kinds of stickers on their cars want, then THEY are welcome to leave, and go find a country that will support their supremacist ideals.
post #16 of 23
Disagreement is welcome. Criticism is welcome. Saying the country is done, that it's going the way of all empires, that it's turning into a dictatorship indicates the writer has given up on the country. Anybody who's given up on the country, who thinks their time and effort is wasted, might as well go and live elsewhere. Obviously they don't want to vest anything in America. If you find something wrong in America, Americans work to fix it, to make it better; you don't give up on it, you don't toss it on the trash heap of history.

This doesn't apply exclusively to America. Anybody who has given up on their country, who thinks their country is no longer worthy of them, may just as well go find some other country more worthy. Though I doubt they can.
post #17 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
All empires fall. The only question I have is if we will have any friends left when it happens to us.
lol when it comes to that, there are no friends. So far for the most part only America took the time to rebulid Germany and japan. errr, and we where never a empire

Any way, i dont think we are even a nation anymore. We sure dont act like one. JUSt in name only anymore
post #18 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
I see this kind of thing all the time in Australia. There are stickers people have on their cars with the background of Australia or our flag that say `If you don't like it, leave!'. They may as well say, `This car belongs to a racist, nationalist a-hole!'
:
Gee , you missed the point. Since when is love of country have anything to do with being racist.........

a white, black, asian, mexcain, etc, can all be american, or australian etc.

but maybe you enjoyed being sold out by your goverment, but i for one do not.
post #19 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
Gee , you missed the point. Since when is love of country have anything to do with being racist.........

a white, black, asian, mexcain, etc, can all be american, or australian etc.

but maybe you enjoyed being sold out by your goverment, but i for one do not.
Perhaps you missed MY point. I welcome anyone and everyone to this country, and don't ever tell them that `if they don't like it, leave!'. These stickers are racist because they refer to our immigration policy and our attitude towards people of non-Australian birth. This is the only time I'll ever say this, because I comment on the US all the time, but if you don't live here, you're not really qualified to comment on something so local to Australia - such as these stickers and what they refer to.

And unfortunately nationalism (which is not the same as patriotism) goes hand-in-hand with racism in many cases.
post #20 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
Perhaps you missed MY point. I welcome anyone and everyone to this country, and don't ever tell them that `if they don't like it, leave!'. These stickers are racist because they refer to our immigration policy and our attitude towards people of non-Australian birth. This is the only time I'll ever say this, because I comment on the US all the time, but if you don't live here, you're not really qualified to comment on something so local to Australia - such as these stickers and what they refer to.

And unfortunately nationalism (which is not the same as patriotism) goes hand-in-hand with racism in many cases.

funny i say your not really qualified all the time to say stuff about america

but anyway, your policy is not as open as the US is, Heck we just let people walk over the river, then we are expected to pay everything for them. If the people coming to your country are legal, then i dont see what the issue is.Really only thing i ever saw was with some muslims leaders and there statements,women are meat statment comes to mind, the rape gang thing from a few years ago.... are those what is causing the issue?

i really dont unstand the people who seem to hate America and live here keep trying to rip it apart, They wont like what they find in 90% of the rest of the world(that was not directed at you)
post #21 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
...`if they don't like it, leave!'. These stickers are racist ...
They're not racist or supremacist here. Or anything to do with immigration. They're about loyalty, about allegiance. Every American pledges allegiance "to the flag and the republic it stands for" and when that's gone, there's no point in being American anymore, is there? Sure it's not perfect, but if you're not willing to make it better, if you don't think it's the best place for you to be, then leave.
post #22 of 23
Quote:
funny i say your not really qualified all the time to say stuff about america
I know - that's why I decided to qualify my comment first.

Quote:
but anyway, your policy is not as open as the US is, Heck we just let people walk over the river, then we are expected to pay everything for them. If the people coming to your country are legal, then i dont see what the issue is.Really only thing i ever saw was with some muslims leaders and there statements,women are meat statment comes to mind, the rape gang thing from a few years ago.... are those what is causing the issue?

i really dont unstand the people who seem to hate America and live here keep trying to rip it apart, They wont like what they find in 90% of the rest of the world(that was not directed at you)
I don't know what the issue is, Bruce. Our immigration policy is a joke, our attitude towards migrants and refugees is shameful - I just don't know. I guess this country has a racist, bigoted leader, and the many Australian people who have always felt that way but haven't come out and said it before now have free rein to act and speak however they want.

This is a huge country with not many people and parochial, old-fashioned, out-dated and bigoted ideals, for the most part. I still love it, I still love being Australian, I would never leave, but I am ashamed of what we are turning into, and will do anything to change that.
post #23 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
I don't know what the issue is, Bruce. Our immigration policy is a joke, our attitude towards migrants and refugees is shameful - I just don't know. I guess this country has a racist, bigoted leader, and the many Australian people who have always felt that way but haven't come out and said it before now have free rein to act and speak however they want.
.
Part of free speech, is allowing someone to say stuff you hate. If he is as bigoted as you say, they why allow the so many new people in?,, would it not be if he was that bad, the goverment would block it? I know that several books there where banned(if i remember right) but those where books on how to commit terror acts? sorry i dont remember the titles.


Anytime there large numbers of new types of people flood into a country there will be issues. People dont like what they dont know. Really even today in you go into a school here,at lunch time for the most part, whites sit with whites, blacks with blacks, often only the spot teams will sit in mixed tables.
People will go to where they think there is something in common.

I do enjoy a those communties, little italy, china town, etc, the ethic color , foods that come in. I do not have a issue with any legal person that comes in. Who wants to be part of america.. The issue in this country now, is that many of these people comping in do not want to be American, and do not come in legal....

I will say if a person does not want to be a american then DO NOT come here you are not welcome....lol if that makes me racist so be it.
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