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17th child born, to Arkansas family - Page 2

post #31 of 55
So far as I'm concerned they exploit their kids and family in order to make money to support the family.

Those kids have no life. It's not up to older kids to raise their younger sibblings while the parents keep pumping out more and more.

If you read that article, they indicate that they want even more kids.
post #32 of 55
I am not suprised at all.

I think they're selfish also.
I watched a documentary on them awhile back and what suprised me was the father had all the boys helping build the new house.
So how were they getting school work done after being outside building a house all day?
I think that's something called child labor if I'm not mistaken?

I could go on and on but I wont!
post #33 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by noludoru View Post
But after you've had 5 kids I think you have inflicted your genes upon the world enough and certainly ought to have mandatory birth control.
MANDATORY BIRTH CONTROL? Are you kidding?

You want your government to be able to call you up and say, "Okay, Mrs. Smith, our records show you had your fifth child last month. Please report for sterilization at 9:00 next Tuesday."

That is not America, that is not democracy, that is not freedom of choice, that is not human rights -- that is not even human decency. That's CHINA, for heaven's sake!

And it's also not necessary. If we didn't let the most puritannical 10% of our population dictate our principles in this area, we would long ago have instituted realistic sex education and birth control training, in several stages designed to be appropriate for elementary school right on up through college (yes, college, to reach those whose parents have kept them in the dark). That would eliminate a great many unwanted pregnancies, and a lot of STDs as well.

Then, by providing girls with a safe place to go for responsible help that does not require parental involvement, we would eliminate a great many more "children having children."

Yes, I understand the alarm of parents at the idea of their daughters making unilateral decisions of such life-changing import -- but many of these girls live in horrible family situations where they are literally afraid for their lives if anyone finds out they're pregnant! That's why we end up with newborn babies stuffed in dumpsters instead of taken to safe places or given up for adoption. Once a girl is pregnant, she's facing decisions she'll have to live with for the rest of her life -- and we must allow her easy access to the unbiased information and counseling that will allow her to make the right decisions for her... not the decisions her parents may want to impose upon her.

Overpopulation in the third world is largely the result of ignorance, religious dogma, and lack of access to birth control -- we all know that. But what many of us fail to recognize is that (to a somewhat lesser degree) we have imposed EXACTLY the same ignorance, dogma, and lack of access on our OWN young people!

One time I was talking to a coworker who had a teenage daughter, and she told me she had pulled her daughter out of school on the days when sex education classes were held. I asked her why, and she said she didn't want her daughter to "get ideas." Like the ideas don't appear on their own when the hormones kick in! Sex education classes (if they're done right) will help kids cope with those "ideas" in safe and rational ways! But this woman wanted her 14-year-old daughter to remain ignorant.

Another woman I spoke to once said that when she found condoms in her son's dresser, she threw them out and told her son that if she ever caught him with them again, she would kick him out of the house. I said, "But if he's going to be sexually active, don't you want him to use protection?" She said she couldn't stop him from having sex, but she could make sure that if he did, he would "pay the price."

I was flabbergasted. I said, "You mean you'd rather your son get a girl pregnant than use protection?" She said, "He'd sure learn about the consequences, wouldn't he?"

And then I said, "What if he catches AIDS because you took away his condoms? Surely you don't want your son to die for having premarital sex!" And I swear to god, this woman said, "That's his decision. If he can't keep it in his pants until he's married, he pays the price."

This is the kind of self-righteous idiocy that has kept us from handling the issue of underage sex rationally and responsibly in this country.
post #34 of 55
That is just strange. They sure make up for the kids my fiance & I dont want! I think its very selfish of them, but to each their own. Their life doesnt affect mine in any which way, so they can go right ahead.
post #35 of 55
Nolodoru -- sorry for the huge rant above, it isn't intended as a personal attack... but I can imagine how it might feel that way.
post #36 of 55
They had them on DHC a couple of years ago and OMG they are so Organized its unbelievable, and she looks pretty darn good for having that many..Wow when to stop huh lol
post #37 of 55
I can't read the reponses as all the judgemental responses will make me annoyed, I just wanted to add I am suprised this isn't in IMO yet!
post #38 of 55
If it wasn't for the private and commerical donations they receive, in addition to the money they get from selling their big family story, they wouldn't be able to support that number of children.

They are using their kids as a way to support their family and to have even more kids, and I find that disgusting.
post #39 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dixie_Darlin View Post
I watched a documentary on them awhile back and what suprised me was the father had all the boys helping build the new house.
So how were they getting school work done after being outside building a house all day?
I think that's something called child labor if I'm not mistaken?
First, you don't know, based on 30 seconds of video, that they were "building a house all day." The younger ones may have helped out for an hour or two and gone back to their studies, or they may have doubled up on another day to make up time -- part of the beauty of home-schooling.

Child labor, in and of itself, is not illegal, just highly restricted so as to avoid sweatshop-type exploitation, and a bit less restricted if that labor is in the context of a family business. And in this context, the children are actually learning valuable skills -- construction requires a working knowledge of mathematics, geometry, physics, which are all components of sound engineering.

I will say I was a bit concerned to see some of the younger boys operating power tools, but again, I can't pass judgement based on a ten-second video clip. For all I know, dad could have spent two days teaching them how to use them safely, and had an older boy standing by to help when necessary -- everyone knows "danger" makes for good TV, and it could have even been a shot setup by the producer of the documentary.

As far as thinking it's selfish, put the shoe on the other foot. The Duggars may think it's selfish of you to choose NOT to procreate, but they will never say so. Their religious beliefs tell them not to criticize (judge not lest ye be judged). It is their RIGHT to have as many or as few children as they choose, and as long as they're not reliant on taxpayers' money they should be allowed to continue as they see fit.

And as far as individual attention to each child? I am a single mother. I MUST work to provide for my daughter. Thus I cannot provide individual attention to my daughter 24/7, and unfortunately must rely on a daycare provider, whom I truly appreciate, to do so in my absence. NONE of these children has ever been in daycare. Their father works to provide financially for them, and their mother works in the home to see that they are provided for emotionally, and that they are educated. In mother's place is a sibling, a blood relative who loves them as much as their mother does, and who enjoys spending time with them. Would you rather the older siblings "had a chance to be kids," by vegetating in front of a video game, or surfing the internet IM'ing friends all day with lousy grammer and syntax, or going out and getting into trouble?

A pp said it best when she commented on the Mennonite families that she's seen in action. These children are well-adjusted, happy and intelligent. Naive in the ways of the world? perhaps, but they have a solid foundation of family that may just make them the envy of their peers, many of whom are crying out for help in the absence of adequate parenting.
post #40 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natalie_ca View Post

Those kids have no life. It's not up to older kids to raise their younger sibblings while the parents keep pumping out more and more.
How do you know they dont have a life? Are you with that family 24/7? You're basing it off what you have seen and read. Maybe the kids also dont really care. They like to be around their family. When I was younger, I really didnt have a life either. In high school, I went to school, and came home. I never did anything on weekends or weeknights and I really didnt care.

As for the older kids "raising" the younger kids, they are learning responsibility. They are learning to cook dinner, do laundry, and clean house when some people a lot older than them dont even know how to do that much.

As long as they love their children and give them all they need in the world, both physically and mentally, without being on assistance, then that is all that matters.
post #41 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by cococat View Post
I can't read the reponses as all the judgemental responses will make me annoyed, I just wanted to add I am suprised this isn't in IMO yet!
There is a thread just like this one in IMO already
post #42 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liza24 View Post
the bible says to to have sex for the reason of precreation only.
just a little side note, but that is not actually correct read "Song of Solomens" -the Bible talks about the husband enjoying his wife's body and vise versa all throughout and how sex is a positive thing in marriage, not just for creating children (although yes that is the main design for sex according to the Bible.)
post #43 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingersMom View Post
Meanwhile, there are how many unwanted children in the world that need adopting?

I'm serious - SPAY AND NEUTER STUPID PEOPLE!!!
I agree. There's no need to have that many children. But if you are fortunate to have enough money to care for all of them, why not adopt some?
post #44 of 55
I just worry about those kids going off to college and having so many freedoms and going wild... It cant be easy on them to have that big of an adjustment.
post #45 of 55
Since no one else has raised this question, I will:

If you want to "spay and neuter stupid people" -- who gets to decide which people are stupid, and what criteria will be used?

It's easy to toss out dismissive judgments like that one. But if you think it through long enough to grasp what you've said, you will surely realize that you do not want to live in a society that would even consider such an outrage.

Or if you do... then America is not the country for you.
post #46 of 55
When I first read the title of the thread, I thought "Oh, 17 cats? Big deal, my crazy "cat lady" neighbor has more than that!" Then when I read the thread and found, no, they're actually referring to children... oooooh. First, I can't imagine, as a woman, how her body could endure birthing so frequently.... ooowwwiieee.

Then I thought, this is too close to the three conversations you shouldn't have unless you're up for a heated battle. Religion, Politics, and Abortion... Oh, 4, I forgot about Illegal Immigration.

As with all conversations in regards to the hot 4, I understand the perspectives of both sides, and unfortunately, I have yet to see a reasonable solution to any of them.
post #47 of 55
I just think it's nuts. If she wants to have seventeen kids, then why shouldn't she? I don't agree with it, but if she wants to destroy her own body then so be it.
post #48 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moz View Post
I just think it's nuts. If she wants to have seventeen kids, then why shouldn't she? I don't agree with it, but if she wants to destroy her own body then so be it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolPetunia View Post
Since no one else has raised this question, I will:

If you want to "spay and neuter stupid people" -- who gets to decide which people are stupid, and what criteria will be used?

It's easy to toss out dismissive judgments like that one. But if you think it through long enough to grasp what you've said, you will surely realize that you do not want to live in a society that would even consider such an outrage.

Or if you do... then America is not the country for you.
Um yeah, that!
post #49 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolPetunia View Post
Since no one else has raised this question, I will:

If you want to "spay and neuter stupid people" -- who gets to decide which people are stupid, and what criteria will be used?

It's easy to toss out dismissive judgments like that one. But if you think it through long enough to grasp what you've said, you will surely realize that you do not want to live in a society that would even consider such an outrage.

Or if you do... then America is not the country for you.
Well said. I don't want ANYONE or any government for that matter deciding they want to "spay" me or anyone else....doesn't China have a regulation on how many children families are allowed???And look at how that "brilliant" idea turned out
post #50 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natalie_ca View Post
If it wasn't for the private and commerical donations they receive, in addition to the money they get from selling their big family story, they wouldn't be able to support that number of children.

They are using their kids as a way to support their family and to have even more kids, and I find that disgusting.

I agree.
post #51 of 55
Nat, Dani, I wasn't aware that the Duggar family had posted their financial statements online for the world to see??? :dontknow: If I recall correctly (It's been a few months since I saw this) Jim-Bob is in real estate, which depending on the market can be a pretty lucrative business. And with shrewd investment, it's possible his family is pretty financially stable, even without what I'm sure is modest compensation from a cable TV network for a one-hour special interest story two or three times a year.

As another PP has mentioned, we are NOT in their home 24/7, and the snippets that we do see on TV are just that, snippets. Ask sarahp how much of her interview actually made the six-oclock news that night, and how much wound up on the cutting-room floor? Media can be manipulated to make you believe what the producers want you to believe. It may be grossly inaccurate w/r/t their day-to-day life.

As for those who say this family is cult-ish: I agree that this family's beliefs are probably in the extreme minority of Christians, but that doesn't make them a cult. They are simply different, more fundamental in their beliefs. Fundamentalism =/= Bad. I will refer you again to the pp who mentioned the Mennonites she's encountered. If the Duggars are raising their children to be responsible citizens, WHO CARES what the kids are doing when they're 'being kids' if that's what they enjoy doing?
post #52 of 55
I realize I'm not in their home 24/7....don't have finanacial statements....etc.

IMO, that is just plain wrong. I'm sorry...but 17 children competing for mom & dads attention? I would HATE to be a part of that family.....it would drive me nuts! How do the kids ever get any "me" time? Do the kids ever get to be kids? Makes me sad...
post #53 of 55
I d0nt kn0w.... All I can think 0f which might be rude, but my m0ther said this t0 her dearest Aunty as she had 14 children... "W0uldn't y0u be a bit l00se by n0w?"


but as l0ng as they are financially stable and can take care 0f the children I d0n't see a pr0blem with it!

0nce again s0rry ab0ut my keyb0ard being br0ken!
post #54 of 55
I commented on this family in the IMO thread so I won't repeat it all here, except to say that I think it's up to them how many children they have if they can support them BUT I do worry that the children have a very insular life and will not have a lot of real choices of what they do as adults due to their limited eduation and social skills. And by socials skills I mean the ability to mix with people who have different values and opinions to themselves. By being home schooled and only really mixing with each other and others in their church, I'm not sure how well equipped they'll be to go away to college or live and work in a large city.
post #55 of 55
As far as the cultish aspect of it, I have always found Quiverfulls to be slightly cultish, IMO there is something wrong with a religion that tries to bring the world back to 'biblical hierarchy and order' with a subserviant woman, as many children as God blesses them with and a 'breadwinning' father, but it is their religion and their choice.

That being said, when you have to have a chart on the wall just to make sure that each child brushed their teeth (and this 'chart' was something the Duggar's made money from selling to other QF's to ensure everything gets done in a large family) you have too many children. If you can't manage to make sure they got their math lesson, brushed their teeth, put on their PJs etc, IMO, you are not able to give them the love they need and deserve.

As far as their finances, from a previous documentary I watched, it seems that they are at least financially stable and were before having so many children. He was a politician and is into real estate, both buying/selling and renting and available on contract to find the perfect match for your needs etc. They also have made more than a 'modest' amount from TV shows and have had many 'donations' (monetary and actual 'things') as a result of appearing on shows... many corporations give donations to lots of places so as long as they have the money, not from the state system, to care for them, I don't care where he gets the money.
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