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F1 Bengal Girl - Page 2

post #31 of 52
One question, when you mate two F4 cats together, where they both have atleast 6.25% ALC blood doesn't the ALC blood % effectively freeze then and stay at atleast 6.25%?

I mean once you hit F4 it doesn't it only go down further if you mate to non bengal cats with no ALC blood at all?

The way I've understood it so far is that you take the % in the parents, add up and then divide by two. This is a rough guess of course because you can't know exactly what genes end up in the kittens.

Wouldn't that make most bengal cats have around the 6.25% ALC blood since I don't think I've ever heard of anyone breeding a non-bengal to F4s since the F4s are fertile?

I'll happily be corrected if I'm wrong though
post #32 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siggav View Post
One question, when you mate two F4 cats together, where they both have atleast 6.25% ALC blood doesn't the ALC blood % effectively freeze then and stay at atleast 6.25%?

I mean once you hit F4 it doesn't it only go down further if you mate to non bengal cats with no ALC blood at all?

The way I've understood it so far is that you take the % in the parents, add up and then divide by two. This is a rough guess of course because you can't know exactly what genes end up in the kittens.

Wouldn't that make most bengal cats have around the 6.25% ALC blood since I don't think I've ever heard of anyone breeding a non-bengal to F4s since the F4s are fertile?

I'll happily be corrected if I'm wrong though
Well yes and no. There were many outcrosses along the way, with breeding of SBT bengals to other breeds to bring in certain genes. Kahekili has at least 6 E. Mau's in his 10 generation pedigree. (I unitentionally left that part out of my last post) So the blood level varies to a great degree, but your theory would be mostly correct if only F4's were bred to each other. It's definitely not an exact science and each SBT bengal will have a different level of ALC blood based on the pedigree.
IMO, if the ALC blood percentage is 6 or less percent, it's negligable. And of course you're right, it's the genes that matter and only DNA testing can establish what kitten has what.
post #33 of 52
Thread Starter 
Ok here is the daily update!

Ebi is becoming more comfortable and making less noise. She starting eating more and her stools are fine. Looks like baby was just a little nervous.

To be honest, I am amazed at how much love this little creature has for us already. When I come in for our morning time, she is sooooooo excited. We play and cuddle and she just loves nuzzling under my neck. I am going to have my fiance take a little video so you can see how "wild" this beast is with us

The interesting thing is she had bonded equally to both of us. If we are both in the room at the same time, baby just spends time running back and forth for rubs.

We gave her a chance to explore our place last night, and it was awesome watching her leap around. She is not skittish at all. My favorite thing is to get down on all fours and wait for the Ebi insano face rub! She will swirl around my face purring like a maniac.

After her exploration we decided it was time for her to meet Pepe. We opened the bedroom and let Pepe wander out. They met in the living room and it was a pretty good first meeting. I will break it out into a play by play

1. Pepe walks up to Ebi
2. Ebi postures
3. They get so close there noses touch
4. Ebi grows
5. Pepe hisses (no posturing or puffy tail)
6. Staring contest for a minute or two
7. Pepe gets bored and wanders away
8. Ebi follows Pepe to the window and sneaks up on her
9. Pepe hisses again
10. Ebi stands there and growls

We had to put her back in the bathroom cause of her cold, but over all I thought it was a great first meeting. Pepe was so relaxed and only responded to Ebi’s actions. I think that they are going to be good friends

Well that’s all I have for now…..we will have meeting two tonight!!!
post #34 of 52
Thread Starter 
Also.....she is perfectly litter trained. We have had no accidents yet. We even have towels and t shirts on the floor for her to relax on. To be totally honest she seems more domestic than most other kittens I have met...besides her "roar"

Thanks for all the positive words!!! Seems like this is an excellent community.
post #35 of 52
Is there ever going to be a time when F1's won't be produced anymore? Will the Bengal breed hit a point where more wild blood isn't needed?
post #36 of 52
IMO there really should not be a need to be breeding directly to the ALC any more. It just sets things back as far as generations needed to be shown.
post #37 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopeHacker View Post
Simba has that roar, but it's only when he gets bored and wants attention. He can let off with some of the loudest most annoying sounds in the world, when he's trying to get attention or when he's trying to keep me from sleeping. Angel can also be pretty loud when she's talking to me.

Luna's just as bad and she's a Domestic Shorthair.



Eh, so maybe she doesn't the "roar", but she is VERY vocal.
post #38 of 52
Wow, she is really gorgeous!
post #39 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telynn View Post
Is there ever going to be a time when F1's won't be produced anymore? Will the Bengal breed hit a point where more wild blood isn't needed?
I asked this very same question of Nial not too long ago...and he agreed that there's no reason to keep taking ALCs (which are natural to Malaysia) out of the jungle anymore!
post #40 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abymummy View Post
I asked this very same question of Nial not too long ago...and he agreed that there's no reason to keep taking ALCs (which are natural to Malaysia) out of the jungle anymore!
Right, I think we can do just fine with the number of ALC's we have within the breeding pool right now. There is currently no justifiable reason to keep importing new ALC's into bengal breeding programs.

One could argue that there is no longer any reason to use any ALC in breeding programs for bengals, but keep in mind that this breed, even though it's nearly 40 years old, is still developing. The standard is still changing.

Case in point, at the show this weekend, a melanistic bengal was being shown in "new trait" category. Melanistic = All black bengal with ghost spots that are only visible in the right lighting.

I myself am getting at least one F2 later this year, from an ALC that isn't in any of my lines. I will use these girls to re-inforce white bellies and small ears in my lines. The first kits will be F3's and not elligible for show, but I will retain the ones that we feel are show quality and then breed a next generation of show cats.

We will never duplicate the ALC, but the goal is to come as close as possible, while always maintaining the predictable lovable nature of the bengal cat.
post #41 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siggav View Post
She's gorgeous! and I'm glad to hear you have another bengal already. I think the early generation cats should only be kept by people who really know what they're getting themselves into and having lots of exposure to "normal" bengals is definately a part of that.
Hmmm. So you disagree with this breeders claim that its all about sociability and not blood?

http://bamboobengals.tripod.com/Kittens.htm
post #42 of 52
I'm not saying the early generation cats can't be social and sweet and make good pets for the right people.

They are however insanely energetic (Nial's F1 girl is active enough to tire out his other bengals) and can have unique quirks like preferring to do their business in water rather than in litterboxes. They also bond very strongly to their peope and it's hard for them if they have to switch owners.

A lot of them also don't do well on dried cat food and need to be fed a raw diet. SBT bengals can be too energetic and active for people who don't know what they're getting themselves into, the early generation cats even more so.
post #43 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siggav View Post
I'm not saying the early generation cats can't be social and sweet and make good pets for the right people.

They are however insanely energetic (Nial's F1 girl is active enough to tire out his other bengals) and can have unique quirks like preferring to do their business in water rather than in litterboxes. They also bond very strongly to their peope and it's hard for them if they have to switch owners.

A lot of them also don't do well on dried cat food and need to be fed a raw diet. SBT bengals can be too energetic and active for people who don't know what they're getting themselves into, the early generation cats even more so.
Ah, ok, thanks!
post #44 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by alwaysaangel View Post
Hmmm. So you disagree with this breeders claim that its all about sociability and not blood?

http://bamboobengals.tripod.com/Kittens.htm
I think that breeder is operating on a number of "half-truths" there. With some cats, no matter whether they're Bengal or a domestic short hair, or any breed, no matter how much socialization they receive.. they may just simply *not* be friendly. Socialization is obviously an important factor, however.

There are a number of factors that go into how social a cat is, and while making sure to socialize them well when they're young definitely has a large (usually) effect, things such as cat's personality, mother's attitude toward people, genetics.. imo, that all plays a part in how "social" a cat ends up. Just because one takes a cat at an early age and works very hard on socializing it, does not mean that it will end up being the most social cat you've ever had. There are some cases where the babies just simply must be removed from the mother, but I'd say that's a less frequent situation. And, if her/his cats are as "tame and socialized" as they say they are, then they should have no problem with getting the babies and socializing them without removing them from the mother.

I absolutely disagree with taking a kitten off of it's mother if there is nothing wrong with the mother, or the mother's relationship with people and/or her babies. IMO, and some will most likely disagree, kittens should not be removed from their mothers before 12 weeks optimally (8 weeks at the earliest but not the preferred time), and research shows that bottle fed babies are often not as socially *or* physically healthy ofttimes as babies who remain with their mother. The mother teaches them crucial socializing behavior, surivival, and other things that humans just often can't teach.

I also absolutely disagree with that person's view of a cat will never be trustworthy in using a litter box if it *ever* once does not use it. That's absolutely wrong, especially when it's babies who are still learning. It's also wrong when applied to adult cats. Almost all litterbox issues can be solved.

This person either knows about cats (which I don't think is the case) and is lying just to get the clientelle or just simply doesn't know as much as they profess to know on the webpage. Some of what they say is correct as a generalization, but the majority of it is simply incorrect and really, based on what they say .. I'd hesitate to get a kitten from them. Well, actually, I'd more than hesitate.

I'd be interested in seeing what Nial thinks about this.
post #45 of 52
I've read the info on Bamboo's site as well. Can't say I agree with all of it, but breeders rarely agree with each other on everything.

I don't really get the whole taking the kits away and bottle feeding them thing. If you have a social dam as the mom, the kits will learn from her reactions to the humans tending to her and they will not behave fearfully.

I believe two major factors contribute to well socialized kittens:

1. You must handle the kittens from day one, even though they can't hear or see you yet, they can smell and become somewhat accustomed to your touch. But the key thing is, that the queen becomes comfortable with your handling of her kits and she will be relaxed when the kittens are 2 weeks old and really start imprinting on her reaction and their experiences with you.

2. Between the ages of 2 and 6 weeks is when kittens learn to trust and they are watching carefully how mom reacts to the presence of us, the giants. They learn quickly that people are fun, bring food and that their mom enjoys us being around.

We do however have to keep in mind that a F1 kitten is half ALC and the ALC isn't wired to be friends with people. IMO, a pure ALC kitten would absolutely have to be bottle fed to bond to humans and become social.
That being said, I think it takes extra effort on the part of the breeder producing F1's to socialize them completely. This could mean bottle feedings in addition to allowing the kits to nurse on mom. And more than likely lots more time spent with the kittens as they develope. I'm sure it's labor intensive to produce social F1 kittens to offer to the public.

The Bamboo website owner may be over or under stating some things, but I don't think he's doing it in an effort to deceive. He's obviously proud of his accomplishments and since there is so much competition out there, he wants to get the word out. Alot of what breeders state on their websites is opinion and there is much disagreement in the bengal world about all sorts of things related to EG bengals and the SBT bengals.
The guy that owns Bamboo is also the president of The International Bengal Breeders Association, so I really do think he's reputable and I would certainly feel comfortable sending people I know to get an EG bengal from him.
post #46 of 52
Nial,

Some of the points you make are valid in EVERY cat - no matter what the breed! I always handle kittens from day one and they are never taken from mom - she decides when to wean. And they don't leave my home till 4 months old!

I've had many compliments about how well behaved the kittens are compared to kittens owners have gotten in the past at younger then 10 weeks old
post #47 of 52
I believe that website said that he pulls all his babies at less than 21 days, even f2's and f3's. I can potentially see it with f1s, although I'm still a little iffy on that point myself. I'll defer to your knowledge as a breeder on that one, though. I still overall disagree with removing them from the mother unless absolutely necessary. I would agree with the mixture of bottle feeding and nursing, as the kitten would still retain all the benefits of nursing and staying with mom.

I still completely disagree with the litterbox thing, though.

I'm certain his accomplishments are commendable and that he's worked hard to get there. I'm also certain he's not a BYB, but, I still wouldn't endorse getting a cat that was removed from it's mother and bottle fed only at an early age. I still think those kittens are going to run into problems.. it just may not be the typical ones. Swapping one problem for another doesn't really make it any better in my book.

they surely are beautiful babies, though.

Didn't you just get an early generation, Nial?
post #48 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAreBetter View Post

Didn't you just get an early generation, Nial?
Sort-of, in a weird way.

My friend out west bought an F1 to breed with two of my SBT boys, Odin and Kahekili. I sent the boys out to her, as we want them all on the same turf for awhile, so the boys feel comfortable as well as the girl. ( I should probably make it clear, that they won't both breed her at the same time!)

The idea is, when the F1 becomes pregnant, she comes to us to deliver and raise the kittens because my wife Teri stays at home, so she can spend tons of time socializing the kits. Problem is, I'm concerned about transporting the F1 queen and having her get stressed and abort. So, we may be rethinking that plan.
At any rate, were going to keep back some F2 girls from the breedings for our program here.

Right now Teri and I are living vicariously through our friend enjoying every moment with her F1.
post #49 of 52
Hmm, sounds like a road trip... or do you think the road trip would stress her as much as flying?
post #50 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAreBetter View Post
Hmm, sounds like a road trip... or do you think the road trip would stress her as much as flying?
Good question. I think it's all going to depend on her. We'll have to wait and see how she is with new things. We've got a ways to go anyway, she's still young.
Kahekili has bred to her F3 girl though and she's due pretty soon. I'm looking foward to those babies.
post #51 of 52
Thread Starter 
Just an update on Ebi!

She is doing great, we have had no more litter box mistakes. We have just finished her treatment for tritrichomonas and she seems to have taken to it.

Her URI is totally gone and is eating a TON of food now.

She is very social, not skittish at all. We have had 4 people over at once and everyone got special head butts and rubs. She really seems to trust the "giants"

Another couple weeks and she should have full run of the house, we let her have supervised visits with Pepe (as to not infect her) and they seem to be getting along great.

I think the main thing about living with an EG is just having the time to put into it. So far she is an absolute doll. I would not trade her for the world.
post #52 of 52
thank you for the update
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