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What do you think of the guy who leaked the Abu Ghraib photos?

post #1 of 26
7/24/07 at 9:49pm
Thread Starter 
We were watching 60 minutes tonight (well it was from a few weeks ago that we just watched). They had a story about the guy who found the photos and turned them over to the investigators and how he had to sleep with a gun under his pillow because so many people (including family) were against him for turning in his buddies.

They showed a guy from his home town who knew him who said that he believed that guy was wrong for turning over the photos because you should never put foreigners ahead of your buddies or something ridiculous.

He's had to move towns and leave the Army because so many people were against him.

I can't believe he has faced this much opposition for his actions. He absolutely should have turned the photos over, and nobody should get away with that sort of disgusting behaviour, ESPECIALLY if they're military prisoners and it's military personnel charged with their care!!

And even worse, I can't believe he was told he would be protected and his identity hidden, and he was fine until he was with his unit watching a Rumsfeld interview talking about the Abu Ghraib when stupid Rumsfeld thanked this guy by name!!! What sort of fools made his name so publicly available when he was told it would be kept quiet??

I wonder what other horrendous acts of mistreatment have occurred that have been kept quiet because of the whole "don't rat on your buddies" train of thought.

What do you think?
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post #2 of 26
7/24/07 at 10:15pm
there are times to rat out people and time not to.
This was one of those times where the right thing to do was come forward with the information.

i never liked Rumsfeld and i am sure he said onpurpsoe,
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post #3 of 26
7/24/07 at 10:18pm
I think he did the right thing. He risked his life by doing so, but he did the right thing, no doubt in my mind.
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post #4 of 26
7/25/07 at 5:43am
The sad thing is that if the chain of command worked the way it was supposed to then he wouldn't have had to leak the pictures. IMO he did the absolute right thing by taking the pictures to the press.
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post #5 of 26
7/25/07 at 5:57am
I think, good on him. He must have the courage of a lion to do something like that. He deserves a medal, IMO.
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post #6 of 26
7/25/07 at 7:53am
I agree Lookingglass.
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post #7 of 26
7/25/07 at 10:21am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
I think, good on him. He must have the courage of a lion to do something like that. He deserves a medal, IMO.
That's the funny thing - he did get one. While he was sleeping with a gun under his pillow and had a team of security guards following him and his wife around everywhere keeping them safe, he got a medal of courage or something like that for coming forward with the info.
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post #8 of 26
7/25/07 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
There are times to rat out people, and times not to.
This was one of those times where the right thing to do was come forward with the information.

I never liked Rumsfeld, and I am sure he said it on purpose.


What's sad is that everybody who witnessed what was going on there, or saw the photos, had a moral obligation to blow the whistle, and most failed to do so. Attitudes like that permitted the Nazis, and not just them, to commit atrocities, and it sickens me that that particular lesson has apparently been forgotten by many.

To his credit, this man didn't forget how crucial it is to follow one's conscience.
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post #9 of 26
7/25/07 at 12:05pm
Thread Starter 
Are there any Army/Defence people here who'd like to comment? Is it an unspoken military code that you shouldn't rat on your fellow soldiers even if what you believe what they're doing is wrong?

That kind of attitude that you should honour your fellow soldiers by covering up for them is what gives the military a bad name in my opinion!
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post #10 of 26
7/25/07 at 12:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahp View Post
Are there any Army/Defence people here who'd like to comment? Is it an unspoken military code that you shouldn't rat on your fellow soldiers even if what you believe what they're doing is wrong?

That kind of attitude that you should honour your fellow soldiers by covering up for them is what gives the military a bad name in my opinion!
I'm not in the Army, but my husband, father and mother were all military people.

In the Army if one sees something that is wrong here is what you do: 1. Go to the immediate comander and tell them. 2. If they do nothing then you go higher and higher until someone listens.

To be honest I think this guy went through the chain of command and NOTHING was done and that's why he leaked the pictures.
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post #11 of 26
7/25/07 at 8:26pm
I was in the Army (yes, the reserves only, but still part of the Army) for three years and that kind of thing is frowned upon, for sure. Absolutely. In fact, a great example of this kind of thing is the film `A Few Good Men' - where it shows exactly what can be at stake if you speak up - especially if you go through your chain of command.

I think that he went to the press because it was the only way of having this exposed where his life would not be in as much danger. I think going through the chain of command, well, he might well have ended up dead instead of just the threats and the required security.

One of my favourite quotes is `All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing'. I try to live by that as much as I can and I think that this was a good man who simply refused to do nothing.
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post #12 of 26
7/25/07 at 8:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lookingglass View Post
I'm not in the Army, but my husband, father and mother were all military people.

In the Army if one sees something that is wrong here is what you do: 1. Go to the immediate comander and tell them. 2. If they do nothing then you go higher and higher until someone listens.

To be honest I think this guy went through the chain of command and NOTHING was done and that's why he leaked the pictures.
You do have the right to disobey a unlawful order.
i would have seen some of those orders as just that, and refused to obey them.

that it of itself would have taken things into the light. As if they pressed charges it would go to court.
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post #13 of 26
7/27/07 at 9:17am
I was in the USMC.
I do not want to get into a battle here, but I do not think he should have leaked the pictures.
People tend to forget, the US military are not the only people who 'mistreat' prisoners! It's been going on since the beginning of time. Putting panties on a man's head is hardly torture.
I wish some pictures would 'surface' about US prisoners getting there heads cutoff, etc. (well, actually, I wish not!!)

Please, let's not get into a heated debate about this in this venue!
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post #14 of 26
7/28/07 at 2:12am
Hmmm I think there was a little more to it than putting panties on someone's head.

And, if the excuse `people have been doing it for generations' was fair and justifiable, we would have an excuse for every vile act, wouldn't we? People have been targeting and killing Jews for thousands of years - does that make it ok? I think not. People have been exploiting and torturing animals since the beginning of time - does that make it ok? You get the picture....
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post #15 of 26
7/30/07 at 8:19am
OMG! I'm not saying it's ok to torture people!!!!!
I certainly did not imply it's ok to torture animals!!!
My point is the military is given such a bad rap, they can't do their job for fear of the media headlines and then being brought up on charges.

Freedom isn't free!
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post #16 of 26
8/5/07 at 3:58am
The BBC has an article about how the man has been treated: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/6930197.stm
Quote:
You can hear Joe Darby being interviewed by Michael Buerk on BBC Radio 4's The Choice on 7 August at 0900 BST. \t\t \t
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post #17 of 26
8/5/07 at 8:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuJubee View Post
OMG! I'm not saying it's ok to torture people!!!!!
I certainly did not imply it's ok to torture animals!!!
My point is the military is given such a bad rap, they can't do their job for fear of the media headlines and then being brought up on charges.

Freedom isn't free!

Semper Fi. I don't think what they did compared to traditional torture either.
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post #18 of 26
8/5/07 at 9:01pm
WHAT??? So `new' forms of torture are just all fine and dandy then? You sound like Elisabeth Hasselbeck, who, with all the facts put in front of her, still denied that anything `all that bad' happened there. Unbelievable.
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post #19 of 26
8/9/07 at 7:12pm
Thread Starter 
Well for a start, he didn't leak it to the media - he went through the proper chains of command and stupid Donald Rumsfeld released his name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JuJubee View Post
OMG! I'm not saying it's ok to torture people!!!!!
I certainly did not imply it's ok to torture animals!!!
My point is the military is given such a bad rap, they can't do their job for fear of the media headlines and then being brought up on charges.

Freedom isn't free!
I don't think it's in the military's job description to pile up naked prisoners and take photos of them while posing smiling next to them. The way they treated their prisoners was completely inexcusable. How can they get upset when other countries treat Americans badly when those sort of things get released. The US military should be leading the way and setting an example - not lowering themselves to those acts.

Hopefully next time they try to do something so stupid they'll think twice.
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post #20 of 26
8/10/07 at 7:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahp View Post
Well for a start, he didn't leak it to the media - he went through the proper chains of command and stupid Donald Rumsfeld released his name.



I don't think it's in the military's job description to pile up naked prisoners and take photos of them while posing smiling next to them. The way they treated their prisoners was completely inexcusable. How can they get upset when other countries treat Americans badly when those sort of things get released. The US military should be leading the way and setting an example - not lowering themselves to those acts.

Hopefully next time they try to do something so stupid they'll think twice.
I totally agree with this post.
I have to say I believe what is described above is NOT torture IMO.

EXCEPT for the "other countries" part. Other countries treat us by beheading our people, a little worse than a naked pyramid I think.
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post #21 of 26
8/10/07 at 10:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuJubee View Post
My point is the military is given such a bad rap, they can't do their job for fear of the media headlines and then being brought up on charges.

Freedom isn't free!
They weren't doing their job. Their job was to guard the prisoners, not to do the things in those pictures. The headlines I can recall involving negative things our miltary has done involve rape, murder, stealing, etc-- things that are also crimes here. That isn't their job, and if they think it is, something has gone horribly wrong.

What happened at Abu Ghraib was WRONG. A failure to understand the culture of the people there made it worse.

And the 'freedom isn't free' propaganda has nothing to do with anything in this thread. The point of that is that sometimes we have to make sacrifices in order to maintain our way of life, not force other people to make sacrifices to support us.
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post #22 of 26
8/10/07 at 7:38pm
Torture is not just about causing physical harm. It is also about intimidation, humiliation, degradation, breaking people down - all things that can be effective in making people talk just so that it will STOP. The dictionary definition of torture is `the act of causing great physical or mental pain in order to persuade someone to do something or to give information, or as an act of cruelty to a person or animal'.

What happened to those prisoners at Abu Ghraib was all of the above and more. And they're just the photos and images we saw. Is anyone here honestly naive enough to think it stopped at that? Of course it was torture. Systematic, and relentless.
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post #23 of 26
8/10/07 at 8:05pm
really all the would have had to do is subject them to 24 hours of springer and oprah winfrey shows, and they would tell you whatever it is that you want to know..
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post #24 of 26
8/10/07 at 8:10pm
LOL! So true. But you know, that's the thing about torture. It's not effective. People just end up blurting out whatever they think you want to hear. Truth doesn't really come into it. It's pointless.
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post #25 of 26
8/11/07 at 11:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
They weren't doing their job. Their job was to guard the prisoners, not to do the things in those pictures. The headlines I can recall involving negative things our miltary has done involve rape, murder, stealing, etc-- things that are also crimes here. That isn't their job, and if they think it is, something has gone horribly wrong.

What happened at Abu Ghraib was WRONG. A failure to understand the culture of the people there made it worse.

And the 'freedom isn't free' propaganda has nothing to do with anything in this thread. The point of that is that sometimes we have to make sacrifices in order to maintain our way of life, not force other people to make sacrifices to support us.
I agree. I also think that America, as THE superpower should hold herself to much higher standards than terrorists. Just because they torture and behead people, we shouldn't lower ourselves to their standards or we are no better than they are.
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post #26 of 26
8/11/07 at 9:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I agree. I also think that America, as THE superpower should hold herself to much higher standards than terrorists. Just because they torture and behead people, we shouldn't lower ourselves to their standards or we are no better than they are.
Exactly.
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