Such a dilemma (kinda long)

devlyn

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
481
Purraise
1
Location
Ohio
These are all good points and ones I hadn't thought of. I think the best bet if you decide to go with Craigslist or similar is to thoroughly research the person with the kittens, find out why they have kittens, how much follow-up they do on potential adoptees, if they have a return policy, if they have the cats vetted and have proof of it, and how much they investigate you.


Devlyn

Originally Posted by momto3cats

It may depend on where you live, as far as what the shelters are like and how well they care for the animals, and who is placing ads on Craigslist. In my town, the main shelter is basically just a holding area for strays & owner turn-ins. They get no vet care or temperament evaluation, and most of the kittens are much too young to be away from their mothers. On the other hand, the kittens advertised on my city's Craiglist are usually being kept in someone's home, not stuffed in cages, and many people do keep them until 10-12 weeks of age. Also, many of these kittens don't belong to irresponsible owners, but were found as strays and fostered by caring people.
 

nicolegray

TCS Member
Adult Cat
Joined
Mar 6, 2007
Messages
205
Purraise
2
Location
New York, NY
I think that CraigsList can be a fine place to find a cat in need of a home. My point was less that shelters are always the best way to go, and more that there are lots of reasons to avoid BYB.

One of my two cats was adopted from someone who posted about her on CL. She was found as a stray, and a woman who had done some fostering for a local rescue took her in, made sure that she was healthy, behaviorally sound, and relatively well-trained, and then placed an ad about her on CL.

It's been a terrific match for us.

There's also the option of finding a small or privately run rescue. In these cases cats and kittens are usually fostered in people's homes. They are very well-cared for, and you can usually be assured of their good health.

It might sound damning for me to say, "Anything but a BYB!" but that's really my feeling on the matter, for many reasons.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #23

miao_kitty

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Messages
351
Purraise
10
Location
Boulder,CO
Originally Posted by Fiery

Quite frankly, I think it might be more beneficial to at least visit to see--that way, not only can you report anything unsavory to Animal Control, but you can also gently protest against said byb or irresponsibile person(who is probably just uninformed and likely to get momma spayed if made aware of facts). Simply refusing to buy from them is like one person refusing to buy gas--there are tons more willing to pay for it, and the effort goes ignored.
I like the way you said this. It's been my experience that the successful protests/boycotts are the ones that get noticed. If the people you're refusing to buy from don't know that a). you are refusing to buy from them and b). why they will have no idea that what they're doing is wrong. So, my strategy is if I go to look at a kitten to adopt and find that it is not acting right or the mom looks awful or if the environment is bad then I'll tell them that. I feel like that is the more important action than not doing anything.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #24

miao_kitty

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Messages
351
Purraise
10
Location
Boulder,CO
Originally Posted by Fiery

Boulder is within a quick drive from Denver and it's surroundingly massive suburbia(and rather well-to-do might I add), actually. From my home, south of denver, it's a thirty minute drive tops. It's also home to the CU Boulder campus(huge school). It's neither remote, nor a "small town".
Also, Boulder is full of animal lovers and all kinds of environmentally friendly people. At least, that's what my out-of-town friends tell me. =)
 

cococat

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
4,953
Purraise
12
Location
USA
Originally Posted by miao_kitty

. It's been my experience that the successful protests/boycotts are the ones that get noticed. .
Many successful important protest/boycotts start at the grassroots. That is why the simple act of educating people about BYB's and the like DOES make a difference. It does matter.

Originally Posted by miao_kitty

If the people you're refusing to buy from don't know that a). you are refusing to buy from them and b). why they will have no idea that what they're doing is wrong. So, my strategy is if I go to look at a kitten to adopt and find that it is not acting right or the mom looks awful or if the environment is bad then I'll tell them that. I feel like that is the more important action than not doing anything.
When more people start supporting the shelters when looking for pet quality mixed breed and occassionally purebred cats and kittens, society as a whole does benefit. BYB are at least held responsible for their actions when they understand their role, then they should alter their pets, and pet stores won't sell kittens anymore, so they will stop selling them. Grass roots does make a difference in many cases. One person does matter regardless of if you believe it or not.

Originally Posted by miao_kitty

I feel like that is the more important action than not doing anything.
If you want to really make a difference and take some action and do someting, volunteer at a shelter. That would make a bigger difference than trying to get a free kitten you hope will work out from a BYB.
Offer to help craigslist kitties and unwanted cats by assisting your local shelters with adoptions. Feed kitties, bottle feed babies, there are plently of cats/kittens in need at this time and usually not enough help to go around. These things don't cost you money, maybe a few hours of driving and pick up unwanted kitties or of manning the table at an adoption drive.

Originally Posted by Fiery

I feel the shelters are favored way too much .
Common sense says if the shelters in reality WERE favored too much, over the BYB's, pet shops, etc. we wouldn't have the horrible pet overpopulation problem now would we? If more people went to the good shelters that vet their kitties, spay/n, are honest about health and temperament issues, dedicate their lives to cat and kitten well being, are a good source of knowledge, and so forth - instead of the middle man (BYB's) or pet shops that produce, give away, or sell these kitties that wouldn't be a bad thing to favor the shelters. But that is not reality.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #26

miao_kitty

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Messages
351
Purraise
10
Location
Boulder,CO
OK, one last post....How does one determine if the kittens advertised on CL are from BYBs? And what if they are, but look are healthy and stuff? Would you ever know? I'm not saying that people should just decide to breed animals as long as they keep them healthy, but you can't really say that all kittens advertised free or w/ a small adoption fee are from BYBs. Anyway...I guess it really depends on the situation
 

cococat

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
4,953
Purraise
12
Location
USA
Originally Posted by NicoleGray

Yes, it's horrible to turn away a kitten that through no fault of its own was bred by an irresponsible breeder. However, is it not equally unfair to turn away a kitten that was born a stray or through accident?

The fact of the matter is, you can't save every cat, so you might as well do as much good as you can when you choose your kitten. Choosing one from a shelter or a stray that was rescued by some kind individual, you will not only be giving a home to a kitten that needs one, you will also be helping the feral cat population, encouraging people who try to help needy cats, and (if you pay an adoption fee) supporting your local shelter system.

If you buy from a BYB, you will be helping a kitten that needs a home, but also encouraging irresponsible breeding that leads to cats with genetic mutations, physical illness and deformity, and horrible living conditions. Is it awful that those cats may not find loving homes? Yes, of course. It's not their fault. But it's no more unfair than it would be to a stray kitten that never finds a home.

You have the chance to be a responsible consumer. Take advantage of this opportunity.

I would also add that cats from BYB tend to be VERY EXPENSIVE in the long run because they have often been badly bred and badly cared for.

One suggestion I have, if you feel so sure that all the kittens at the shelter will find homes, is to consider a cat that is 6 or more months old. They're past the cute and cuddly phase where everyone will want to take them home, but they're still young enough to settle into a new home. Also, you'll have a better idea of personality and health issues. We just did this and it has worked out great.

Another option is to adopt a black kitten. They might be tiny and adorable, but asinine prejudices and superstitions prevent people from adopting them.
Interesting thoughts on the issue. My cousin and a friend got a "for free" puppy from different towns at different times; both have had to pay a lot of vet bills and had a lot of heartbreak from genetic conditions. The puppies were healthy when they first got them, but it didnâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]t last.

The fact is whenever it comes to animal health it is a roulette game. You can go with well bred cats and have problems, and you can go with wild barn cats and have problems.

However, if I was really concerned about health and longevity for my new kitty, I would err on the side of caution and at least put the odds in my favor when getting a new family member, and that does not include supporting BYB's free or not/or buying from kitten/puppy mills, and/or pet shops.
 

cococat

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
4,953
Purraise
12
Location
USA
Originally Posted by miao_kitty

OK, one last post....How does one determine if the kittens advertised on CL are from BYBs? And what if they are, but look are healthy and stuff? Would you ever know? I'm not saying that people should just decide to breed animals as long as they keep them healthy, but you can't really say that all kittens advertised free or w/ a small adoption fee are from BYBs. Anyway...I guess it really depends on the situation
I agree. It is all so situational.
Some people find strays and keep them and help the momma's and babies, which is a wonderful sweet thing. Then take it upon themselves to find them homes instead of turning the resource of a shelter. There are many ways they go about this.

Sometimes this works out in the best way for all involved and the story is closed for those experienced with cats and located in one place so they can take back any cats that have issues and offer shots, vet care, spay/n etc. before placement,

but unless the person is very experienced with cats in general it would be better to have them in the care of a reputable rescue group, as they are more skilled in matching people up with the right forever homes, they can tell the people who are just collecting for the wrong reasons, they can do home visits, have contracts, they have the resources to vet each cat and spay/n each one, and are a body of collective knowledge that has lots of experience in that venue to best help each cat/kitten with its special needs that might arise.

Getting the cat from the shelter assures if your cat doesn't work out, the kitty can go back. Buying/picking up off craigslist, probably not so much. If you choose a good shelter you are assured a healthy cat, vacc's, free of diseases, no fleas, no ticks, no ringworm, already spay/n, some even come with a microchip, and your money is a small donation compared to the costs of what they put into each kitty and it will go to supporting a good cause. And they can help more unwanted kitties and have a new place to help another kitty when you take one from them.
 

fiery

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
Apr 11, 2005
Messages
349
Purraise
1
Location
Suburbia, CO
Common sense says if the shelters in reality WERE favored too much, we wouldn't have the horrible pet overpopulation problem now would we?
Common sense says there are way more cats than people who want them. Pay attention please: I was talking about the people on these forums.

Many successful important protest/boycotts start at the grassroots. That is why the simply act of educating people about BYB's and the like DOES make a difference. It does matter.
The difference it makes is minimal at best. Doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't tryor darndest, but we really need to be realistic. Reality is: Most people do not care. It's sick, it's terrible, and it's shameful, but most people just don't give a crap. We, the cat lovers who spend thousands on our pets and lavish them with affection, are the exception rather than the rule. Some people will pay attention and be appalled, but more often than not, the most we'll get is a shrug of a shoulder and our words promptly forgotten.

When more people start supporting the shelters when looking for pet quality mixed breed and occassionally purebred cats and kittens, society as a whole does benefit. BYB are at least held responsible for their actions when they understand their role, then they should alter their pets, and pet stores won't sell kittens anymore, so they will stop selling them. Grass roots does make a difference in many cases. One person does matter regardless of if you believe it or not.
Okay, so more people do what you said above. Many more than that continue to support them. Short of making it illegal with punishments of torture and death, they will always have a market. What you propose above will never happen without a hefty miracle. It's supply and demand, yes, and no matter what, no matter how many people we try to educate, there will always, always, ALWAYS be many more who are out of our reach. You can almost invisibly slow the demand, but there is almost no chance of it actually being stopped. You have to be realistic.

If you want to really make a difference and take some action and do someting, volunteer at a shelter. That would make a bigger difference than trying to get a free kitten you hope will work out from a BYB.
Offer to help craigslist kitties and unwanted cats by assisting your local shelters with adoptions. Feed kitties, bottle feed babies, there are plently of cats/kittens in need at this time and usually not enough help to go around. These things don't cost you money, maybe a few hours of driving and pick up unwanted kitties or of manning the table at an adoption drive.
All she wants to do is get a kitten. She's not going looking for a BYB, or going into a pet shop, and that's a load of responsibility that you're proposing that she might not have time for. If what she wants to do is get a kitten, and she goes searching and finds something detestable, she intends to speak up and possibly call animal control or whatnot. She was never looking into saving the entire race of kitties--she was simply planning on doing something that was beneficial as opposed to nothing if that's what she happens across.

OK, one last post....How does one determine if the kittens advertised on CL are from BYBs? And what if they are, but look are healthy and stuff? Would you ever know? I'm not saying that people should just decide to breed animals as long as they keep them healthy, but you can't really say that all kittens advertised free or w/ a small adoption fee are from BYBs. Anyway...I guess it really depends on the situation
Generally, the BYB are ones who do it for profit and sell out of pet stores. They have tons and tons of queens who are worn out from breeding and are generally not healthy. The ones you'll find on craig's list with small rehoming fees are generally mistakes and "oopsies". Those are generally the people that informing will probably make a difference to, so if you can, tell them to spay, spay, SPAY! =D Find out what the history is, check for all conditions, and ask if you can have them examined by a veterinarian--if there are any health problems, and they're responsible people, they should be willing to take them back. Just a thought.

The fact is whenever it comes to animal health it is a roulette game. You can go with well bred cats and have problems, and you can go with wild barn cats and have problems.
Very, very true. Many purebred cats have lots of health problems as well due to the limitations of a small gene pool.

Just be smart in general--know your health signs(especially ring worm symptoms--that stuff is nasty!) and take your time. That's what I suggest!
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #30

miao_kitty

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Messages
351
Purraise
10
Location
Boulder,CO
So, i just thought of something. If you (the hypothetical "you") were a back yard breeder who didn't care about the kittens, why would you give them away for free? wouldn't you try to make a profit on them?
 

cococat

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
4,953
Purraise
12
Location
USA
Originally Posted by Fiery

The difference it makes is minimal at best. Doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't tryor darndest, but we really need to be realistic. Reality is: Most people do not care. It's sick, it's terrible, and it's shameful, but most people just don't give a crap. We, the cat lovers who spend thousands on our pets and lavish them with affection, are the exception rather than the rule. Some people will pay attention and be appalled, but more often than not, the most we'll get is a shrug of a shoulder and our words promptly forgotten.
I couldn't have said it better.
I do understand most of the people here are the exception, not the norm at least from what I have seen. But it does make me so happy to see how well the cats here are loved and taken care of. There are so many out there that need good homes, it is heartbreaking.
Another thing, so many people "just aren't cat people" either or are "allergic" and just dismiss cats all together. An individual in my old rural neighborhood used to shoot cats, he didn't "like" them walking on his clean cars and using his veggie garden as a litterbox.
My cat is inside only, all my cats will be since I learned about that event.

I know I am so called preaching to the choir I suppose on a cat forum, but maybe not. Maybe there is someone out there reading this not knowing much about cats wondering this exact same question.

And the justonelitter people are BYB's. And they have the potential to make hundreds of babies off just that one litter- if they don't spay/n the oops/or my cat is so smart/pretty she needs to have a litter - kittens they produce and also the parents.

But it just hurts my heart so much to not at least try and make a difference and educate. If it wasn't for forums like this one many people would not even know the term BYB. Just the fact this poster is doing their homework makes me happy!
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #32

miao_kitty

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Messages
351
Purraise
10
Location
Boulder,CO
Originally Posted by Fiery

Common sense says there are way more cats than people who want them. Pay attention please: I was talking about the people on these forums.


The difference it makes is minimal at best. Doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't tryor darndest, but we really need to be realistic. Reality is: Most people do not care. It's sick, it's terrible, and it's shameful, but most people just don't give a crap. We, the cat lovers who spend thousands on our pets and lavish them with affection, are the exception rather than the rule. Some people will pay attention and be appalled, but more often than not, the most we'll get is a shrug of a shoulder and our words promptly forgotten.
And even some self-professed cat lovers do not care. I have a friend who got THREE girl kittens from pet stores and one male cat as a stray. She didn't spay any of her girls b/c she couldn't afford it after paying for the cats. The male was not neutered either. So one of her cats had kittens. She didn't get any of those 4 fixed either before she adopted them out (or got them shots). Then I finally convinced her to get her cats fixed and she did the females but didn't want the males to "lose their manhood." So...she brought in another stray female..and the male got her pregnant....and it goes on despite my efforts of trying to convince her why it's good not to have kittens
 

fiery

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
Apr 11, 2005
Messages
349
Purraise
1
Location
Suburbia, CO
So, i just thought of something. If you (the hypothetical "you") were a back yard breeder who didn't care about the kittens, why would you give them away for free? wouldn't you try to make a profit on them?
Most BYB(the ones that are really super bad imho) are the ones who do it for profit, who refuse to spend the money on proper medical care, and basically just use their cats as breeding machines. These are generally not the ones you'll find on Craig's list. Craig's list kittens come from a variety of sources--from the above example: the "just one litter" people, the irresponsible out-door non-spaying people, "oopsies", fosters, and lots more.

Just gotta be smart when dealing with getting a kitten, no matter WHERE you get it from.
 

cococat

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
4,953
Purraise
12
Location
USA
Originally Posted by miao_kitty

So, i just thought of something. If you (the hypothetical "you") were a back yard breeder who didn't care about the kittens, why would you give them away for free? wouldn't you try to make a profit on them?
Not for sure, it probably varies per individual and per litter if we are talking about a BYB

Maybe because they cut costs, no vet bills (shots, spay/n, worming, vet check,), no to low food costs (sell them young). Their total cost is low, unlike good breeders that show, health test, frequent worming/vet costs, kitten toys, care packages, etc. so they aren’t losing much if they give them away. And it might make them feel better to give them away, rather than charging.

The older the free kitties get, the more they eat, and if inside the more litter they use, and the more likely they will have more kittens and repeat the cycle, so they would rather give them away. It was probably an oops litter or a litter that they wanted just that one time since the mom cat was so cute/smart/had unique markings, had pretty eyes, the kids liked her and wanted to have kittens (insert any other reason here)

But the sad thing is unless they fix the kittens from that oops or just one litter, those kittens are going to be making a whole lot more

They must understand somewhere that there are so many kittens in the US maybe, they most likely will not make a profit and if they sold them for a rehoming fee they wouldn't get sold.
They aren’t bad people, they just are uneducated, don't care, and don’t know any better I would think. I don't really know
 

cococat

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
4,953
Purraise
12
Location
USA
Originally Posted by miao_kitty

And even some self-professed cat lovers do not care. I have a friend who got THREE girl kittens from pet stores and one male cat as a stray. She didn't spay any of her girls b/c she couldn't afford it after paying for the cats. The male was not neutered either. So one of her cats had kittens. She didn't get any of those 4 fixed either before she adopted them out (or shots). Then I finally convinced her to get her cats fixed and she did the females but didn't want the males to "lose their manhood." So...she brought in another stray female..and the male got her pregnant....and it goes on despite my efforts of trying to convince her why it's good not to have kittens
Oh wow. What a sad cycle to have to watch from a friend.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #36

miao_kitty

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Messages
351
Purraise
10
Location
Boulder,CO
Originally Posted by Fiery

Most BYB(the ones that are really super bad imho) are the ones who do it for profit, who refuse to spend the money on proper medical care, and basically just use their cats as breeding machines. These are generally not the ones you'll find on Craig's list. Craig's list kittens come from a variety of sources--from the above example: the "just one litter" people, the irresponsible out-door non-spaying people, "oopsies", fosters, and lots more.

Just gotta be smart when dealing with getting a kitten, no matter WHERE you get it from.
thanks and sorry for asking questions that ppl already answer. I can't quite keep up with this forum. =P
 

fiery

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
Apr 11, 2005
Messages
349
Purraise
1
Location
Suburbia, CO
=( Yeah, it really makes me sad that some people who claim to be cat lovers just don't get it. I have a friend who, at one point, had four cats she was keeping in one filthy, tiny room. ALL of them were attention starved, because, despite this friend's claim that she absolutely adored kitties, once she had them, she barely touched them other than to throw them off her bed. Sigh. It makes me kind of sick.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #38

miao_kitty

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Messages
351
Purraise
10
Location
Boulder,CO
Proof that Craig's list is not all bad: http://denver.craigslist.org/pet/365050347.html (not that there have been any claims that it is all bad
)

oh - and one reason I have a feeling that all the kittens at the Boulder shelter will be adopted: there were 3 kittens on their webpage this morning that all had adoption holds and now none of those on are their website.
 

fiery

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
Apr 11, 2005
Messages
349
Purraise
1
Location
Suburbia, CO
Wow, those kitties look very similar to lynxcats! They're just missing the polydactyly.. but yep, you'll find many like that as well. =) Sweet!
 

junior67

TCS Member
Super Cat
Joined
May 1, 2006
Messages
706
Purraise
1
I just have a question for those that say to go to a shelter etc.

some have said they found a preg. stray or a litter of feral kittens etc. do you bring these to the shelters to find homes for them???? because if you don't then you are basically telling her not to get a kitten from someone like yourself etc.

One of my cats was from a cat in my neighborhood that the owners got and was told she was spayed. obviously she wasn't...... so we weren't supporting a BYB or petstores or anything like that but instead someone that had an OOPS and yes mom was fixed after that. Another one was from my vets office that someone found some feral kittens and brought them in....... another one I found outside as a feral and took her in but couldn't catch any of the others or mom (they weren't at my home or near it), one my hubby got from me and he is a purebred that the mom had to have a c-section and the others babies didn't make it. and one was from someone that I used to work with that had an oops........ I haven't gotten a single cat from a shelter and have had NO health issues with any besides the feral that I took in as a kitten when she was older and my brother (we shared an apartment) left cleaner in a bucket in the bathtub and she got into that and had major kidney failure etc and we had to put her down. My other 4 cats I still have and have all been VERY VERY healthy and one is 12 yrs old and doing great and going strong. I feel I helped all of my cats and the people out adn none went on to have litter after litter (the moms) that i know of besides the ferals moms of course) it was just an oops which CAN happen.


When I lived with my parents we got a puppy from a shelter and she was 6-8 weeks old. well we had her about 4-5 mo. and she started to get NASTY. we tried training etc and nothing worked she just really freaked out and had to give her back to the shelter who found her another home and she came back and last I heard they found another one they "thought" might work for her but we didn't hear anymore after that so not sure what happened so there are NO guarentees with shelters either........


But my thing is there are SOOOOOOOOOO many in this forum that take in preg. cats and raise the kittens and find homes for them with out taking them to the shelters and to tell someone to ONLY go to a shelter to get a kitten takes away from what these people do. she wasn't saying she was looking for a BYB or a petstore just another kitten in need which I think is what many have on here. so there are many others besides shelters that do alot of goodfor the pets........ not sure HOW the ones on here find homes for their kittens but they obviously do find homes and have to get the word around somehow........
 
Top