Such a dilemma (kinda long)

miao_kitty

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(First of all, if this is not the right forum, please relocate it where it belongs Thanks!)

So, this is a very tough dilemma for me and I have conflicting feelings. Every responsible cat owner says that you should adopt cats or kittens from shelters so as not to encourage "back-yard breeders" and to prevent the shelters from euthanizing unwanted kittens or cats. But what of all the kittens born to "back-yard breeders" (a.k.a. free kittens posted on Craig's list etc.)?

See, I live in Boulder, CO and I know the kittens at the Humane Society *will* get adopted and it is a no-kill shelter. Also, I want a kitten because I am hoping it will adapt better to my cat Luna, and the shelter has very few. (Sometimes they have more, but they do get adopted fast). Also, I know that I will take great care of my kitten and get it fixed and stuff. So, on that note, I feel like I'm helping by getting a kitten from some random person. (I would make sure that everything seemed OK with the kitten before adopting it, of course). Lastly, I know it would be cheaper for me to adopt a free (or very low priced kitten) and have it fixed at a clinic, then adopt one from a shelter. I know that some day, when I have a steady job (I'm a graduate student right now) I would love to foster moms and kittens and fix them and adopt them out, but right now I am only able to save one. But I am feeling very guilty about not adopting from a shelter.

So, I just wanted to share my dilemma, and see if anyone had any thoughts or advice or if anyone has been in a similar situation. Thanks for listening (or reading) my rambling!
 

fiery

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Shelters are not the only places where needy kittens can find homes. I would recommend craig's list--you will find tons of people with low adoption fees and free-to-good-home kittens who could very easilly go to people who would neglect them, abuse them, or worse--end up as testing subjects for makeup or god knows what else. Adopting from there, especially if your shelter is a no-kill one, will probably save a kitty's life.
 

cococat

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Originally Posted by miao_kitty

Every responsible cat owner says that you should adopt cats or kittens from shelters so as not to encourage "back-yard breeders" and to prevent the shelters from euthanizing unwanted kittens or cats.
Yes, this is sound advice. Responsible breeders fix their pet kittens, vaccinate, and make sure their kittens are healthy and also take back kittens/cats of their breeding for any reason. That is what a real breeder should do if they love cats and are concerned about the breeds future. They also understand their role in the pet overpopulation crisis. The "just one litter" people produce more cats/kittens than most breeders since breeders go the responsible route with the offspring. One cat can produce 420000 kittens according to justonelitter.com.

Another reason being simple supply and demand. Think about it for a second. If people didn't buy from pet shops, then pet shops would not sell kittens. People think they are saving them, when really they are buying them so that the petshop can replace their empty spot with another. The same goes for many BYB, if they knew it was going to be super hard to give their kittens away or sell them, they probably would give second thoughts to what they are doing (maybe, I don't know for sure)

Originally Posted by miao_kitty

See, I live in Boulder, CO and I know the kittens at the Humane Society *will* get adopted and it is a no-kill shelter.
How do you know that they will all get adopted? In many times that is not the case. Cute puppies/kittens don't always get adopted out as fast as people might like to think to make themselves feel better. It just isn't reality at least where I live. Also, right now is "kitten season". There are so many kittens I am finding stray babies where I live in my neighborhood.

Just because it is a no kill shelter doesn't mean they can afford to take in all kittens/cats that people dump on them. Sometimes they get too full to accept new cat/kittens. Then where do those kittens/cats go? Getting a cat from the Humane Society means they will have more room to keep doing good in this world and helping pets in need out. Obtaining a cat/kitten from them is a good thing for everyone.

And I am sure there is a kill shelter somewhere that is having to euthanize pets in your state. You might want to check there first so you can save them. Those cats will just be replaced with more. It is an endless cycle due to irresponsible owners and backyard breeders.


Originally Posted by miao_kitty

So, on that note, I feel like I'm helping by getting a kitten from some random person. (I would make sure that everything seemed OK with the kitten before adopting it, of course).
Why would you want to help them when there are so many rescue volunteers and people trying to clean up the mistakes of others? They do what is right by the kittens/cats and devote their lives to helping out cat/kittens that many owners/breeders/random people, etc. did not care about.

I have a purebred cat and am all for supporting responsible reputable breeders or the responsible reputable hard working shelter people. I would never support the backyard breeders, even if they are giving them away for free. At least with me there is not a market for their puppies/kittens. I say this because at the lake there was a couple giving away puppies for free, I asked why they didn't have momma dog fixed and they said because they love raising puppies and seeing the joy the puppies bring to all the people they give them away to. Meanwhile momma dog looked horrible, worn out, and not healthy. That made me stop and think, they will continue to BYB instead of being a shelter worker and fostering pregnant momma dogs since they have a market (paying or not). I also love puppies/kittens and know that by volunteering and supporting them I can help out and not contribute to the pet overpopulation.

Originally Posted by miao_kitty

Lastly, I know it would be cheaper for me to adopt a free (or very low priced kitten) and have it fixed at a clinic, then adopt one from a shelter.
On one hand yes, on one hand no. You don't know if the kitten has infectious diseases. You also don't know the history of the parents or the temperament of the cat. You will have to keep them isolated so they kitten doesn’t give whatever it might have to your currently healthy cat. Also, what if your kitten and your current cat are not a good match? Where would you take the kitten? To the shelter? Chances are the BYB's won't want the kitten back even if you could get ahold of them somehow.

If you are struggling with money, who is to say that something might come up and you won't be able to afford a spay/neuter and/or shots/meds/ringworm control, UTI's, and/or any other medical or physical issue that might come about later.

By going with a shelter kitty at least you will get the kitty already spayed/neutered, vaccinated, and checked for diseases and then you won't have to worry about those things at all.

Buying one from the shelter at least you will have a support system if something should come up, some place to go for in person advice, rather than that random person who is just looking for a place to give their kittens away so they don't have to worry about them anymore.


Originally Posted by miao_kitty

So, I just wanted to share my dilemma, and see if anyone had any thoughts or advice or if anyone has been in a similar situation. Thanks for listening (or reading) my rambling!
That is just my rambling and thoughts too!
Just opinions, these are hard questions. Don't know if I helped. I am sure others will chime in.
 

fiery

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My issue with the above is as follows--

A kitten, is a kitten, no matter how it was begotten. If you forget the whole point about encouraging byb by adopting one of those kittens and simply look at the poor kittens who are stuck with those people.. what's really the difference? It's still a kitten in need, maybe even moreso than a shelter cat. Just a thought.
 

goldenkitty45

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The biggest problem I have in adopting from Craigslist is the fact that the people are placing these kittens way too early - some are letting them go at 6-8 weeks old - barely weaned and they say "they are ready to go - eating dry food and using litter pan".



Kittens need to be with the mom/siblings for 10-12 weeks minimum - a lot of kittens placed younger will have behavior/social problems. From birth to 3 months old is critical social/behavior development time - not just being able to eat solid foods and use the litter pan.

IMO keep searching but don't get a kitten under 10 weeks old if you want a good companion.
 

cococat

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Originally Posted by Fiery

My issue with the above is as follows--

A kitten, is a kitten, no matter how it was begotten. It's still a kitten in need,
every kitten (and cat for that matter) out there needs a good home (of course). I have rescued four kittens this week out of my neighborhood that were sick and thin. Kittens are so sweet and helpless, I wish more people would go the responsible route with them...
 

bab-ush-niik

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cococat makes very good points.

My thoughts: BYB, pet stores, and those who put up their cats on craigslist need to be responsible for their actions. If their cat doesn't get purchased (I won't use "adopted" under those circumstances), they have to suck it up and take the cat to the shelter, knowing that yes, it may get euthanized. They have to live with that decision. I WANT them to live with that decision so they won't EVER do it again. So I don't get pets from any of those places.

If your shelter is a no kill shelter, then at least, they have to take the cat over there and pay a fine for dropping it off. Or they abandon it, knowing full well what might happen. Again, their choice, they face the moral consequences.

A shelter cat will at least have a somewhat known history and temperament. The shelter folks will be honest with you. They want you to be a permanent home for any of their cats, so they won't lie about temperament or behavioral issues.

We once adopted a dog from the shelter that had a digging and barking problem. We called the shelter, and they sincerely apologized and asked that we bring the dog back. Apparently we were being helped by a new shelter worker on the day we adopted, and she didn't know that the dog had these issues. The rest of the workers already knew, and they were actually looking for an elderly person to adopt him. If any of them had been around, they would have told us that he was not right for our family. We brought him back, and they helped us pick another dog that WOULD be right for us.

We adopted a cat (Bunny) from a shelter a few months ago. They had 20 cats, and they helped us pick the one that would best fit with our household.

At a shelter, they'll tell you if the animal has a problem. The shelter we got Bunny from had several "problem" kitties, and they were very up front about it. They also said that if we had any problems with Bunny, we should bring her back and we would find a different cat. (Actually, we have to, it's in the contract that if we don't want her, for any reason, she goes back to them.)

At a BYB or a pet store, you aren't going to get this. They'll only tell you good things about the cat because they want you to take it away. So you end up (like a few of my friends), with an animal that's inbred and neurotic without knowing ahead of time.

IMO, it's worth the adoption fee. I doubled it at the last place because I was so happy!
They even answered my phone calls about how to introduce the kitties and helped me through Bunny's cold. (Apparently, it's common for shelter cats to get a cold when they're relocated. Most of the time, it goes away in a few days.)

Support the shelter. It's worth the money to help them keep the place running. You're doing a service to society.
 

bab-ush-niik

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A kitten, is a kitten, no matter how it was begotten. If you forget the whole point about encouraging byb by adopting one of those kittens and simply look at the poor kittens who are stuck with those people.. what's really the difference? It's still a kitten in need, maybe even moreso than a shelter cat. Just a thought.
And if you see the kittens as being equal in need, then that's just another reason to support the shelter and discourange BYB and pet stores.

(With the exception of the pet stores who only have shelter cats. Our local PetCo has 12 cages for shelter kitties ONLY! There are no BYB or mill kittens there. I think they even pay for the kitties basic needs. It really helps out the shelter a lot to have that extra space and visibility.)
 

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IMO it's much cheaper to adopt from a shelter! We got Chessy from a shelter for $36! He was already neutered and vaccinated. Of course kittens may be more expensive because they need more vaccinations. But when you get a cat or kitten somewhere else, you will probably be paying full price for those things.
 

laureen227

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so far, all of my 'free' cats have been, in the long run, the MOST expensive! Chip has actually cost me the least money, out of pocket, of any of my cats. he was already neutered & up-to-date on shots, so he didn't cost anything but the shelter fee, which was amazingly low! i didn't have any costs with him at all until he was due for his annual. the others - i paid for shots, neutering, fixing what was wrong with them [Cable, Java & Firefox all had medical issues, since they were foundlings]... i recommend a shelter cat. you could get a young cat [1year or so] instead of a new kitten - the shelter should be able to tell you of a 'cat's cat', one that gets along well with others, non-dominant. that was Chip's description, & he's integrated well with my girls.
 

devlyn

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There is no such thing as a free kitten. People giving away free kittens don't put much value on the kitten's life. Why would they? They are just a burden to be dumped on someone else. I saw some "free kittens" at a greenhouse one day and they had a guarantee too. If your kitten dies, they will replace it. Free! Because kittens are just objects and easily replaceable.


I admit that I was in a similar position to you. It was winter and my bf had paid a huge pet deposit to my landlord so we could have pets. It was an awesome Christmas present!! Anyways, we were pretty much gypsies, traveling around a lot so I wanted to get two kittens, preferably male, preferably pretty young so that they would get used to traveling with us and get used to wearing harnesses in the car and such.

I looked at all the shelters within a 100 mile radius and couldn't find any suitable boys. I scoured the Petfinder site. So I got them from a "free kittens" ad at the grocery store.

The mother cat was bald. They told me it was stress. There was a young child handling/overhandling the kittens. I was told the kittens were 8 weeks old, using the litter box, healthy, eating well.

When we took them to the vet they:
1. Had ringworm. It took 3 months of diligent care to get them clean of it.
2. 5 weeks old. Way too young to be away from mom, not that mom was in any shape to be taking care of the kittens since she was probably too young and had ringworm to the point that she was bald.
3. Were undernourished. It's no surprise that they were given the state of the mom. They pretty much had to be weaned since they were hungry.
4. Infested with fleas and worms.
5. Had Conjuctivitus.

We nursed them through all these problems. Merry got sick and wasted away before my eyes from about 6 months old to 11 months. Then he died from eating thread, even though I had to force feed him anything else. The vet had no idea what was wrong with him, just that he was throwing up constantly and getting thinner and thinner. His vet bills in a 6 month period were well over $3K.

Pippin is still alive but has been plagued with health problems ranging from Pica (eating things that aren't food including paper towels, string, fur on the floor), constipation, UTIs, Blockages. He ended up getting a PU this year. His vet bill over the 4 years I've had him has to be nearing 10K.

It's my firm belief that the lack of a proper start and proper care early on as well as the fact that he is probably inbred has led him to have these health issues. I would NOT give him up for the world. He is my sweetest companion. But without the emotional connection if I look back would I have purposely adopted a sickly cat? No, not a chance. It's heart breaking.

Do yourself a favor and go to a shelter. Wait a little bit for the right, healthy cat for you if necessary. They don't have kittens now, but they probably will eventually. They may be able to put you in touch with one of their fosters who give excellent care in the home and will be honest with their behavior and health. The shelter deserves your support.

Part of me says that I rescued Merry and Pippin. And I did. But what lesson did that lady learn from it? None. I'd bet she didn't even get her cat spayed. She just learned that it's easy to get rid of cute kittens, so why bother?
The situation makes me sad. We all want to rescue all of them and educate EVERYONE and have all people do the right thing when it comes to their pets, but they don't and we can't. I think rewarding the people (shelters/rescuers/etc) who do the RIGHT thing is the best approach.

Best of luck with your new addition when you find him/her.


Devlyn
 

fiery

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Pippin is still alive but has been plagued with health problems ranging from Pica (eating things that aren't food including paper towels, string, fur on the floor), constipation, UTIs, Blockages. He ended up getting a PU this year. His vet bill over the 4 years I've had him has to be nearing 10K.

---

But what lesson did that lady learn from it? None. I'd bet she didn't even get her cat spayed. She just learned that it's easy to get rid of cute kittens, so why bother?
No offense meant, however if you're going to purchase like you did, you HAVE to be aware of what to look for(and have a detailed eye) in terms of health. Most of that could have been avoided if you'd simply known what to look for in terms of health and future problems. Sure, there are some hidden things, but your circumstances just screamed trouble.

I also hope you said something. Saying nothing does NOT help the problem.

The biggest problem I have in adopting from Craigslist is the fact that the people are placing these kittens way too early - some are letting them go at 6-8 weeks old - barely weaned and they say "they are ready to go - eating dry food and using litter pan".
I'm really not that sure that that is entirely correct. I'm sure different kittens react to things differently, but my boy, Toby, was adopted at eight weeks and has never had a problem. I don't let my kittens go before twelve weeks, but still.. My experience says something different, though I'm positive it's not true for all kitties. Either way, would you rather have them go to someone who won't treat them right or understand why they would have a problem later in life? Wouldn't it be better to call the person, see the kittens, and have them hold onto the one you want for another few weeks, as well as try to convince them to do the same for the rest of the kittens? Ignoring it isn't going to make it better.

And if you see the kittens as being equal in need, then that's just another reason to support the shelter and discourange BYB and pet stores.
I feel this is very unrealistic. There will always be a majority of people buying from Pet Stores and from BYB. Most people are misinformed and ignorant, and many make the CHOICE to be that way and ignore intelligence, logic, and any facts given to them. Most people do not care. Period, the end.

Quite frankly, I think it might be more beneficial to at least visit to see--that way, not only can you report anything unsavory to Animal Control, but you can also gently protest against said byb or irresponsibile person(who is probably just uninformed and likely to get momma spayed if made aware of facts). Simply refusing to buy from them is like one person refusing to buy gas--there are tons more willing to pay for it, and the effort goes ignored.

By completely ruling out the possibility of taking one of these kittens, you're condemning the innocent to an unpleasant life. As little as we informed people like it, the demand will always be there, and our minority ignoring it isn't going to change a thing, no matter how much we parade in the streets, preach, or scream on our soapboxes.

It's not fair to deny a creature a chance who was simply a victim of a bad circumstance.
 

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Yes, it's horrible to turn away a kitten that through no fault of its own was bred by an irresponsible breeder. However, is it not equally unfair to turn away a kitten that was born a stray or through accident?

The fact of the matter is, you can't save every cat, so you might as well do as much good as you can when you choose your kitten. Choosing one from a shelter or a stray that was rescued by some kind individual, you will not only be giving a home to a kitten that needs one, you will also be helping the feral cat population, encouraging people who try to help needy cats, and (if you pay an adoption fee) supporting your local shelter system.

If you buy from a BYB, you will be helping a kitten that needs a home, but also encouraging irresponsible breeding that leads to cats with genetic mutations, physical illness and deformity, and horrible living conditions. Is it awful that those cats may not find loving homes? Yes, of course. It's not their fault. But it's no more unfair than it would be to a stray kitten that never finds a home.

You have the chance to be a responsible consumer. Take advantage of this opportunity.

I would also add that cats from BYB tend to be VERY EXPENSIVE in the long run because they have often been badly bred and badly cared for.

One suggestion I have, if you feel so sure that all the kittens at the shelter will find homes, is to consider a cat that is 6 or more months old. They're past the cute and cuddly phase where everyone will want to take them home, but they're still young enough to settle into a new home. Also, you'll have a better idea of personality and health issues. We just did this and it has worked out great.

Another option is to adopt a black kitten. They might be tiny and adorable, but asinine prejudices and superstitions prevent people from adopting them.
 

nicolegray

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Sorry to double post, but I wanted to add something.

I just did a regional Petfinder search for "baby" cats in or near Boulder, CO, and there are TONS. Nearly fifty listed just in your local human society, and dozens more in your region. Also, these are only the kittens that are actually there long enough to get posted.

I may be wrong, but I'm under the impression that Boulder is a fairly small community, so I would be surprised if there are more than enough homes for all these kittens.

If you have doubts, call the shelter and ask them if they are having trouble adopting out all their kittens. If they are, then you don't need to feel guilty about adopting from them.
 

devlyn

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No offense taken. I admit I was excited about finding younger kittens who were brothers after looking for a couple of months. I felt like the kittens would die if I left them there but I was NOT aware of the possible long term ramifications. My biggest focus was on the young (5 year old) child who was mauling the kittens. Running around with them then crashing into the couch with the kittens beneath her.

I'm trying to give advice to someone who asked for it and relating my personal experiences and mistakes. I was also not as educated about these situations as I am now. One can always learn more and having real world examples always help me.

I had always adopted previously from family. I lived in the country and they had barn cats and we got kittens from them. Despite the issues I now have with that type of situation, the cats we got were always very healthy.

At the time it was also beyond my comprehension that a litter could be anything but an accident. Our animals were always neutered/spayed at 6 months. We never had litters ever. I didn't know then what people might do with a "free kitten" ie snake food, test subjects, pit bull baiting. I was certainly naive about the problem.

I told the lady she should get her cat to the vet. That it looked sickly. She said she was getting her spayed.

If I were in the same situation now, I would certainly act in a different manner.

Devlyn

Originally Posted by Fiery

No offense meant, however if you're going to purchase like you did, you HAVE to be aware of what to look for(and have a detailed eye) in terms of health. Most of that could have been avoided if you'd simply known what to look for in terms of health and future problems. Sure, there are some hidden things, but your circumstances just screamed trouble.

I also hope you said something. Saying nothing does NOT help the problem.
 

devlyn

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I agree wholeheartedly. You said it so very well!!!

We all want to idealistically hope for all pet owners to be responsible, that you can save every cat or kitten, that we can put an end to pet overpopulation and euthanization of stray animals, but we can't. At least not tomorrow.

The best we can hope for is that our actions will improve the situation, not exacerbate it.

Devlyn

Originally Posted by NicoleGray

The fact of the matter is, you can't save every cat, so you might as well do as much good as you can when you choose your kitten. Choosing one from a shelter or a stray that was rescued by some kind individual, you will not only be giving a home to a kitten that needs one, you will also be helping the feral cat population, encouraging people who try to help needy cats, and (if you pay an adoption fee) supporting your local shelter system.

If you buy from a BYB, you will be helping a kitten that needs a home, but also encouraging irresponsible breeding that leads to cats with genetic mutations, physical illness and deformity, and horrible living conditions. Is it awful that those cats may not find loving homes? Yes, of course. It's not their fault. But it's no more unfair than it would be to a stray kitten that never finds a home.

You have the chance to be a responsible consumer. Take advantage of this opportunity.
 

fiery

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Yes, it's horrible to turn away a kitten that through no fault of its own was bred by an irresponsible breeder. However, is it not equally unfair to turn away a kitten that was born a stray or through accident?
I'm not saying don't consider a shelter or stray--I'm saying to give them ALL a chance. I feel the shelters are favored way too much. I understand the benefits, but preaching total "Don't get them from free-to-good homes ads!" just seems like a damnation.

I may be wrong, but I'm under the impression that Boulder is a fairly small community, so I would be surprised if there are more than enough homes for all these kittens.
Boulder is within a quick drive from Denver and it's surroundingly massive suburbia(and rather well-to-do might I add), actually. From my home, south of denver, it's a thirty minute drive tops. It's also home to the CU Boulder campus(huge school). It's neither remote, nor a "small town".
 
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miao_kitty

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Originally Posted by Fiery

My issue with the above is as follows--

A kitten, is a kitten, no matter how it was begotten. If you forget the whole point about encouraging byb by adopting one of those kittens and simply look at the poor kittens who are stuck with those people.. what's really the difference? It's still a kitten in need, maybe even moreso than a shelter cat. Just a thought.
And this is my thought as well. And in response to an above post about a BYB kitten being sick, well my cat had a respiratory infection or whatever it's called and when I got her from the shelter and it got worse before it got better. Sure, they gave me a free vet visit but i still had to pay for following vet visits as well as medicine. And i also had to pay for some other shot and FIV test for her on top of the adoption fee....
 
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miao_kitty

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

The biggest problem I have in adopting from Craigslist is the fact that the people are placing these kittens way too early - some are letting them go at 6-8 weeks old - barely weaned and they say "they are ready to go - eating dry food and using litter pan".



Kittens need to be with the mom/siblings for 10-12 weeks minimum - a lot of kittens placed younger will have behavior/social problems. From birth to 3 months old is critical social/behavior development time - not just being able to eat solid foods and use the litter pan.

IMO keep searching but don't get a kitten under 10 weeks old if you want a good companion.
I have hear that also, and I agree with that. Actually, I called a woman yesterday who was adopting out kittens b/c I am interested in one. They are 9 weeks old and I asked her if i decided on one, if she could keep it for another week or two (since she had the mom and siblings still) and she was OK with that. So that made me happy. I know this is just one person (some other people might not be as agreeable, but...it still helps
 

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TX
It may depend on where you live, as far as what the shelters are like and how well they care for the animals, and who is placing ads on Craigslist. In my town, the main shelter is basically just a holding area for strays & owner turn-ins. They get no vet care or temperament evaluation, and most of the kittens are much too young to be away from their mothers. On the other hand, the kittens advertised on my city's Craiglist are usually being kept in someone's home, not stuffed in cages, and many people do keep them until 10-12 weeks of age. Also, many of these kittens don't belong to irresponsible owners, but were found as strays and fostered by caring people.
 
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