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What we were promised lo these 7 years ago... - Page 2

post #31 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals View Post
You know, not to poke y'all with a stick and provoke you........but.....

How do any of you know what the Iraqi people want and don't want? You're not over there, you haven't polled the people.

You see things and images taken out of context, provided to you by the world's media, who are completely aware that only sensationalism sells and gets people's attention.

Time and again I see people who have never been to Iraq and have no first hand knowledge of the conflict, claim to know what the majority of the Iraqi people want.

We all know there are factions over there that want control and do things in an attempt to gain the upper hand, but they are not the majority of the Iraqi population.
Aren't the continued attacks on Iraqi security personnel, the U.S. and U.K. forces, and interviews with Iraqi refugees in Syria, etc., enough to tell us that we might very well not have the support of the majority of the population?

I'm sorry, but as hateful as I believe Saddam to have been, I believe the whole invasion was ill-conceived, and has been mismanaged from the start. And who has been paying the price? Our servicepeople, average Iraqi citizens, neighboring countries, NATO, the West - okay, I'll shut up.
post #32 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat View Post
Aren't the continued attacks on Iraqi security personnel, the U.S. and U.K. forces, and interviews with Iraqi refugees in Syria, etc., enough to tell us that we might very well not have the support of the majority of the population?
But, aren't these attacks being carried out by the various factions renaming themselves at will? Fringe fighters wanting some power. The majority population seems to want to go on with everyday life and get back some semblance of normalcy.

Is that even possible if we leave the country like the insurgents want?

It would be really interesting to know what the average Iraqi would have to say, with no media spin put on. Not an insurgent, someone in power, the security forces or a refugee, just an average citizen caught in the middle of all the BS.
post #33 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals View Post
You know, not to poke y'all with a stick and provoke you........but.....

How do any of you know what the Iraqi people want and don't want? You're not over there, you haven't polled the people.

You see things and images taken out of context, provided to you by the world's media, who are completely aware that only sensationalism sells and gets people's attention.

Time and again I see people who have never been to Iraq and have no first hand knowledge of the conflict, claim to know what the majority of the Iraqi people want.

We all know there are factions over there that want control and do things in an attempt to gain the upper hand, but they are not the majority of the Iraqi population.
Poll:

2004- Only a third believed we were doing more good than harm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...ll-cover_x.htm
2006- Half of Iraqis approved of attacks on US forces
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi...nt=165&lb=brme
2007- Only gets worse
http://www.iraqanalysis.org/info/55

Sorry, but we do know how they feel about it. Add to that the numerous blogs, and you get a picture of a few people who are pro-US and a vast majority that wants their own country back.
post #34 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
Poll:

2004- Only a third believed we were doing more good than harm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...ll-cover_x.htm
2006- Half of Iraqis approved of attacks on US forces
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi...nt=165&lb=brme
2007- Only gets worse
http://www.iraqanalysis.org/info/55

Sorry, but we do know how they feel about it. Add to that the numerous blogs, and you get a picture of a few people who are pro-US and a vast majority that wants their own country back.
You're missing my point.

The point is..YOU... don't know. You only know what the media tells you.
post #35 of 42
I actually didn't take my opinion from the polls or from the media. I've taken my opinion that the Iraqis do not want us there from speaking with Iraqis in the United States that still have family and friends in Iraq, and then also from any number of friends that are in the service and have, in fact, first hand knowledge. There are the insurgents, but, if the insurgents take over, isn't that more or less returning their government to a state of normalcy?

I totally understand what you're saying, Nial, but I do think that polls (granted I haven't read those polls linked specifically) but if polls are taken in Iraq, aren't they just as valid as the ones taken for other topics in the various states/countries concerning said country/state? That sort of parallels saying that we don't know that the results of an election are what the people really want because we're not there, or we're not speaking to those individuals. The only real difference there is that a poll is less "official" than an election.

And I'll just make a note here, that it's a pretty good mixture of friends, both conservative and more liberal who have said that they don't want us there.. they've all served in Iraq, and out of the many of them that I know, only one has said that the Iraqi people actually do want us there. I actually considered, much like you're saying, that we don't know what they want, since we're not there... that's why I started asking soldiers who have been there. I'm certain that there are those that do want us there, as well as those who do not, but I guess the question there is, what's the majority.
post #36 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals View Post
You're missing my point.

The point is..YOU... don't know. You only know what the media tells you.
By that logic, none of us knows a single thing that we haven't experienced. I am not a solipsist. And also following that logic, not a single one of us has a right to an opinion on Iraq unless we've been there.

Please don't insult my intelligence by telling me I only know what the media tells me. I don't watch much mainstream news. And, two of those links weren't to the media at all.

Also I was responding to where you said "You're not over there, you haven't polled the people"
post #37 of 42
There's no such thing as an honest politician.
post #38 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I was listing reasons. I should have numbered them. or at least seperated them into different lines I guess.

And I will ALWAYS side with Israel, I think I have made that abundantly clear.

Please inform me of Israeli suicide bombers. What you call atrocities, I call self defense. Although I am sure Israel has made mistaked, it is Israel giving up land and wanting peace not Hamas and Fatah.
Oh right. Suicide bombing is the only evil action that takes innocent lives in the middle east. You ask for links and examples but I doubt you'll read them if I provide them. We've been down that road before. `Facts are what you say they are', remember?

Isreali forces have broken ceasefires - self defence? I think not. Israeli forces have targeted Palestinian civilians, women and children - self defence? I think not. You have made up your mind and that is fine. A closed mind is a safe haven. But don't EVER suggest that Israel are all pure and innocent in this fight because that is just rubbish. The end never justifies the means and that is true for the Israel/Palestine conflict, the war in Iraq, the war in the former Yugoslavia - there is never, ever a purely innocent party.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals View Post
I wish some of you from other countries who are bad mouthing US international policy, would realize that the freedoms and way of life you take for granted now was partially bought with the blood of citizens of this country.

If the US and it's policies didn't exist and your countries weren't allied with the US, your lives might be vastly different and not in a good way. The mere presence of the United States in global affairs keeps your countries much safer than they would be without us.
Oh great. That old chestnut. Yup, and plenty of Australians went to war and died for my country and my `freedom' too. And plenty of French, and plenty of British, and plenty of other allied nations. That argument just doesn't wash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals View Post
I don't agree with everything Bush does or says, or what past presidents have done and said either, but the big picture speaks for itself.
It sure does.

Quote:
The owner of this site lives in Israel. Some of the things being posted are pretty insulting.
I'm sure that Anne is capable of understanding a policial debate over insults to her country. I never said `Everyone from Israel is a pig' or `Israel should be obliterated' or anything that would be actually insulting. In fact, given that I come from a family of professional bridge players, and that a huge proportion of professional bridge players in WA are Jewish, and if you know anything about bridge at that level you know it's one big family, I have a first-hand knowledge of what many Jews feel about this conflict. And a great deal of them are not proud of their country at the moment.

Feel free to insult the Australian government as much as you want. I'm not so blindly nationalistic that I would defend our terrible history even though I am patriotic to my country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cata_mint View Post
As to the reasons for the war in Iraq, if Bush had said 'saddam is murdering huge numbers of people, and dumping their bodies in unmarked burial pits, I think this is wrong and we have a duty to stop this' then I would have actually supported the Iraq war.
Anyone agree?
Well, it might have been more honest. But honesty isn't really his strongest suit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals View Post
You know, not to poke y'all with a stick and provoke you........but.....

How do any of you know what the Iraqi people want and don't want? You're not over there, you haven't polled the people.

You see things and images taken out of context, provided to you by the world's media, who are completely aware that only sensationalism sells and gets people's attention.

Time and again I see people who have never been to Iraq and have no first hand knowledge of the conflict, claim to know what the majority of the Iraqi people want.

We all know there are factions over there that want control and do things in an attempt to gain the upper hand, but they are not the majority of the Iraqi population.

It would be really interesting to know what the average Iraqi would have to say, with no media spin put on. Not an insurgent, someone in power, the security forces or a refugee, just an average citizen caught in the middle of all the BS.
SO tired of seeing this argument. I'm sorry, but most of the misguided opinions that the Iraqis really want you there are nothing but media spin, either. If you want to know what the Iraqis want all you have to do is access some of their sources, some of their blogs, some of their polls, some of their news, some of their interviews. Your argument cannot possibly cover all angles unless you acknowledge that, not having been there, nobody can possibly say that they want us there, either.

There's lots of places you can access this information. All you have to do is listen to the radio - I've heard interviews with `average Iraqi citizens', I've spoken to people I work with and patients of mine who still have family there. I base my opinion on what the real people say. And what they're saying is, they want us OUT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
Please don't insult my intelligence by telling me I only know what the media tells me. I don't watch much mainstream news. And, two of those links weren't to the media at all.
Ditto. Most of us who want any real take on this war and this whole situation wouldn't touch the news with a ten-foot barge pole. There's lots and lots of places you can source much more genuine and credible information. I rarely watch the news. Really, I watch it to keep up, but apart from that I find stuff out for myself.

I know where you're coming from - there is so much hyperbole and conjecture and media spin because this war is failing miserably and the US cannot and will not find a way to bow out. There's a lot of passion and a lot of fear and a lot of horror and a lot of regret. But you cannot hide from facts and facts are readily available if you do a little more work, and if you are prepared to accept things you don't want to accept, and if you are prepared to look for all sides of an argument, not just blindly follow the opinion you want to follow, because you've made up your mind.

I know that I could be accused of this but, like a broken record, I will reiterate that I constantly look to find information that supports all viewpoints, before I come to form my own opinion. I learned that your opinion is meaningless unless it is based in solid information, and solid fact, and credible sources. It's how I was raised and it's part of what I studied at university. Unless you can examine all sides of an argument, and provide refutation for the argument you disagree with, your opinion is much less credible. So I have strong opinions, yes, but they are considered opinions, and I never face any argument with a closed mind. There just haven't been any arguments since I formed my opinion on Iraq that have been able to change it for me. But I'm still open to them all.
post #39 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
SO tired of seeing this argument
I'm also tired of the same arguments over and over on your side. It go both ways you know.

This is going no where, so I'm out. Have a good one!
post #40 of 42
It does go both ways. I can go as far as I am able to see your frustrations because I feel the same way! I think both sides really believe that they have factual evidence to rely on, and they really do. It's hard to reconcile the two because we're not talking an argument between family members here. This is two countries, one war, millions of people and a whole world. It's a tough fight - and one of the biggest in my lifetime, I believe.
post #41 of 42
No one is all pure and innocent, that goes without saying. I just believe that Israel is more pure and innocent than Fatah and Hamas and all the people that want to wipe them off the earth.

Are you telling me that the government of Israel deliberately targeted innocent women and children?
post #42 of 42
Yes. Though, not just Israel. Civilian targets are commonplace in this conflict. And you are naive and deliberately ignorant if you don't believe that.
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