Multiple breeds under one roof

cata_mint

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Maybe its because I'm a...
One thing I've always wondered- is it normal for a breeder to breed several breeds at once? I mean like bengals, siamese and mau being bred by the same person at the same time.
I can understand if its bengals and savannahs for example, what with bengals being an accepted outcross and all, but otherwise it makes them seem untrustworthy to me.
Like if they don't want to focus on improving one, then why try so many at once

And it would seem kind of risky to me, having intact males of several breeds, but i guess most good breeders never have an oops litter, even with one of the same breed.
Maybe i'm just old-fashioned, and too used to the breeders here
 

kitytize

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IMO a decent breeder who is really trying to improve the breed would not be breeding more than 2 breeds at one time.
 

sharky

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Originally Posted by kitytize

IMO a decent breeder who is really trying to improve the breed would not be breeding more than 2 breeds at one time.
Ditto... more than two breeds = alot more OPPS
 

familytimerags

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I have asked my question about breeding more than one breed as well. I breed my chosen breed of Ragdolls. There are many purebred cats, that I would "like" to breed. Let me rephrase that, I "might" like to breed. I feel I am still very much a new breeder, with 5 years in, my breed is young compared to others as well. I want to have my standard in all ways set in one breed, before I went into another breed. Then I have thought more on just that, once we were established and knew the Ragdoll breed inside and out, that we could do research on another breed, but there are 2 thoughts on this. I choose the Ragdolls, as we loved one as an altered pet, and we researched breeding with full expectations it is an expensive hobby. As much as I love and respect all other breeds, I know that my heart is with my chosen breed, and there is no reason that comes to mind that I should breed another breed.
I may one day get another breed as a pet, but in most situations I think a breeder should stay breed specific, for many reasons, learning your standard, keeping up with health concerns, keeping up with changes that may come up with your specific breed standard, improving and maintaining the breed standard in type, health, and temperament. I am a small breeder, IMO, bigger than some, smaller than most. It takes up a lot of time, I enjoy it, so I probably put more time into it as well, but again I enjoy learning, and realize the learning doesn't stop.
So, I do believe someone could breed 2 breeds, but no more than one breed, and if someone has chosen more than 1 breed, then that person should be very long experienced in each breeds genetics, their breed type, and be able to keep up with all the financial issues that may come up, and many other facets of their breed that I haven't mentioned.
JMO only.
 

goldenkitty45

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Will agree with you - IMO they can't concentrate on improving EVERY breed they have and they probably have way too many cats!

Most breeders will have one or two breeds they work with - and usually they are "similar" - like Siamese/Orientals. But when you mix in totally different breeds, then you can run into more problems.

I know the problems with a breeder who tried Maine Coons and Norweigan Forest cats - she stopped cause there was too many problems of crossing the 2 breeds. Maybe she didn't have the right set up to keep males apart, but there was more then one litter that happened as mixes - and that's not a good thing!

For the most part, its time consuming enough to work with one breed and have consistency/quality; let alone mixing in 2-3 other breeds. I question the motives of those who have Bengals, Savannahs, etc all under one roof! Seems more of a "money making" thing then improving the breed.
 

familytimerags

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Will agree with you - IMO they can't concentrate on improving EVERY breed they have and they probably have way too many cats!

Most breeders will have one or two breeds they work with - and usually they are "similar" - like Siamese/Orientals. But when you mix in totally different breeds, then you can run into more problems.

I know the problems with a breeder who tried Maine Coons and Norweigan Forest cats - she stopped cause there was too many problems of crossing the 2 breeds. Maybe she didn't have the right set up to keep males apart, but there was more then one litter that happened as mixes - and that's not a good thing!

For the most part, its time consuming enough to work with one breed and have consistency/quality; let alone mixing in 2-3 other breeds. I question the motives of those who have Bengals, Savannahs, etc all under one roof! Seems more of a "money making" thing then improving the breed.
I agree, I believe mostly, not always, but those working with multiple breeds are out there for the money.
I also question those who work with similar breeds, just an example, Persian, Himi's, Ragdolls and Ragamuffins....I feel that when and if one buys from a breeder such as this, it would be difficult to trust the parentage of the kitten, because of such similarities.

I also agree, after consuming myself and time into one breed, I would find it hard to find the time to concentrate on another breed, to the fullest attention that I feel would be needed. However, I do understand there are breeds who allow outcrosses, and that one may be well versed in both breeds, giving more time for attention and learning.
 

goldenkitty45

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Are Ragdolls a legit outcross for Ragamuffins? Were they not created from the Ragdolls originally? If so, I can see using the breeds in outcrosses, etc.

Same for the Persian/Himi's - they are all one breed now, so its logical to use both in the breeding program. Same with Siamese/Oriental.

And some of the Ocicat breeders will have one or two Abys as outcrosses in their programs (at least till 2010 - then NO more outcrosses are allowed in the Ocicat breed).
 

familytimerags

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Are Ragdolls a legit outcross for Ragamuffins? Were they not created from the Ragdolls originally? If so, I can see using the breeds in outcrosses, etc.

Same for the Persian/Himi's - they are all one breed now, so its logical to use both in the breeding program. Same with Siamese/Oriental.

And some of the Ocicat breeders will have one or two Abys as outcrosses in their programs (at least till 2010 - then NO more outcrosses are allowed in the Ocicat breed).
It depends on which orginazation. There are many breeds allowed for the Ragamuffin, and I do believe in Ragdoll is accepted. A lot of contraversy on Ragdolls and Ragamuffins. I will go some into it, but there are very much 2 sides of the coin, and I do feel it would bring up a very touchy subject for some. I also am not sure if I am completly correct, we do/did have a Ragamuffin breeder, the founder of the Ragamuffin breed, on here, you may can read his past posts, however, if I am wrong on the something, I am sure he can correct me.


I do agree, as I said, there are breeds that do have allowable outcrossing, and for those, I can see a person with more than one breed.

As far as Ragdolls/Ragamuffins, I think I can fairly say, the originated the same way, however Ragdolls broke away in the 70's to pursue the cat fancy. Ragdolls are a young breed, however, at least in TICA and CFA we do not have allowable outcrossing. Ragamuffins have gained championship status in ACFA, and have many allowable outcrosses, and have brought many other breeds and are trying to create a look different from the Ragdoll. Ragdoll is accepted as pointed blue eyed breed, however, in TICA, we do have SBT status Mink and Non-pointed (non-blue eyed) that are being bred, that are not accepted in championship status in ragdolls, and as of a year or two ago, was confirmed traced back to a Ragamuffin. The solids or non-pointed Ragdolls, is also contraversial within the breed group as to when the non-pointed was introduced into the breed, and most Ragdoll breeders have voted, as have I, to not allow the advancement of the Mink and Non-pointed Ragdolls, and to keep them a blue eyed breed only.
Ragamuffins, do have both the pointed, mink, and non-pointed with or without white, and the pattern of white for show is not important. The white can be placed anywhere when showing a Ragamuffin in ACFA.
Pointed Ragdolls do have points counted for white placement on the mitted and bicolor varieties, when shown in CFA, TICA, or ACFA for points and titles.
I believe the last I heard there was roughly 50 breeders worldwide who breed the non-pointed and mink variety Ragdolls, but that number may have increased. Typically, the price is higher as they are called "rare Ragdolls", and are papered, but there is a known outcross in the pedigree to a Ragamuffin, but in most cases it has been worked through and is SBT status and in some cases several generation SBT status in TICA.

A Ragamuffin breeder, I believe say their cats were IRCA Ragdolls, and they broke away from Ann Baker much later than those who went the cat fancy route. I "think" 1994, is when the Ragamuffin originated, but I am not positive. So far they have not been able to advance in TICA, but they may be AOV in CFA?? Sorry, I did try to keep up with it some. I mainly know TICA, and even then it is for Ragdolls. I know for Ragdolls, that CFA allows the bicolor and van for championship status, and the mitted and colorpoint are AOV. I am not completely sure of where the Ragamuffins are at in CFA.

I think the Ragamuffins are most likely in the stages of being accepted. Just like the mitted Ragdolls are proving they appear different in type than the Birman. I think that the Ragamuffin will have to prove over time that it is different than the Ragdoll. I think a lot of the hang up, that the Ragamuffins are keeping the pointed variety, but this is my speculation.

I also believe it has been asked for Ragdolls and Ragamuffins to go under the same umbrella year ago, such as the Persian and Himalayan, but there was resistance from both sides.

This is what I think I know, but I may not know much.
 

goldenkitty45

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I'd be shocked if CFA is accepting Ragamuffins! They would be the last association to do so. They don't accept Snowshoes! And that is a totally different cat - ACFA and I think TICA accept them - ACFA only accepts in seal or blue bicolor for Snowshoes. I don't see why CFA won't accept them.

But IMO CFA would accept Snowshoes over Ragamuffins. Like you said, they've only recent accepted a limited color class in Ragdolls!
 

kai bengals

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TICA doesn't recognize ragamuffins as a breed, but the snowshoe is on the breed list and I have seen them competing.
 

familytimerags

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

I'd be shocked if CFA is accepting Ragamuffins! They would be the last association to do so. They don't accept Snowshoes! And that is a totally different cat - ACFA and I think TICA accept them - ACFA only accepts in seal or blue bicolor for Snowshoes. I don't see why CFA won't accept them.

But IMO CFA would accept Snowshoes over Ragamuffins. Like you said, they've only recent accepted a limited color class in Ragdolls!
Shockingly, CFA has just limited the pattern, Ragdolls can be shown as Seal, Blue, Chocolate, Lilac, Red or Flame, Cream, Tortie, Lynx, and Torbie, as long as they are a bicolor or van patterning.

Tica allows for all the same colors as CFA, but allows the mitted and colorpoint, but not the Van pattern.

I don't know about ACFA, I know most shows seem more in the northern region, and I haven't taken the time to look into what is accepted.
 

abymummy

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

I'd be shocked if CFA is accepting Ragamuffins! They would be the last association to do so. They don't accept Snowshoes! And that is a totally different cat - ACFA and I think TICA accept them - ACFA only accepts in seal or blue bicolor for Snowshoes. I don't see why CFA won't accept them.

But IMO CFA would accept Snowshoes over Ragamuffins. Like you said, they've only recent accepted a limited color class in Ragdolls!
Ragamuffins are on the provisional list. CFA would look at any breed if the breeders approached them - with the exceptions being cats with "wild Blood" which will never be approved. The additional Ragdoll colors will be approved sooner than you or I think - it's already classified as AOV.

And to address the original question - 2 breeds to me is workable, any more than that is just asking for trouble!
 

kai bengals

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Originally Posted by FamilytimeRags

I don't know about ACFA, I know most shows seem more in the northern region, and I haven't taken the time to look into what is accepted.
I've wanted to show with ACFA as well, but they have few shows and like you mentioned, they all seem to be in the northern states. Too far to drive when there are so few shows to go to.
 

kai bengals

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Kinda got off topic..sorry!

I don't think we could manage 2 breeds very well, considering the diversity of the breed I'm working with. There's too much to keep on top of, to try to learn a new breed and manage it properly.

I would have to quit bengals and start with a different breed if I wanted to try something new.
 

familytimerags

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Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

Kinda got off topic..sorry!

I don't think we could manage 2 breeds very well, considering the diversity of the breed I'm working with. There's too much to keep on top of, to try to learn a new breed and manage it properly.

I would have to quit bengals and start with a different breed if I wanted to try something new.
What made you choose to work with Bengals? You have done very well with them. I think I have mentioned it was our whole family who decided on a Ragdoll pet first, we fell in love with one and then 2, and then decided to research breeding, so much to learn, and so far it hasn't stopped. I sometimes envy those who have non-pointeds, getting to be surprised at the diversity in colors one may get, but then again, those have to know so much more about genetic colors than I do.
It has just been since this forum, you, and then the cat shows we have recently attended, we have been benched next to a Bengals, that we have found that they are such a loving, attentive breed, fond of attention.
I could see myself researching another breed, and breeding another breed and falling in love with it the same as I have our Ragdolls, but I have vested money, time, passion, and my heart will stay with the Ragdolls. It takes a lot of money to start as a breeder, so I wouldn't want to begin fresh with another breed.
At one time, in the beginning, I thought about 2 breeds, but once further researched and in it, I realized for me, 2 breeds was not the best for us, time wise. Thankfully, my husband is just as involved with the aspects of breeding, so it is a joint effort, a mutual enjoyable hobby, and there is always something to talk about.

Also off topic, I didn't get the kitten I PM'd you about, I did the research, weighed it, and decided it wasn't the best option. I, thank you for the time and information you gave.
 

epona

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When I was looking for a breeder it became apparent that many UK breeders concentrate on 2 breeds, but they are often breeds that are in some way similar/related (Siamese & Oriental, Burmese & Asian), or where one breed is an accepted outcross for the other (BSH & SH Selkirk Rex, Persian & LH Selkirk Rex).

I would be a little concerned about any breeder who 'spread themselves too thin' by having too many breeds, simply because it would limit the time and effort they were able to put into each breed.
 

goldenkitty45

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Adeliah, I don't understand WHY CFA doesn't want the Snowshoes - they are not similar to any other breed and they are very pretty.
 
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cata_mint

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wow, i go away for less than a day and look how many replies


I thought multiple breeds was asking for trouble. I've just seen so many ads online for people who breed bengals and 'insert fashionable cat breed here', and it seemed like people tended to have 1 male, and a couple of queens for each breed, and not great examples either (as far as my uneducated eye could tell), but it had never been commented on here as far as i knew, so i thought i'd ask
 

miyu

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Well I think its hard to trust any breeder you donâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]t know. Then when you get to know they it is still hard to trust. I think someone could do more than one breed and not have a problem, where some people only breed one kind and have lots of problems, itâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]s the person as a breeder, not the type or types of cats. Iâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]m sure they would tell you if the cat was a mixed breed or pure. But I would never trust someone who keeps mixed males and females in one house- they will breed with each other, and you canâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]t say you know for sure who the father is. but if you did have 2 or more different breeds, you had better have a breeding partner one who keeps all males and one who keeps all females, there is no other way to do it and I would be suspicious of anyone who didnâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]t do it that way. so when it is time to breed you select the 2 and put them together in one room then send the stud home. And a good breeder will let you watch the kittens grow up.


But who knows because if you are preserving the breed and you are only selling as pets I donâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]t see how that is preserving.

This is something I always wondered too. To be a cat judge you need to have experience breeding 3 different types of cats not closely related, like a long haired and a short haired breed, so a bangle and a rag doll, and something elts. But I have seen people spend 10 years with just one breed, which is dedicated, so to be a judge you canâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]t be dedicated or it would take 30 or more years. But just because you are not dedicated as long as you have a male and a female that are HEALTHY and NOT RELATED, I thijnk you are preserving the breed. You could be a great breeder. It could go both ways. I guess you would learn a whole lot more about different breeds. Maybe that is why judges are breeders or multiple cats. But most people only obsess over one breed.

So I donâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]t see a difference of a breeder with one cat, compared to one with 2. If both breeders keep both males and females in the same house. Then you canâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]t trust either. But will that stop people from buying? no.

Your question is how do you know they are not selling you a mixed cat? Right? But even if they breed only ONE type, how do you know who they said was the father really was. Right? After all if they are all pure, they will all look like twins. So you have to trust the breeder.

I think the best breeders to trust, have a breeding partner and keep males and females separated in completely different homes, that way you know they were truly separated and no mistakes could happen.

Some breeders lock males in a room and say “they are separated†but that is not nice to the cat, they can smell the in heat female outside the door. And it donâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]t get to interact with the family. And they may lock them up most of the time, but not all of the time.

Like I said the best breeder will have a partner and one will keep males and one will keep females. The one who keeps the females has more responsibilities of course. They should only breed one female at a time, with a selected stud that they choose to bring over to the house and set up in a special room, a “kittening room†and only have ONE female at a time who would be mothering at one time in the kittening room. That is the only way you would ever know for sure who the father is.

This is just my opinion, everyone has their own, Because here in my house I have seen the chaos. my roommate breeds, and I donâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]t agree with how she does it. She has males “separated†but I always see them out which is only fair for the poor cat. And all the kittens look alike and the mothers all trade kittens.
 

kai bengals

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Originally Posted by Miyu

Well I think its hard to trust any breeder you don’t know. Then when you get to know they it is still hard to trust. I think someone could do more than one breed and not have a problem, where some people only breed one kind and have lots of problems, it’s the person as a breeder, not the type or types of cats. I’m sure they would tell you if the cat was a mixed breed or pure. But I would never trust someone who keeps mixed males and females in one house- they will breed with each other, and you can’t say you know for sure who the father is. but if you did have 2 or more different breeds, you had better have a breeding partner one who keeps all males and one who keeps all females, there is no other way to do it and I would be suspicious of anyone who didn’t do it that way. so when it is time to breed you select the 2 and put them together in one room then send the stud home. And a good breeder will let you watch the kittens grow up.


But who knows because if you are preserving the breed and you are only selling as pets I don’t see how that is preserving.

This is something I always wondered too. To be a cat judge you need to have experience breeding 3 different types of cats not closely related, like a long haired and a short haired breed, so a bangle and a rag doll, and something elts. But I have seen people spend 10 years with just one breed, which is dedicated, so to be a judge you can’t be dedicated or it would take 30 or more years. But just because you are not dedicated as long as you have a male and a female that are HEALTHY and NOT RELATED, I thijnk you are preserving the breed. You could be a great breeder. It could go both ways. I guess you would learn a whole lot more about different breeds. Maybe that is why judges are breeders or multiple cats. But most people only obsess over one breed.

So I don’t see a difference of a breeder with one cat, compared to one with 2. If both breeders keep both males and females in the same house. Then you can’t trust either. But will that stop people from buying? no.

Your question is how do you know they are not selling you a mixed cat? Right? But even if they breed only ONE type, how do you know who they said was the father really was. Right? After all if they are all pure, they will all look like twins. So you have to trust the breeder.

I think the best breeders to trust, have a breeding partner and keep males and females separated in completely different homes, that way you know they were truly separated and no mistakes could happen.

Some breeders lock males in a room and say “they are separated” but that is not nice to the cat, they can smell the in heat female outside the door. And it don’t get to interact with the family. And they may lock them up most of the time, but not all of the time.

Like I said the best breeder will have a partner and one will keep males and one will keep females. The one who keeps the females has more responsibilities of course. They should only breed one female at a time, with a selected stud that they choose to bring over to the house and set up in a special room, a “kittening room” and only have ONE female at a time who would be mothering at one time in the kittening room. That is the only way you would ever know for sure who the father is.

This is just my opinion, everyone has their own, Because here in my house I have seen the chaos. my roommate breeds, and I don’t agree with how she does it. She has males “separated” but I always see them out which is only fair for the poor cat. And all the kittens look alike and the mothers all trade kittens.
There are some problems with your theory. But the main one is whole males will NOT get along with each other for long in the same household. They must be seperated from each other. Serious fights will occur.
So, having the males together with a partner breeder won't work. The males must be in seperate areas.
And let's not forget that unaltered males spray. Given run of the house they will hose the whole house down.
Keeping them in seperate rooms, gives them security and a "territory", which cuts down the need to spray tremedously.

The key to keeping happy males is giving them the attention they deserve and retiring them early to live out a happy pet life. But, they are not to roam amongst the females.

I have a cattery, my males all have their own rooms. They are big rooms, with room to run. They are very content and I have never had an accidental breeding in 10 years I've been doing this.

The way to feel that a breeder is trustworthy, is to visit their cattery and make your own mind up from there.
 
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