Whiskey just tried to attack Norris!!!

fosterkitty · Jun 14, 2007

Originally Posted by crittermom

There are SOME that can't be trained. I don't care what kind of work you do with them, some can't be saved.I took ours to the shelter to hold while I was contacting rescue to go and get him.The workers at the shelter told me to come down and sign for him to be PTS because he was so food vicious.He actually lungeded at the workers over his food.This coming from a dog that was raised with my 4 kids from 12 weeks old to 1 1/2 years old.He NEVER ever showed any kind of aggression until one day he snarled at our female pup.He tried to bite her.I seperated them and kept them away from each other at feeding time.
That was fine, until the day he went after my son.It was then that I feared that dog and what he would to to my children.I will never ever take that chance again with a food/toy aggressive dog.
I should add that until that point, he would let the kids waller all over him, anything and he would do nothing.I trusted this dog with my children and thought he'd keep them safe..........not harm them.
Now, thanks to him--I can't trust ANY animal 100%.

I would be willing to bet the lives of all my animals that what was wrong with your dog had absolutley nothing to do with food aggression. If you took him to a vet, then good for you, but what you are describing sounds totally neurological, not behavioral.

april31 · Jun 14, 2007

All I am gonna say is this must be a hard time for you. You know whats best for you and your family. And im sure you will do the best for the situation whatever you decide.

starryeyedtiger · Jun 15, 2007

Originally Posted by white cat lover

Guess it kinda sounded like Ophelia vs. Lily to me. I sitll don't know why Ophelia started to attack Lily after living together for months.So, perhaps if you act now, you can re-train Whiskey(not Norris) & work with him!

Do you have a crate for Whiskey & a place for it? That might not be a bad idea. One more thing, was today a "normal" day or did anything change recently?

I do have a crate- but Norris is in one and Fancy (foster kitten is in another one) and Jasmine our siamese is in the other (medical issues right now) So no extra crate for Whiskey. Nothing changed dramatically- it was a "normal day" when it happened so that is what threw me for a loop

Originally Posted by Jenny82

After reading everything, that's what I would do too. Rehoming him after one incident that was very out of character seems a little sudden to me. Good luck- that must have been scary.

We weren't just going to rehome him after that one incedent- we just started talking about it if it happens again i believe we might look into it- because to be honest- i can not have an aggressive dog in our home like that. My nieces and nephews are over almost every single day and i constantly have foster animals in and out as well as my own. He would have absolutely killed Norris if i had not interviened. That was very scarry. But you are right- since that is a bit out of character for Whiskey- we are planning on trying to work with him and nip those behaviors in the bud before it gets bad. I spent a long time yesterday working with him and reintroduced all of them again. It all went great- so that makes me think it was just a one time thing (i hope!) and that Norris just scared Whiskey when he was hopping by but i honestly do not know.

Originally Posted by april31

If you have a dog crate I might even suggest feeding him in it. There he will know his food is safe and not feel threatend. Also its a safe place for him and the other animals/people.

Whiskey and Fosters eat together and get along well (seperate from my other animals now) and Norris has always eaten in his cage. My cats eat in another room on top of furniture so the dogs can not get their food. Whiskey and Fosters are trained to stay out of the guest room (where we feed the cats) so that's never a problem. I think Norris just scared Whiskey and that's why Whiskey snapped...it's just even then....Whiskey was really trying to get to him and that's what makes me nervous. Thankyou soo much for being soo kind and offering up good suggestions

Originally Posted by Fostermomm

I personally would wait and see. Since hes never done this before. Ive had plenty of dogs and every once in awhile they will have a scrap no matter how much they love each other. Give it a week or to and see if he shows any sign of it again. Every time you feed him stay with him and take a little bit of food away each time. When I was married I had 3 food aggressive dogs but we worked it out. I never feed dogs together food aggressive or not. It really is asking for trouble.

Thankyou for the idea hon! Fosters and Whiskey have always been fed seperate from the other animals (in the kitchen) but what happened was- Norris' crate is in the kitchen with his food/water in it- and he was passing by whiskey leaving his crate while whiskey was eating and i think norris's loud hopping (he's loud on the kitchen floor with just 3 legs) scared whiskey - perhaps he even tripped on him- but i'm not sure.

Originally Posted by Miagi's_Mommy

Nikki,

you know I love you and I would wait and see what happens. is this the first time Whiskey has done this? Has he tried to go after the kitties as well?
I support your decision 100% if you rehome him. 3 out of the 4 of my dogs are food aggressive. We do not give them food in the same room or treats.

I don't know what got into Whiskey but I hope this never happens again.

It' sure is awful when they fight, isn't it? I bet that really scared you. but if Whiskey is going to be a threat to Norris and the kitties, I would rehome him and if you do rehome him make sure you tell his new owners that he has some food aggression issues and that he cannot be around other animals at all.

It just seems to me he may be jealous of Norris? I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide and will back you up 100% in whatever you decide.

Thankyou for being sooo sweet and supportive Krista

You're such a good friend

I do not think Whiskey is jealous of Norris- we've been giving TONS of attention to him to try and help prevent that. I do think Whiskey sees Norris as a threat because Whiskey is the smallest of the 3 dogs (not by much though!) and Norris is a bit larger than him-but Norris is extremly gentle around him. Whiskey has chased my kitties before (not just playing like fosters might do- but trying to really chase them). We worked on that and he no longer does that. He will also jump up and snap at my foster kittens if i'm bottle feeding them and move them around a bit....but as soon as i tell him "down" he stops immediately and then tries to bathe them

I don't think he knows if they are a squeaky toy or a non-chew item

but after working with him on that a lot-he doesn't do that anymore eithor. We REALLY try to work with our pups. We have the ones that many times nobody wants. A VERY VERY active/hyper Aussie, the Carolina Dog who nobody wanted and was severly abused (whiskey- that's why i REALLY do not want to rehome him! he's our baby and i would feel aweful about that.) and a 3 legger who was allowed to take a 3 story fall by an irresponsible owner and had to have a leg amputated. We REALLY do try and work with them on a daily basis and go over training/play/etc. I love my boys and it really upsets me to even think about having to rehome one- but my first though was "what if" next time it's my nieces or nephews....and eventually we want kids- i would not want him to get scared by a young child giving him a hug and then trying to hurt them. BUT that's a big "what if" and he seems to get along well with my nieces/nephews well at the moment- always gentle around them- never has tried to hurt/charge them so maybe it was just a one time thing- i hope!

Originally Posted by adymarie

Wow - that must have been stressful for all 3 of you! I can't add anything helpful, but I hope that Whiskey's behaviour was a 1 off and won't happen again!

Good luck!

Thankyou ady

Originally Posted by crittermom

Nikki, I would be VERY leary of him now.I would NOT let any small children around him.OUr Cocker started out as being that way with my Mom's dog.He then lunged and BIT my son on the face.
I'm sorry, but I think he is an accident waiting to happen.I do not now nor ever will trust a food/toy or anything aggressive dog.

We are watching him like a hawk right now Tammy.

Originally Posted by white cat lover

I must throw out here. My Coco, our purebred Chco Lab, is food aggressive. She will let kids sit on her head, pull her ears, everything & anything can be done to her. It's a matter of training. They can be trained out of being food aggressive. (There are many food agressive dogs that come through our shelter & we always work with them to try to train them out of it.)

Your Coco is such a pretty pup!

And i do agree that some dogs can be trained out of food aggression- but it simply just depends on the dog. Sometimes with even the best training- some dogs just will not budge and can get worse and worse. I've seen sooooo many shelter dogs do that (And our shelter is great- we really try and work with them all!) and sometimes even with the best training it does not stop- that is what makes me nervous. So i'm praying that Whiskey is the type who will respond well to training as far as this goes and not repeat this behavior. Yesterday i talked to both of my bosses and another coworker about what happened while we were at lunch and they said just wait and see (BUT one of my bosses- the one who does not trust Whiskey- he tried to eat her up one day when she came over and was at the door- but i told her that was just him being protective of me since he doesnt know her - as soon as we told him sit- he calmed down and let her in- she said that she doesn't trust him). So i dunno- as of right now we're going to just wait and see what happens and keep working with him constantly as well as watch him around the clock. Norris is kept in his crate when i am not home so that helps. And Fosters and Whiskey have run of the house (but know not to go in the cat room). I also called one of the animal trainers i've used before yesterday and talked with her at length about what happened so she gave me a few good ideas/etc to help with it and hopefully it won't happen again! We are really trying to work with him and all so it doesn't happen again.

Originally Posted by crittermom

There are SOME that can't be trained. I don't care what kind of work you do with them, some can't be saved.I took ours to the shelter to hold while I was contacting rescue to go and get him.The workers at the shelter told me to come down and sign for him to be PTS because he was so food vicious.He actually lungeded at the workers over his food.This coming from a dog that was raised with my 4 kids from 12 weeks old to 1 1/2 years old.He NEVER ever showed any kind of aggression until one day he snarled at our female pup.He tried to bite her.I seperated them and kept them away from each other at feeding time.
That was fine, until the day he went after my son.It was then that I feared that dog and what he would to to my children.I will never ever take that chance again with a food/toy aggressive dog.
I should add that until that point, he would let the kids waller all over him, anything and he would do nothing.I trusted this dog with my children and thought he'd keep them safe..........not harm them.
Now, thanks to him--I can't trust ANY animal 100%.

I do agree- some animals, no matter how much you work with them/try to train them can not have food aggression/aggression entirely worked out of them. Part of behavior is genetic part of it is how their raised /trained. Sometimes you can raise a dog and train it as best as possibly- but if you get a dog who should not have been allowed to breed - having pups....sometimes aggression can be a genetic thing, that try as we may- we can not always work with. It is those instances that the dog should be in a home without kids or other animals OR in a very severe instance where they're trying to go after everyone- it may become necessary for the dog to be pts. I hate to say that but sometimes that is the safest course of action. Working at a shelter we get many dogs like that in- it's quite sad. That being said- we also get dogs in who are owner surrendered that their owners claimed were "food aggressive" yet when we work with them- they are NEVER aggressive about food/etc. (i think some owners just give lame excuses) so it just depends i suppose.

Originally Posted by fosterkitty

just because a dog went after aanother DOG does not mean he will go after your cats, or kids, or you, or anyone. Doesn't even mean he will go after the dog again. Food aggressiveness is easily trainable. I have a food aggressive dog who I used to not be able to feed in the same room as my golden retriever. Now they eat in the same room. The cats do not bother her, nor do people. You need to look into training and a behaviorist before you jump the gun and rehome him. Taking him to a shelter is a sure death sentence. If people worked with their dogs before giving up on them, we would have far less animals in shelters. You work in a shelter, you should know this. And you don't even have kids yet, so you have plenty of time to do this.

I work at our local animal shelter. And his behavior that he exhibited that night makes me quite leary. He has shown other signs before- this is not the first time- just the worst instance. I am not jumping the gun on this- we are not just going to take him to my shelter after one time- but we are talking openly about what the best course of action might be as far as he goes right now. We feel that we are going to take a "wait and see" approach at the moment. I have seen what severly aggressive dogs can do at our shelter (whiskey is nowhere near the calibur of some of those former dogs) but i am leary enough to be concerned and try to get the best help for him. This is after i talked to both of my bosses and a coworker at my shelter as well as the bahaviorist i've used before. ALL of our dogs are highly trained and we work with them on a daily basis. So yes, i know if people worked with their dogs before "giving up" on them there would not be as many in shelters- i did not need that comment seeing as how i work at one and have to deal with irresponsible owners on a daily basis. The purpose of this thread was to get polite opinions before we made a decision like that and to also look at the suggestions others might make that could help hi. So i'm not jumping the gun or giving up on him right now- i just want to make sure i am doing what's right/safe and in the best interest of our little family. I have talked with both of my bosses, my coworkers (all highly experienced with animals/behavior), our behaviorist, and the vet about this. So it's not like i'm just going to dump him off tomorrow because he tried to hurt Norris. I would never give up on my furbabies soo easily like that. I am trying to work with him and just keep a close watch over him. This is a very big concern for me and i am trying to think about what is in the best interest of whiskey and our family-it could be in his best interest for us to rehome him so he could be an only dog- but i would rather not do that unless absolutely necessary.Also about kids- it is a HUGE concern for me because my nieces and nephews are over at my house almost on a daily basis...and in addition to that we eventually want kids.....so while it might seem to you like we wouldn't have to worry about that now- we do since we have children over all the time. So that's another factor that was concerning me (but so far he gets along well with them and has never been aggressive- so that is good.) I'm sorrry if i upset you and made you think i was just going to dump him off at a shelter

That is not the case- i love my animals more than anyone could imagine- i would never even have brought this up if it did not sincerly concern me and worry me. I brought this up because i was upset and wanted to see if other members could make suggestions/etc that might help curb this behavior before it gets bad.We are trying to work with Whiskey and really hoping that this behavior does not repeat itself again.

Originally Posted by fosterkitty

I would be willing to bet the lives of all my animals that what was wrong with your dog had absolutley nothing to do with food aggression. If you took him to a vet, then good for you, but what you are describing sounds totally neurological, not behavioral.

That's also something we addressed when we called the vet and the behaviorist yesterday. Thankyou for brining that up -that is a very good point.

The vet and behaviorist as well as my bosses and i seem to think he just got spooked and snapped but we are not 100% sure. Whiskey was severely abused by former owners -so i think just nervousness/jumpiness has a lot to do with that. The vet said if he repeats this behavior we need to bring him in and have a neurological evaluation done- so Colin and I both agreed to do this if we need to down the road just to see.

Originally Posted by april31

All I am gonna say is this must be a hard time for you. You know whats best for you and your family. And im sure you will do the best for the situation whatever you decide.

Thankyou April for being soo sweet and supportive!!!

starryeyedtiger · Jun 15, 2007

All three are doing good so far now that i've reintroduced everyone again!

They all played for a good half hour earlier and are now sleeping all over the living room

adymarie · Jun 15, 2007

Originally Posted by StarryEyedTiGeR

All three are doing good so far now that i've reintroduced everyone again!

They all played for a good half hour earlier and are now sleeping all over the living room

Good, hopefully things will get back to normal.

starryeyedtiger · Jun 15, 2007

Originally Posted by adymarie

Good, hopefully things will get back to normal.

Thanks Ady! I hope so too! All seems to be going well so far this morning

The behaviorist called a little while ago to check on them (she's a close friend) so she was happy to hear that as well

adymarie · Jun 15, 2007

Originally Posted by StarryEyedTiGeR

Thanks Ady! I hope so too! All seems to be going well so far this morning

The behaviorist called a little while ago to check on them (she's a close friend) so she was happy to hear that as well

I am glad you have a behavourist to check with. I know that you will do everything in your power to help Whiskey and Norris!

starryeyedtiger · Jun 15, 2007

Originally Posted by adymarie

I am glad you have a behavourist to check with. I know that you will do everything in your power to help Whiskey and Norris!

She's really sweet!

I recommend her to all of the people who come into our shelter and adopt a dog/pup

crittermom · Jun 15, 2007

Originally Posted by fosterkitty

I would be willing to bet the lives of all my animals that what was wrong with your dog had absolutley nothing to do with food aggression. If you took him to a vet, then good for you, but what you are describing sounds totally neurological, not behavioral.

I'm sorry to say that,if you were really betting the lives of your animals, they wouldn't be here now.
Yes, I took him to the Vets for a complete check up........blood work and all.NOTHING was wrong with him.Rescue got him, tried to train him and he WAS PTS for his aggression when he tried to nail one of the trainers.Goes to show not all of them can be saved.His was behavioral and my child wore the scars of fear for years because of it.

Nikki, you know you have my support with what ever you chose to do.

you are a wonderful,loving and caring Mom to the critters.

fosterkitty · Jun 15, 2007

Nikki, I'm glad you are taking every step to make sure that everything gets back on the right track. Coming from someone who has a food aggressive dog, I know that a lot of times, it can be worked out. While I still make sure treats are given seperately and in crates, we have no had any fights in over 6 months. I wish you luck.

starryeyedtiger · Jun 15, 2007

he growled again. this time it was when i walked past his food dish. i immedately corrected him and he stopped. this is starting to concern me. colin and i are going to have to talk about this when he gets back in town tonight. at least he is correcting quickly now though.

natalie_ca · Jun 15, 2007

Originally Posted by StarryEyedTiGeR

he growled again. this time it was when i walked past his food dish. i immedately corrected him and he stopped. this is starting to concern me. colin and i are going to have to talk about this when he gets back in town tonight. at least he is correcting quickly now though.

Maybe he is feeling threatened by the number of animals in the house? Kind of a survival thing?

You did just recently bring your 3 cats from your Mom's, plus you have Norris and foster kittens, in addition to him and the other animals you already had.

april31 · Jun 15, 2007

Yeah if hes growling at you now it could be a pob. And I know this might upset some people on here but.. I know for myself I will not have a dog that im scared of or scared for someone/somthing else. We had to give up a rottwieller(sp) bcause she was food aggresive. It was a very hard choice but I couldnt be scared that she could bite my children.

I hope things turn out ok for you.

starryeyedtiger · Jun 15, 2007

Originally Posted by Natalie_ca

Maybe he is feeling threatened by the number of animals in the house? Kind of a survival thing?

You did just recently bring your 3 cats from your Mom's, plus you have Norris and foster kittens, in addition to him and the other animals you already had.

The cats have been here for several months now and he doesn't have a problem with them. The foster kitten he doesn't see- her kennel is on top of the dryer and away from him. And Norris- he had been here at least two weeks (gradually introduced properly and everything) with no problems before Whiskey started to do this. I'm going to call the behaviorist and the vet back on Monday and see what they say. He did correct easily when i corrected him so that is good- he is responding and learning at least. This is just frusterating though and makes me very uneasy. One moment he's ok and the next he just starts acting weird.

Originally Posted by april31

Yeah if hes growling at you now it could be a pob. And I know this might upset some people on here but.. I know for myself I will not have a dog that im scared of or scared for someone/somthing else. We had to give up a rottwieller(sp) bcause she was food aggresive. It was a very hard choice but I couldnt be scared that she could bite my children.

I hope things turn out ok for you.

It doesn't upset me to hear that hon- what would upset me is if he hurt someone. I'm going to call the vet and behaviorist back on Monday and see what they have to say/suggest. This is making me a bit nervous to be around him with him acting unpredictable at the moment. I love my dog- i REALLY do, so this breaks my heart to watch him do this. Until i get this all settled though- i do not plan to bring home any more foster animals at the moment. Fancy (who he doesn't even see) should be going back in the next week or two as soon as she weighs enough to be spayed....and Norris will be up for adoption as soon as he's better as well.

fosterkitty · Jun 15, 2007

I would start NILIF immediately.

starryeyedtiger · Jun 15, 2007

Originally Posted by fosterkitty

I would start NILIF immediately.

what is NILIF?

natalie_ca · Jun 15, 2007

Originally Posted by StarryEyedTiGeR

what is NILIF?

I looked it up on the net..

Nothing in Life is Free

Behaviour Modification
.
.
.
.

starryeyedtiger · Jun 15, 2007

Originally Posted by Natalie_ca

I looked it up on the net..

Nothing in Life is Free

Behaviour Modification
.
.
.
.

Thankyou for looking up those links for me

I wasn't familiar with the term. After reading through the suggestions however -i have to say- just about every single thing mentioned in those links- we already do with our dogs

So that kind of leaves me wondering "what else" we can try seeing how this isn't working well.

natalie_ca · Jun 15, 2007

Have you tried that Feliway stuff or that flower stuff in his food? Sorry can't help you with names or links... I just remember reading that others had tried such things with success.

fosterkitty · Jun 15, 2007

I would just start off at square one. Make sure Whiskey does not get on the furniture, he eats last, he goes outside last, he gets treats last. I would stick a 6 foot leash on him as well so you have the upper hand if he should start a fight again, just let him drag it around. Do everything you can to make sure he knows that you are in charge, not him. Oh, and hand feed him, every meal. Take him in a room with just the 2 of you, and kibble by kibble, feed him his meal. Thats what I did with Sage and I can now stick my hands in her bowl, take treats and bones out of her mouth, etc. Put him in a down/stay, and talk to him in a nice way while you feed him. You may never be able to trust him with food around other animals, but that is manageable, just feed in crates or seperate rooms. You want to feel safe around him though. Let us know how things are going.

Also, if he comes up to you to be petted or get attention, ignore ignore ignore!! He only gets attention and pets when you say its ok. That a sign of dominant behavior, and Sage still does it every once in awhile. Like, I'll pet her, and when I stop she will paw my arm. Thats a no no in this house. But it's much less often now.

Whiskey just tried to attack Norris!!!

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