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Godiva - picture of Tobie's sister

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
Godiva, on another site I've got someone who's helping me with genetics and was mentioning Tobie and the littermates.

I need the picture of his silver tabby sister - can't find it in your other threads - thanks
post #2 of 29
I totally missed this! It's been a while since I've browsed these threads.

I'm getting ready to leave now, but I'll post some links in this thread tonight.

You have to tell me what they are saying, now... that's the deal!
post #3 of 29
Thread Starter 
Will post you the link privately - you may have to sign up (free) at the site before you can access it. Its pretty helpful
post #4 of 29
Sure! Just PM me the URL.

I am at my in-laws right now, so I was able to snap some pics of the two kits that went to them too. I'll include them.


A sister (Lucy or Lacy, one of the two)

Brother Tux

Brother Harley

That should be enough, right?
If you need any other pics, let me know. Maybe I'll post on there to see if they have any more questions.
post #5 of 29
I think we ALL needed to see these pics. Gorgeous babies!
post #6 of 29
Wow Lucy/Lacy is half Tobie, half Sofia!!!

Sneakers and Ziggy really did produce an absolutely beautiful bunch of unique looking kittens!
post #7 of 29
She does! Her sister (also at the same house) is a tad darker with markings like Tux... white paws and neck.

Harley (the last pics) is solid as a brick. He's not as tall or long as Ziggy, but he's definitely more muscular. Not a bit of fat on him, not even in between his legs! Tux is tiny still, but according to my MIL, he's the outgoing one that hunts and plays and destroys knick knacks, while Harley just prefers to snuggle.
post #8 of 29
They are just gorgeous and unique. It would be really intersting to understand their genetics. GK if you get any neat answers would you share with us all.
post #9 of 29
Thread Starter 
This in part of her reply about Tobie (from "Lotus")

Looks rather like possible mink pattern in Tobie (in the 2nd and 3rd photos of Tobie), who appears to be Choc Silver Ticked. Sister (1st photo in your post) appears to be Choc Silver Ticked. The posed photo of Tobie sitting up (1st photo of Tobie and a magnificent photo) clearly shows the cat as a Choc Ticked Silver Tabby, with the silver being high grade... Parents appear to be Choc/Brown Tabby (can't see which actual tabby pattern in this photo) x Blue (obviously carrying choc), with one parent, at least, being silver (hard to see in this particular photo and possibly only low grade). Choc is dark in all cases, might be Brown, but more likely is that the colour is dark and cold toned due to presence of silver gene. Interestingly, a ticked pattern kitten can be produced by 2 cats who are themselves derived from ticked breeding (one of whom must of course actually be agouti), who do not themselves express the ticked pattern, but who each carry one copy of the ticked gene. Also the non agouti mother may in fact be masking the ticked pattern (all cats have an underlying genetic tabby pattern). Whilst I have not had this scenario occur here, as I work predominantly with actual Ticked tabbies and tabby points that are genetically ticked, and of course selfs directly from ticked breeding who then mask ticked, this has been seen over and over again in Oriental Tabby breeding. Hence a Ticked tabby from a self x a mackerel/other pattern tabby. My tabby patterns of choice are Ticked and Classic (which most of mine carry). Rarely do I have the spotted and mac patterns, only occasionally. One of my reasons for using the ticked pattern is to gain clarity of coat (ie. no ghost spotting or barring) in the selfs from this breeding, also in smokes (such as my Red Smoke OLH girl), as these self and smokes will mask the ticked pattern (it is their underlying, genetic tabby pattern), and also in tabby points that are genetically ticked tabbies, pattern wise. It is also a stunning pattern when correct (no spots or barring on the body).
Catherine (catsofamarin), if you are reading this can you post that interesting link regarding tabby patterns, which I have lost again.

In all colours, there is also wide variation of expression of colour shades, light and dark, good and bad, and this is affected even further by colours carried, and also by presence of the silver gene which often makes colour appear dark and cold, particularly in chocs. Colour development also needs to be allowed for and this can take some time in some cats. Ambient light, especially in photos (and in many show venues) also is a factor in how a colour appears (this is why photos are often unreliable in indicating true colour, especially in tricky colours).
As Michele says above, if you start mixing silver, mink (Tonk/Burmese dilution factor), points, dilute, and so forth, whether knowingly or not (when not done knowingly, this is usually due to recessives), weird and wonderful results are possible.

I will link the pictures of the siblings to her and see what she says regarding them - thanks Godiva
post #10 of 29
Wow! Very interesting. Those girls know their stuff for sure! Thanks for posting their reply.

So here is another person who thinks they could be sepia/mink/Burmese gene. I am actually starting to lean that way, it just seems more likely to me than chocolate silver ticked. Maybe there's such thing as a sepia silver (not officially of course, perhaps just not a combo seen often).

Tell her I live in a dungeon with few windows and it's difficult to get pics with good sunlight. It's hard to get pics of daddy that don't make him look chocolate, but he's not. I've seen chocolate tabbies at shows (and of course your Charlie) and he basically has too many colors for it. Maybe that info will help.
post #11 of 29
Thread Starter 
Whatever the genetics, I get the feeling its more on the father's side - perhaps he has more of a variety of "weird" colors in the genes. The Scottish Fold normally doesn't accept those type of colors (mink, burmese, chocolate).

Will check and see if she's posted anything more of interest regarding the family.
post #12 of 29
Yeah, but the breeder I got Sneakers from also bred Burmese (same breeder I got Godiva from). I doubt she was an unethical breeder, but I guess it's always a possibility. I love them no matter how they came about, of course. It's just interesting.
post #13 of 29
wonderfull interesting stuff GK.

The variations between Tobie and his syblings I think is facinating. Between coat color, pattern, eye color, etc.

I know very little about the ticked gene but I though it very interesting she prefers to breed with ticked tabbies due to lack of ghosting in the self colors.

The agouti point was interesting too. One sibling looks similar to Ra, my sister's Aby.

These kitties are just really interesting, even more so because they are a bit of a mystery.

Thanks for sharing this threak GK and Godiva.
post #14 of 29
One more question... maybe I am confusing sepia ticked and chocolate (+/-silver)? I reread her post and it sounds like they are basically the same thing (plus or minus the silver, that's not the part I'm worried about). Does the chocolate color only come about when a Burmese-type gene is involved? Or can it exist without that dilution factor? Would I be correct assuming that a sepia ticked tabby would look the same as a chocolate ticked tabby, or are they different?

This stuff is so much fun.
post #15 of 29
One last question, I promise. What does "high grade silver" mean? I assume it means there is more color than no color... that the lack of color at the base of the hair does not go down very far.
post #16 of 29
Thread Starter 

I think that its more of a "culture" thing - England/Australia folks called colors a little different then we do. For example in the Abys our "red" is called "sorral" there.

From what I've been told the Burmese chocolate is really more of a "black" then a true chocolate genetically. In the Ocicats the chocolates came from the chocolate point siamese and the tawnys came from the seal point.

And maybe there are calling sepia and chocolate the same. I think on the Singapuras coat that color is "chocolate" and is called sepia.

Not sure on the high grade silver. Look at Tobie's coat and see how much silver/white there is compared to the chocolate ticking - let me know.

I'm gonna try and find the color genetics from the ocicat to see if it helps or just makes it more confusing to us I know an ocicat breeder had it on his website and will post the link.

Here's the Ocicat genetics (in part):

First the colors

The Black (B) pattern color was inherited from both the Aby and the Siamese, the Chocolate (b) was inherited from the Siamese and Cinnamon (bl) inherited from the Aby. The silver (I, inhibitor gene, in other words inhibits color) ground color was brought in with the American Shorthair.
From all the breeds we have probably introduced the
modifier gene (d) for dilution turning black to blue,
chocolate to lavender and cinnamon to fawn.

Here is a link for a color chart on Ocicats.

Once you have read anything on genetics you will realize that ALL cats are "tabbies".

An Ocicat is a spotted cat whose pattern follows that of a "classic" pattern. For this reason our standard carries 40 points for pattern alone.

We believe the spotted pattern was inherited from the
Siamese, as many Siamese in the era that produced the first Ocicat showed a spotted pattern on their torsos especially as they aged and darkened. We also now believe that the spots are modifying a pattern. Therefore it in itself is not a separate PATTERN, it just modifies genetically whatever pattern the cat carries. In the early days Ocicats carried both classic and mackerel patterns, both of which could be modified by the spotted gene. We found that working with the mackerel pattern was hard as it produced spots in sort of a tiger pattern causing elongated spots as opposed to the more pleasing rounder thumb print shape spots. Since mackerel is dominant over classic it was easy
enough to eliminate mackerel from the gene pool by not
using mackerel patterned cats to reproduce thus leaving us today with all classic patterned cats.

Because the Ocicat can still be outcrossed to Abys we still need to deal with another coat pattern and that is
TICKED (T). First generation cross to an Aby will produce all offspring with ticked coats. Although the spotted modifier may still be there with a ticked coat it usually only shows as small spotting or as we call it "trout" spotting. Second generation of a spotted bred to a ticked can produce spotted but also ticked AND our none spotted variety.

Since the spotted modifier is dominant we see in litters
the non spotted variety, or we just call them classic. And since the Ocicat is an "agouti" cat and that gene is also dominant we also get non-agouti or solid.

Gone but not forgotten is the Siamese gene (cs), although rare it does show itself. This produces a blue eyed pointed spotted cat which we call "ivories".

The majority of reputable breeders do their homework. We deal with color, pattern and body conformation genes when we work to produce the "perfect" Ocicat. We have to take ALL that in consideration when producing what you see today as the OCICAT.
post #17 of 29
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
For example in the Abys our "red" is called "sorral" there.

Singapuras coat that color is "chocolate" and is called sepia.
You're right about the sepia, I *think* the red Aby's are Cinnamon though.

ETA It is cinnamon
post #18 of 29
Thread Starter 
Ok then is it the Ruddys that are called Sorrel? I get them mixed up with you all
post #19 of 29
Tawny is ruddy. I think the UK has Sorrel?

I'll PM you in a second with some links, Demetri is bugging me to go to bed
post #20 of 29
The Burmese brown color is really just an all-over seal color... not really a chocolate, like you said I guess.

Tobie's tail is not seal at all... dark, and more grey, but not seal at all, so I guess perhaps he really is a sepia/chocolate. I think we figured it out. And there might be a little silver in there as well... it's not very strong, though. The hairs are about a little more than half white and and little less than half chocolate, but on the back of his neck ruff only the very tips are chocolate.

Oh well... I just need to find a diplomatic way to handle with a judge decides he should be a "lynx point."

I used to think the pointed gene was just that... only producing pointed cats. I think it's so cool that that same gene (in various strengths, so to speak) can produce such a wide variety of interesting colors.... the mink, sepia, Burmese brown... and we have so much to learn, it seems!
post #21 of 29
Thread Starter 
Another interesting thing - I always thought that silvers (tabby) had to have green eye color and was gonna comment about the gold eye color on her. However, reading the ASH standard for CFA; silver tabbies can have gold, green or hazel eye color.

The shaded silvers HAVE to have green eyes - no other color allowed. That's interesting to me when you both have the "silver" gene involved.
post #22 of 29
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Another interesting thing - I always thought that silvers (tabby) had to have green eye color and was gonna comment about the gold eye color on her. However, reading the ASH standard for CFA; silver tabbies can have gold, green or hazel eye color.

The shaded silvers HAVE to have green eyes - no other color allowed. That's interesting to me when you both have the "silver" gene involved.
Yes, I have had others comment similarly about the green eyes... from some of the judges and fellow exhibitors. Sofia and Tux have very golden eyes... very nearly to the point of being orange (in real life, they are orange if you ask me). They are a more rust orange than their mothers, whose eyes are neon orange (if she opens them). I thought I had remembered that color eyes on silver tabbies in ASHs before, so I never really believed them that they HAD to have green eyes... maybe the standard calls for it in some breeds, doesn't mean it can't happen, I figured.

Tobie, Harley, Lacy, and Lucy all have the same color eyes... it's a pale yellow with a little bit of light green in the middle. They aren't the aqua of a mink (maybe a poor aqua) or the green of a shaded silver. I think that's been part of the confusion! Those darn moggies... Tobie's and Harley's are slightly more green than Lacy's and Lucy's.
post #23 of 29
Thread Starter 
They would be considered as "hazel" eye color - mix of gold and green and a little brown sometimes
post #24 of 29
Der! Makes sense... What forum is this? Is it a genetics and coloring forum?
post #25 of 29
Thread Starter 
Welll colors and genetics are part of breeding
post #26 of 29
Of course... but I was serious, which forum is it? I probably won't post because I don't breed, but I would love to read what they have to say.
post #27 of 29
Thread Starter 
Its Breeders - but hey, I'm an ex-breeder - can still help in any breeding questions, genetics, etc. So feel free to post and ask questions.........
post #28 of 29
Mostly pedigree cats, breeding/showing. But there are members with moggies too.

Did GK send you the link yet?
post #29 of 29
Thread Starter 
Didn't have to send the link - just quoted part of the explanation for her
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