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Is this what we have to look forward to? - Page 2

post #31 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirinae View Post

And extremist Muslims may have the goal of bringing their faith to the entire world, but they haven't the means, any more than Christians in previous centuries had the means to bring their faith to the entire world (although they most certainly tried!). Or, really, you can insert pretty much any major religion (including some faiths no longer in practice) into this: most cultures have tried to force their beliefs onto the rest of the world in some form or another and have failed. If anything, I'd say Western culture has been the most successful at it (and not entirely through violent means, either -- non-violent means seem to work the best).

This is a totally different world than when the Christians tried to force people to Christianity, can't be compared IMO

As far as, "they haven't the means", well I don't know about that as we all depend on their oil, and it brings them gazillions of dollars. I think many of the terrorists and terrorist countries are very well financed.
post #32 of 42
Honor killings is not a Muslim thing - it tends to be a cultural thing especially when you consider that it is rare in Indonesia which is the most populous Muslim country. In India, they are known as dowry deaths and it is estimated that 5000 women are killed a year because their dowries are insufficient. In South America, they are known as crimes of passion. And not too long ago, a man could get away with killing his wife in the US because she cheated on him.

It is more important how we as a society respond to these acts. We should not let them get away with it. There should not be a lackadaisical "They have their ways and we have ours". We cannot have situations similar to where a judge in Germany denied a Moroccan woman a divorce based on the grounds that the Koran allows husbands to beat their wives. The judge implied that the woman should take the beatings because she got married in Morocco.

German judges have also accepted the defense of those who claim that killing the woman who has dishonored the family was an obligation imposed by morality, culture and tradition. They have imposed only reduced sentences, most often for manslaughter instead of premeditated murder. These traditions should not affect that a life was needlessly snuffed out.

We need to better integrate these immigrants into the mainstream and increase education and the situation of these women.
post #33 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
This is a totally different world than when the Christians tried to force people to Christianity, can't be compared IMO
Of course they can't be compared. That would negate your argument and force you to acknowledge that Islam isn't the only religion in the world that has perpetuated evil and committed atrocities.

And Bruce, to address what you said about there being no `other side' when it comes to violence against women, well, firstly, there is always another side, and secondly, I wasn't at any point in this thread diminishing violence against women or the horror of honour killings. Not at any point. But I'll refer you to an earlier post of mine which IS what my point in this thread is:

I did not deny that it is terrible or awful, or that it happens. I just pointed out that Muslims aren't the only people who kill members of their own family, in fact it happens all the time no matter what race, religion, creed or country you are from. I just don't know why it's so much more terrible when Muslims do it than when people of other cultures do.

This thread singles out Muslims as if they are the only people who do bad things to their own families and I find that objectionable. Particularly the title of the thread, when in actual fact, it’s not something to fear `looking forward to' at all, seeing as murder of their own family members in horrific ways by white, middle class Americans is already here and here to stay.
post #34 of 42
Thread Starter 
I don't have to be forced to admit that Kit. I know fully well what some people have done in the past in the name of Christianity, believe me I know and fully admit that. Where did I deny that? That was hundreds of years ago and I like to believe Christianity has progressed since then, in fact, I know it has. You won't see Christians forcing people to Christianity anymore and haven't for a long long time.
post #35 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by katachtig View Post
Honor killings is not a Muslim thing - it tends to be a cultural thing especially when you consider that it is rare in Indonesia which is the most populous Muslim country. In India, they are known as dowry deaths and it is estimated that 5000 women are killed a year because their dowries are insufficient. In South America, they are known as crimes of passion. And not too long ago, a man could get away with killing his wife in the US because she cheated on him.
Exactly, the Qur'an Never sanctions honour killings, although the bible permits death as punishment for adultery. A girl who was stoned to death in Iraq recently, came from a village who practised a mixture of islam, christianity and judaism, and was killed for marrying a muslim.
http://www.stophonourkillings.com/Ne.../sid=1744.html
post #36 of 42
Thread Starter 
That was the Old Testament. Jesus totally changed that.
post #37 of 42
But its still your holy book (part one) as the Qur'an is theirs. Fundamentalist christians can take a very literal view of the old testament, and some parts of it people still live their lives by it (the 10 comandments). The point being that overall the qur'an preaches no more violence than the bible.
post #38 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I don't have to be forced to admit that Kit. I know fully well what some people have done in the past in the name of Christianity, believe me I know and fully admit that. Where did I deny that? That was hundreds of years ago and I like to believe Christianity has progressed since then, in fact, I know it has. You won't see Christians forcing people to Christianity anymore and haven't for a long long time.
Sorry, but this is incorrect. What about residential schools? The atrocities, cruelty, beatings and abuse perpetrated by the members of the Christian church upon aboriginals in residential schools...where natives were beaten severely and humiliated for speaking their own language or following their own religion? These people were abused for not reading the bible and were taken from their families....
This was only 50 years ago, not hundreds....These people are still alive to tell the tales...
Cruelty and atrocity is alive and well in Christianity and this is evident in the broken surivors of these horrible crimes...
post #39 of 42
Thread Starter 
I have no idea what you are talking about. What "residential schools" and where?
post #40 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I have no idea what you are talking about. What "residential schools" and where?
In brief, in the 1950's and previously, the church rounded up children on Canadian reserves, and decided to acclimate them to a christian way of life...Children were taken from their families and put into "christian" foster homes, and made to attend school where only christian values were taught. They were not allowed to see their parents, speak their language or speak of their religion or beliefs.. Most were beaten, and/or sexually abused and/or murdered on the route to "taming the savages".
You could google residential/christian/aboriginal and come up with many sites (like below)...

http://www.anglican.ca/Residental-Schools/index.htm

http://www.hiddenfromhistory.org/
post #41 of 42
Thread Starter 
That is horrendous. I'm shocked that something like that has happened in my lifetime, especially in Canada.
post #42 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
That is horrendous. I'm shocked that something like that has happened in my lifetime, especially in Canada.
I know -- it's a truly sad and horrifying part of my country's history. Even though we studied it in school and I've met people who were subjected to these terrible residential schools, I still have a hard time believing that it actually happened here. *shudder*
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