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Cindy Sheehan walking away - Page 2

post #31 of 46
Casey Sheehan, and anyone else choosing to go to Iraq, are very honorable, brave people. I know I couldn't go to a war voluntarily. I don't think his reenlistment necessarily implies agreement with the war on principle though. He wanted to rescue American troops from whatever they were in, and maybe he did believe in the war, maybe he didn't.

But- that doesn't change underlying facts about the Iraq war, which I believe was mainly Cindy's point. Not that her son's bravery was meaningless, or his life, or the military, but that the war in Iraq seems to have no reason. He died in a reason-less war. Harsh words, yes, to say her son died for nothing and I've said before I hope no miltary families or people in the military believe that they are fighting/dying for nothing. But the Iraq war is for nothing-- two separate things. It is irresponsible to ask people willing to die for their country to go to a war against a people who did not attack us and who we are not defending.
post #32 of 46
I think the facts that V posted about Casey Sheehan speak for themselves, no need to try to spin them into something different. He re-enlisted KNOWING he would be deployed to Iraq. If he would have been so anti-war he would not have done that. I know it is hard for some to admit he went willingly, but he did and no one can change that.

And Cindy Sheehan's words speak for themselves also, "My son died for nothing"

Why do people always try to spin it to, "Well, what he/she REALLY meant was......" Just like Rosie did.
post #33 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I think the facts that V posted about Casey Sheehan speak for themselves, no need to try to spin them into something different. He re-enlisted KNOWING he would be deployed to Iraq. If he would have been so anti-war he would not have done that. I know it is hard for some to admit he went willingly, but he did and no one can change that.

And Cindy Sheehan's words speak for themselves also, "My son died for nothing"

Why do people always try to spin it to, "Well, what he/she REALLY meant was......" Just like Rosie did.
I'm not sure how saying his re-enlistment doesn't imply de facto agreement with the principles of the war he was going to is 'spin', but then you're used to Fox News. I said 'maybe he believed in the war, maybe he didn't', in case you selectively read my post. Putting words in my mouth doesn't change what I actually said.
post #34 of 46
I think it's disgusting that anyone is judging her at all. It was HER son that died - I think she knew him better than anyone here did, despite quoting whatever facts you like. She's the one who spoke to him, she's the one who mothered him, and she's the one who's mourning him. It's none of anyone else's business and to actually judge her? Who on earth do people think they are?
post #35 of 46
I'm not judging her, I'm no judge. But I can have my opinion, that is what IMO is for.
And Cindy Sheehan saying, "my son died for nothing" is HER opinion.

There is a Bible verse that I think is very appropriate to this situation, it goes something like this: "No greater love hath a man than to give his life for another."
Knowing now the mission he volunteered for I think that is very applicable here. Casey Sheehan was a true hero and lived the meaning of true brotherhood.

Cindy Sheehan never once said (that I know of) that her son was forced to do anything. He did what he did willingly.
post #36 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
WOW, I did not know the details about her son. I am speechless. Knowing this, I just can not BELIEVE she said he died for nothing. Yes, I agree, she is dishonoring her own son. I like her even less now. That is just wrong.
This isn't judging her?
post #37 of 46
No, it isn't, it is my opinion of her words. I have no idea what is really in her heart.
post #38 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
Who on earth do people think they are?
I'm a free thinking person enjoying the freedom of speech. If I can't "judge" or disagree with her and her motives, then you can't "judge" or disagree with Bush, or the group that protests military (or any) funerals. SHE put herself in the spotlight. SHE put herself and her politics in the public domain.

I'm not judging HER, personally - that is not my place. I AM disagreeing with her public persona and public statements.

I recall seeing some quotes from other members of her and Casey's family (I believe it was one of his sisters) who said that Casey would have disagreed with her protests in his name, that he loved the Army and believed in what he was doing.

I am very sorry for her as a person. To lose a child, no matter if they are 4, 24, or 64 is horrible. But HE chose to reinlist. He chose to knowing where he was going to be sent. He was 24 years old, not a baby, not some uninformed teen. She may believe that he died for nothing, and whether or not he believed in the war itself and Bush's motives, the fact that he voluntarily reinlisted KNOWING HE WAS GOING TO WAR tells me that he died for something that he believed in.
post #39 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
WOW, I did not know the details about her son. I am speechless. Knowing this, I just can not BELIEVE she said he died for nothing. Yes, I agree, she is dishonoring her own son. I like her even less now. That is just wrong.
Hmm. And this is not a judgement? `I like her even less now'. Right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
No, it isn't, it is my opinion of her words. I have no idea what is really in her heart.
But you like her even less now for something that she said that is one sentence probably taken out of context of everything else she said surrounding it. And it's not your opinion `of her words'. It's your opinion of HER. You said it straight out `I like her even less now'. And if that's not judgement, then I don't know what else the definition is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post
I'm a free thinking person enjoying the freedom of speech. If I can't "judge" or disagree with her and her motives, then you can't "judge" or disagree with Bush
I certainly can judge Bush and his politics because what he does affects my life, and the world as we know it today. He has put himself out into public view as a politician and as a world leader, and therefore opens himself up to judgement every minute of every day.

In terms of Cindy Sheehan, sure, she also put herself out there and some may think that makes her eligible for judgement. And her actions as a public figure are open to judgement and scrutiny. But to make claims about how much you `like' her and what you think of her as a person based on one sentence out of years of protesting, when again, it was her son she was referring to and, again, I think she knows him and what his views were better than anyone else here, then that is just wrong. And sure, that might just be my opinion and everyone here is entitled to disagree with me, but it is also my opinion that that poor woman and her family have been through enough without people who know nothing at all about them crucifying her as well.

Now, can anyone here tell me what Casey Sheehan's death achieved? Then we can make a `judgement' about what he died for.
post #40 of 46
There are many people I don't like very well. Not liking someone does not equate judging them to me.

My mother always told me that, "actions speak louder than words". Casey Sheehan's actions spoke volumes although some don't agree.

And what V posted said what he died for. On a rescue mission to rescue a brother in the military. Because he got killed while doing it, does that invalidate what he was trying to do? He was doing a terribly brave and noble thing I believe, to bad his own mother cannot see that.

And, as far as taking her words out of context, I don't believe that for one second. She was making her farewell statement, she knew EXACTLY what she was saying. Why does it always come down to; "well that isn't what she/he really MEANT, it was just taken out of context." That lame excuse gets old after awhile.
post #41 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
I certainly can judge Bush and his politics because what he does affects my life, and the world as we know it today. He has put himself out into public view as a politician and as a world leader, and therefore opens himself up to judgement every minute of every day.

In terms of Cindy Sheehan, sure, she also put herself out there and some may think that makes her eligible for judgement. And her actions as a public figure are open to judgement and scrutiny. But to make claims about how much you `like' her and what you think of her as a person based on one sentence out of years of protesting, when again, it was her son she was referring to and, again, I think she knows him and what his views were better than anyone else here, then that is just wrong. And sure, that might just be my opinion and everyone here is entitled to disagree with me, but it is also my opinion that that poor woman and her family have been through enough without people who know nothing at all about them crucifying her as well.
I've seen it posted more times than I can count on here, "I truly despise Bush", "I hate Bush", "I can't stand that man."

So, it's OK to hate him even though you don't know him personally, you don't know anything about what leads up to a decision except what is said in public, you don't know what really makes him tick except what is reported? But, it's not OK for Cindy (or I) to say "I don't like her" based on two years of statements and actions, not just one sentence. Just summed up with her one sentence. Uh huh. BTW, I don't equate "I don't like her" with crucifixion. Not by a long shot. Oh, and her family has pretty well distanced themselves from her public persona, which is the only one I can speak to as that's the only one I know.

There are many many many families who have lost someone they love in military action around the world (not just in Iraq) who are choosing NOT to grieve in public in the manner she is doing it. And there are many many many MANY families who have family members and friends and those they love serving in the military. While she may not have gotten her way with policy (which usually doesn't happen in 2 years), what she has done and said does affect all of those mentioned in this paragraph as well as those who are serving in the military currently. Maybe it doesn't affect YOU, maybe you just plain agree with her so you don't think it's fair to criticize her, but she did affect many people. And yes, knowing quite a few people who are currently serving in the military and who have in the past, her words and actions have affected me as well. If that's your criteria (" I certainly can judge Bush and his politics because what he does affects my life"), then I have as much right as anyone to criticise what Cindy Sheehan has said and done in the public and media arena.
post #42 of 46
hmm what comes to mind about Cindy Sheehan,
miss guided, clueless, etc.
post #43 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
There are many people I don't like very well. Not liking someone does not equate judging them to me.
Then how do you decide whether or not you like them? Upon what do you base your opinion, if not judging their words/actions and deciding from that?

Quote:
And, as far as taking her words out of context, I don't believe that for one second. She was making her farewell statement, she knew EXACTLY what she was saying. Why does it always come down to; "well that isn't what she/he really MEANT, it was just taken out of context." That lame excuse gets old after awhile.
That, actually, is something I do agree with. Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post
I've seen it posted more times than I can count on here, "I truly despise Bush", "I hate Bush", "I can't stand that man."
Yes, because he has a global influence. His actions impact on the world, and literally millions of people. He has been around for a lot longer than two years, and much more in the public eye. Much more is known about him personally, and his views and opinions are regularly made known to people around the world.

Quote:
So, it's OK to hate him even though you don't know him personally, you don't know anything about what leads up to a decision except what is said in public, you don't know what really makes him tick except what is reported? But, it's not OK for Cindy (or I) to say "I don't like her" based on two years of statements and actions, not just one sentence.
And if you read what Cindy said, it looked exactly like she made that statement based upon something she had just learned.

While I do agree with what you've said in principle, and I do agree that by my own admission you shouldn't judge or dislike someone if you don't know them, I have to qualify by saying that politicians of the status of Bush, a world leader, put themselves out there to the point that it is possible to make a judgement on them based on their public persona. And decisions that Bush has made - HIS decisions not those of his parliament - are the reasons for my intense dislike of him, because I think they speak for his character, too.

Quote:
There are many many many families who have lost someone they love in military action around the world (not just in Iraq) who are choosing NOT to grieve in public in the manner she is doing it. And there are many many many MANY families who have family members and friends and those they love serving in the military. While she may not have gotten her way with policy (which usually doesn't happen in 2 years), what she has done and said does affect all of those mentioned in this paragraph as well as those who are serving in the military currently. Maybe it doesn't affect YOU, maybe you just plain agree with her so you don't think it's fair to criticize her, but she did affect many people. And yes, knowing quite a few people who are currently serving in the military and who have in the past, her words and actions have affected me as well. If that's your criteria (" I certainly can judge Bush and his politics because what he does affects my life"), then I have as much right as anyone to criticise what Cindy Sheehan has said and done in the public and media arena.
If you feel that her words and actions have affected your life and the world then yes, fair enough. I don't put her on the same international influential level as Bush, but if you do, then that's your prerogative.

I always feel that if people should try to picture themselves in the same position as someone before they pass judgement. I have done this many times with Bush, and feel that I most certainly would do just about everything differently, even taking into consideration all of his pressures and circumstances. Perhaps you feel that way about Cindy Sheehan too, which is your right.

My thoughts on her is that she was so outraged by everything about this war and her son losing his life in something that has been such a travesty, that she decided to do something about it. I think that grief may have pushed her to behave in ways that some view as extreme. I think her motivations were pure, and I think she was trying to do some good in the world. I think that it is perfectly reasonable to say her son died for nothing. She was not crticising or diminishing him by saying so. She was pronouncing an indictment on the war - not her son or other troops. When I asked what he achieved by dying, I meant exactly that. What did his death ACHIEVE? Not `what did he go there for?', which was the answer I got.

If it were my son, and he died in a situation such as this, I would be outraged and furious too, and I would also consider his life to have been given in vain. That boy had more than 50 more years to live. His mission may have been worthy, and I'm not disputing that, but I'd like to know what was achieved from that mission and what he died for - not what he went for.
post #44 of 46
Now, I'm going to add an `adendum' to my last post to say I think in hindsight and with an overview of everything I said, that I think I am in the wrong. This forum is pretty much designed to discuss people and their actions, and I have been guilty many times of judging and accusing people I don't know. I always try to do so with the maximum amount of information available, but regardless, I still do it, and therefore I shouldn't be telling others that if they do it too, that they're wrong. Sorry about that
post #45 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
And, as far as taking her words out of context, I don't believe that for one second. She was making her farewell statement, she knew EXACTLY what she was saying. Why does it always come down to; "well that isn't what she/he really MEANT, it was just taken out of context." That lame excuse gets old after awhile.
It would be a lame excuse if that is what I had said, and you didn't misinterpret what she said.
post #46 of 46
I feel she dishonored her son and his memory by saying, "my son died for nothing". IMO, she dishonored what his life was about and what he felt was important and what he died for. I don't believe that was right.
I think she should give him credit for being the hero he was.
Take away all her disagreements with the War, it still leaves the fact that he died trying to save a brother in arms. How is THAT for nothing?
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