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post #121 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
I'm going to guess by the way the older kids talk and the way the family is structured that the girls will not be going anywhere until their wedding day. They've said as much. From the division of labor in the household, I don't think they're about to go to college and get a job. If I do have any problems with their family, it's that the children are cookie cutters of their parents and their rigid gender-divided roles. Meaning, the girls will all be stay at home moms. I have no problem with women who choose to do so, it's more work than I could handle right now, but these girls haven't really had much choice in the matter having been homeschooled and having no financial support to go to any kind of secondary school... They don't seem to mind much though...
You might not mind either, if you didn't know any better. I mean, if that was all you knew, what would you complain about? If you have something to compare it to, then you might figure out it ain't all that. If these kids are homeschooled, then they might not be exposed to the things other teenagers of their age are doing, such as getting ready for college, etc. I am not sure how much of the outside world these teenagers even have access to.
post #122 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by cococat View Post
My grandmother came from a family of 19. She loved it and recalls fond memories of her childhood, she was the youngest. It wasn't seen as unnatural or sick by society at that time.

She had a large family too, all boys. Family gatherings are always fun. Those that come from small families don't understand the dynamics that come with large families.

I couldn't care less about the Duggar's. The only thing that bothers me about them is making their girl children wear skirts. I don't agree or like that sexist attitude at all.

But they aren't stupid/bad people and aren't harming anyone or forcing their children to be slaves or anything. They are happy about their family and seem very family oriented and loving. Set 60 years ago or so, they would have been around normal as far as family size goes. People wouldn’t have hated them for wanting many children.

I find it annoying that all these people think they are horrible and pass these heavy unrealistic judgments over something they have no experience with, simply since they are giving birth to a large family and learning at the same time how to make it work for them. What number is acceptable to everyone? 2, 3, 4, 5, how about one child per household, like China? Or I have seen some people even say no children at all, they should adopt if they want a family at all.
You have a problem with girls having to wear a skirt? What about these girls getting an eduction, going to college, and having a profession? What are the avenues open to these young females, or is their future only to be like their mother, such as getting married and keep on having one child after another?
post #123 of 141
We can't assume too much about what they would choose or not... their lifestyle is somewhat comparable to Amish people (somewhat, only, of course) and teenagers often choose to stay Amish after their Rumschpringa. True, if they don't they might never speak to their family and friends again, but they certainly have a choice and are exposed to more mainstream culture.

Just as many people raised in our mainstream culture (public school and all) choose to become more like the Duggars.

I just wish they were given some kind of choice in the matter but they aren't the only parents in America basically forcing their children to be like them.
post #124 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
We can't assume too much about what they would choose or not... their lifestyle is somewhat comparable to Amish people (somewhat, only, of course) and teenagers often choose to stay Amish after their Rumschpringa. True, if they don't they might never speak to their family and friends again, but they certainly have a choice and are exposed to more mainstream culture.

Just as many people raised in our mainstream culture (public school and all) choose to become more like the Duggars.

I just wish they were given some kind of choice in the matter but they aren't the only parents in America basically forcing their children to be like them.
It's now to the point that some of the children are becoming young adults. Did the parents prepare them for the life outside of the home? And seriously, how many people exposed to mainstream culture are choosing to become like Duggars? I certainly don't know any. I mean, to me, having 17 children by itself is too much. If some person kept adding cats and was at 17 and wanted more, this might be a concern, as this person might not be able to care for all these cats. At least with cats, all you need is to be able to feed them and provide medical care for them. You don't have to worry about sending cats off to college, cats being able to make it on their own, hold down a job and raise their own family (LOL). As for 17 chilren-it's not just having the children and being able to provide for them (feeding and clothes) as some here suggesting. What about the future of these children? What are these children going to do with their lives? It certainly does not appear to me Duggars are thinking about sending the girls off to college.
post #125 of 141
I just stopped in to see if baby #18 was on the way yet. It's been a few weeks since #17 was born, so it shouldn't be much longer before they announce #18.
post #126 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natalie_ca View Post
I just stopped in to see if baby #18 was on the way yet. It's been a few weeks since #17 was born, so it shouldn't be much longer before they announce #18.
when I saw this thread bump up, for an instant I thought that's what was happening
post #127 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockcat View Post
I don't think its so much that they wanted 17 kids. I think its more that they don't believe in birth control for religious reasons. They appear to love their children and provide for them (whether or not they get outside help). I'm not going to fault them for following their own religious convictions. So many threads on this board have people complaining about being judged and discriminated against because of their religious beliefs or lack therof. Why are we judging the Duggars for the same thing?

I understand that this is IMO - and thats all we are doing is expressing our opinions. I just think that some of us are making unfair assumptions.
I don't think their religion forbids them from using birth control. Their own website says the woman was taking birth control for years after they got married before she had her first child. According to their website, after the first child she started taking birth control again but got pregnant and had a miscarriage, and that is when she stopped using it. Well, the mother taking birth control isn't the only way to prevent pregnancy. According to their website, they want as many children as god gives them. So, it looks to me that they are making a concsious choice to have all these children.
post #128 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenniferd View Post
What about the future of these children? What are these children going to do with their lives? It certainly does not appear to me Duggars are thinking about sending the girls off to college.
I haven't really watched the show, I saw part of a couple. Their house is really large and nice, the kids aren't crammed in there, which is better than some families crammed into tiny apartments. Their family seemed to be enjoying each other, which was nice to see. They looked well taken care of overall. They seemed more loving and supporting than some families that I have known that only had one kid, the parents way more involved/interested in their children's lives. They took vacations on one show I watched; some people with only one kid never even take that one on vacations or get interested in their lives. I don't always believe family size automatically dedicates parenting ability in and of itself.

About them paying for college… many of the students in college today pay/paid their own way if they choose/chose to go, get out a loan, and so forth, this is considered typical. Their parents didn't give them a free ride. I do hope their female children (and male for that matter) get a chance to go to college and have the ambition and desire to complete their chosen degree programs. I hope the females are given as much access as the males to college.
Personally, I hope they all attend and complete college.

I did see in one show that the kids said what they wanted to be when they grew up, I remember noting they said doctors, a vet, teachers, some wanted to go into evangelism, I can’t really remember.

I do think they are sexist, but I think that mainstream American culture is too, as is their religion. There are other things I don’t agree with, like naming them all “J” names, that gets on my nerves, and there are other things I really don’t agree with. But I can’t say they "bad" or irresponsible for having/wanting a large family. It is not something I am at all interested in doing personally nor can I even imagine that path for my life.
Also, I know some couples can't handle one child for a couple hours to baby-sit; some people have many children and don’t do a good job at all, some families have one child and do a horrible job as a parent, some people can handle several just fine and do really well raising their children. Some couples that are perfectly healthy choose to remain childless for their lives, and get bad comments from society as well for their decision not to have children. I say everyone is different, every situation is different, every family dynamic is different.

I think many more factors are at play for the people who hate them, perhaps they don't think anyone anywhere should have more than "x" number of biological children on purpose (or some might even say by accident), or if they want children they should only adopt children, etc. Makes me wonder if they showed this same family raising that many adopted kids how much they would probably be praised. Life is very subjective. And standards change, large families were considered okay many years ago, now they are very controversial, and so forth.
post #129 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natalie_ca View Post
I just stopped in to see if baby #18 was on the way yet. It's been a few weeks since #17 was born, so it shouldn't be much longer before they announce #18.
I thought so too.....
post #130 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by cococat View Post
About them paying for college… many of the students in college today pay/paid their own way if they choose/chose to go, get out a loan, and so forth, this is considered typical. Their parents didn't give them a free ride. I do hope their female children (and male for that matter) get a chance to go to college and have the ambition and desire to complete their chosen degree programs. I hope the females are given as much access as the males to college.
Personally, I hope they all attend and complete college.
As someone currently paying their own way through in-state tuition... first of all, if their parents don't want them to go, it's probably not going to happen without some serious scholarships, which they're not gonna get because they're homeschooled. Your parents at the very least have to sign your fafsa if you're gonna get any financial aid, including loans. Or you can wait til you're 23, married, or have a child... If they won't do that, you have to get private loans. Without good credit, you're not getting those without a cosigner.

In their situation, it might be completely impossible to go off to college. Take classes at community college and work your way up from there, while working full time... maybe.

It is impossible to work your way through school without some sort of support if you want to be a full time student right out of high school / turning 18. Unless you manage to have a great job for some reason that is willing to pay your tuition-- unlikely for them, as they've never worked outside the home-- or join the military, it ain't happening.

The 'expected' annual cost of attendance at my school is more than 30,000 dollars a year, without going summer quarter... working full time at 8$ an hour (which is actually unrealistically high) you would make 16,000 a year before taxes. And your grades would suffer because you don't have time for your homework (trust me... I've tried).
post #131 of 141
I remember this thread this morning when I read the news that Josh and Ann Duggar, the oldest son and his bride are now expecting their first child.

Since this thread was started the name of the show has change from 17 and counting to 18 and counting.
When I first heard about the Dugger family I sort of scratched my head and said well to each their own, this was way back when they only had 14 children.

However I am now starting to wonder whether since mom Michelle is now getting to the age were a baby a year is soon going to be impossible they have to decided to branch out with the next generation....

Now it starting to have a publicity stunt feel to it..I.M.O.
post #132 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
I'm going to elaborate on something I said in an earlier post - and start off by saying I know I'm being unreasonable, but I can't shake this feeling.

I said it seems, well, greedy somehow to be doing this. But I don't know if that was the right word. It's just a form of excess, and extreme excess is ugly to me, and to many people.

Like someone who has 10 cars or 250 pairs of shoes or eats five courses for every meal or has 30 tennis racquets or 4000 DVDs or a TV in every room - ahh, it's hard to explain. I just think that over-indulgence and overconsumption and, well, just pure excess, is somewhat repellant. It's materialistic and well, yeah, kind of greedy. If it wasn't kids it would be called extreme consumerism!

When there is no good reason to have vastly more than a reasonable number of something it is just ugly to me. I already know not everyone feels that way but it's just how I feel. Each to their own, and this family is exonerated somewhat in that they don't live off thousands of welfare handouts, but, still, it's overkill IMO.


It seems entirely possible to me that the mom & dad may also suffer from some kind of obsessive/compulsive behavior disorder.
post #133 of 141
<And it seems the kids really like the life they live.>
They may indeed enjoy that life, only keep in mind, that is the life they've grown up with, so I believe they might not know any different.
post #134 of 141
17 children. Huh.

So, if these parents aren't allowed to be judged on principle, then that means what they're doing is (potentially) okay for anyone/everyone to do. It's not like they just get a free pass for being the first to do it, eh? So, what if...

Ah hell, I'll let someone else say it for me; I tend to get myself in trouble when I ramble.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Population growth drives depletion of natural resources

By Tony Fitzpatrick

Quote:
It's a 500-pound gorilla that Robert Criss, Ph.D., professor of earth and planetary sciences in Arts & Sciences, sees standing on the speaker's dais at political rallies, debates and campaigns. Its name is population growth.
"Population growth is driving all of our resource problems, including water and energy," Criss said. "The three are intertwined. The United States has over 305 million people of the 6.7 billion on the planet. We are dividing a finite resource pie among a growing number of people on Earth. We cannot expect to sustain exponential population growth matched by increased per capita use of water and energy. It's troubling.

"But politicians and religious leaders totally ignore the topic," he said.
post #135 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loubelia View Post
<And it seems the kids really like the life they live.>
They may indeed enjoy that life, only keep in mind, that is the life they've grown up with, so I believe they might not know any different.
Yep and that is the same with all of us, isn't it?
post #136 of 141
I don't mean to be gross here, but one would think that after having 17 kids, that woman's insides would be falling out by now.
post #137 of 141
[andrewdiceclay] "There was an old woman who lived in a shoe; she had so many freakin' kids, her uterus fell out! Aaayy!" [/andrewdiceclay]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I don't mean to be gross here, but one would think that after having 17 kids, that woman's insides would be falling out by now.
post #138 of 141
I thought they had 18 now with a first grandchild on the way!
post #139 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loubelia View Post
<And it seems the kids really like the life they live.>
They may indeed enjoy that life, only keep in mind, that is the life they've grown up with, so I believe they might not know any different.
None of us know anything different from what we're raised with until we get old enough to have more experiences. Those kids are no different from other kids. At least their parents are teaching them to be decent human beings instead of criminals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty's Mom View Post
I thought they had 18 now with a first grandchild on the way!
Yep! They do. I think this particular thread was started a long time ago.
post #140 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keycube View Post
17 children. Huh.

So, if these parents aren't allowed to be judged on principle, then that means what they're doing is (potentially) okay for anyone/everyone to do. It's not like they just get a free pass for being the first to do it, eh? So, what if...

Ah hell, I'll let someone else say it for me; I tend to get myself in trouble when I ramble.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Population growth drives depletion of natural resources

By Tony Fitzpatrick
Many many years ago when I was a teenager, I realized that it's up to us all to practice population control, and it's totally selfish and irresponsible to have that many children. Of course, it's not politically correct to say that, but it's how I felt those several decades ago and it's how I feel now even stronger. Do I have kids? No. I have cats instead.
post #141 of 141
The issue I have with them is that the kids basically take care of each other. There is NO WAY a mother or father can give 17 kids individual attention. I mean... even to just spend an hour a day with each would take up 17 hours! I think it's important that siblings bond and take care of each other but the older kids pretty much have to help out with the younger kids all the time.

This is kind of like the whole "can you have too many pets?" question. Yes you can if you have so many you can't devote enough time and energy into them. I'm sure the kids love having to share time with their parents, love not having their own rooms, love having to deal with all of their siblings. I for one would not enjoy dealing with 16 other siblings. No thanks.

I'm not saying they are bad people, or bad parents, I think they do well by their kids for the most part. However, I really don't think things are as good as they appear on tv.
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