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Bootlegged movies - Page 2

post #31 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by clixpix View Post
So because they sued one of your friends, that justifies it?
That is not even remotely what I said. My point was that they don't just try to give you a fine (and what they sue for is wayyy more than a fine), and make you take it off your computer. They go nuts. Oh, and I said classmate, not friend, i did not know this person.

Nobody is talking about taking art and plagiarising it or making copies of a picture. That's completely different. Stop taking the subject so personally for a minute and think about what is actually downloaded or fileshared. They are almost always big-budget movies and big-label music.

And I said I don't personally do it, I just don't care if other people do.
post #32 of 46
One thing I have wondered about...

What about copying TV shows & movies off of TV? That's been going on for as long as there have been VCRs, and now that the studios are releasing them onto DVD, isn't it the same argument? Or watching pre-recorded network shows and skipping the commercials?
post #33 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
Nobody is talking about taking art and plagiarising it or making copies of a picture. That's completely different. Stop taking the subject so personally for a minute and think about what is actually downloaded or fileshared. They are almost always big-budget movies and big-label music.
(Hopefully not misconstruing your point here ...) I think the point is, regardless of whether it's an independent label or a big budget movie, it's still stealing. People are losing money through this theft. The amount of money they make or lose is irrelevant -- why is it acceptable to steal from mega-corporation but not from the little guy? Because we empathize with the little guy and despise the mega-corp? Theft is theft. People put time and effort and money into making movies, music and other forms of art, whether they're making high art that will be passed on for generations or an absolute piece of crap you wouldn't subject your worst enemy to.

And it's hard not to personalize it, because a number of us are artists who suffer through these thefts. I have friends who are struggling actors. I'm an author. Other friends write modules for gaming companies (big, mega corporations who make a lot of money, but the writers don't and thus miss out when people steal the "mods"). I know painters, sketch artists, stand-up comics, musicians ... All of us suffer when our material is stolen from us. It's not just a question of monetary value. My words are my children. My novels are my babies. When you steal them -- however well-meaning you might be, just because you enjoy my work and otherwise would have had no intention of purchasing it to begin with -- you aren't just taking something of monetary value to me. You're taking something that cost me personal effort, blood, sweat, tears (sometimes literally) ... Just because a big corporation might be backing it, doesn't mean there aren't little people to whom the theft cuts very, very deeply.
post #34 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooficat View Post
The only thing that bothers me about buying ripped CD/DVDs is that is supports the drug/crime business
Huh? How so?


As far as me?
post #35 of 46
I'm too lazy to bootleg, and too cheap to buy bootleg from anyone else. So, I just get movies from Netflix
post #36 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post
One thing I have wondered about...

What about copying TV shows & movies off of TV? That's been going on for as long as there have been VCRs, and now that the studios are releasing them onto DVD, isn't it the same argument? Or watching pre-recorded network shows and skipping the commercials?

there has been talk of how to make tapes and dvd last only a short period of time. Also DVD that after being viewed X number of times, will stop working.
If i remember right, there was a case a few monthes back where people from one cable company where complaining that they where unable to FF past the commercials on there DVR, (sorry just woke up, not thinking well)
post #37 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirinae View Post
(Hopefully not misconstruing your point here ...) I think the point is, regardless of whether it's an independent label or a big budget movie, it's still stealing. People are losing money through this theft. The amount of money they make or lose is irrelevant -- why is it acceptable to steal from mega-corporation but not from the little guy? Because we empathize with the little guy and despise the mega-corp? Theft is theft. People put time and effort and money into making movies, music and other forms of art, whether they're making high art that will be passed on for generations or an absolute piece of crap you wouldn't subject your worst enemy to.

And it's hard not to personalize it, because a number of us are artists who suffer through these thefts. I have friends who are struggling actors. I'm an author. Other friends write modules for gaming companies (big, mega corporations who make a lot of money, but the writers don't and thus miss out when people steal the "mods"). I know painters, sketch artists, stand-up comics, musicians ... All of us suffer when our material is stolen from us. It's not just a question of monetary value. My words are my children. My novels are my babies. When you steal them -- however well-meaning you might be, just because you enjoy my work and otherwise would have had no intention of purchasing it to begin with -- you aren't just taking something of monetary value to me. You're taking something that cost me personal effort, blood, sweat, tears (sometimes literally) ... Just because a big corporation might be backing it, doesn't mean there aren't little people to whom the theft cuts very, very deeply.
But we aren't talking about intellectual theft, we're talking about people passing around copies of stuff without making money off it.

All too often I feel like I'm being guilted into paying too much for cds/dvds because of this argument about piracy. It's been around since art has.

If someone looks at a picture without buying it, is that theft? It seems like the only difference between enjoying something and stealing it is that is you keep it around to enjoy it again, it's stealing. If you don't, it's fine.
post #38 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leli View Post
Actually, I do something kind of similar......I download Grey's Anatomy as it airs throughout the season. I'm kind of an addict. I don't make copies for friends or sell it.
I have with a couple of tv shows in the past too, though be it they were not released in North America, were not in english, and the dvd releases in their original country did not have english subtitles - the subs were fan made. Which is really sort of a grey area as no one is making money and it's not licensed(outside original country).

If I like music and movies I buy them. Provided that usually I just prefer to wait for movies to come on the movie channels we're paying for already.

As for cds and dvds costing too much, no one in the the US (don't know Canada's prices) has a right to complain. $10 cds and $13-15 dvds, we have it made. Look at other countries, the UK for example, it's more like $22-30 a cd.
post #39 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
But we aren't talking about intellectual theft, we're talking about people passing around copies of stuff without making money off it.
We're talking about illegal bootleg copies of movies and music, which people do profit from -- and not the people who made them. Or at least that's what I thought this topic was about, so that's what I'm talking about ...

If I buy a legal copy of a movie, I feel that I can lend that movie to friends to watch, but I don't believe that my friends can then go ahead and make a copy of my DVD. They should buy their own damn copies, just like I did. I paid for it; my lending it to my friends is no different than me inviting them all to come to my house and watch it with me. If I charged them admission to see the movie, that would be wrong -- I'd be profiting from the movie I bought. Lending the movie, I don't profit because I don't charge my friends a lending fee. (Stores like Blockbuster and Rogers Video pay for the right to rent out movies; that is different.) I'm like a library: the library doesn't charge you a fee to borrow their books and movies, but they've legally paid for the copies they have (or had them donated to them); if they were to start charging for their movies and books, they would have to pay the movie companies and publishers for the rights to do so.

The people who make bootleg copies of movies profit from them and do not turn over a portion of their profits to the production companies who made the movies in the first place. If you go into a theatre and record the movie on your camcorder, you are stealing. You had paid for the right to watch the movie; you had not paid for the right to copy that movie and share it with others (whether you profit from it or not).

I don't really get where the confusion comes from. Stealing is stealing. It seems very simple to me.
post #40 of 46
That's such a great post, Mirinae. It covers every single viable ethical issue regarding this subject.

And yet, still - you know, stealing is stealing, but somehow (and I don't know why) it just doesn't seem as bad this way. Is it because there are faceless victims to whom we will never pay an ounce of attention? Could be...just like smoking. We know it kills, but it kills slowly and only `maybe'. So we keep smoking. Maybe, we never see the people we hurt by doing this so for some reason it seems ok? Like ripping off Sony is nowhere near as bad as ripping off the beggar down the street. It isn't as bad, materially - but is it as bad morally? Probably, and yet.....
post #41 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
That's such a great post, Mirinae. It covers every single viable ethical issue regarding this subject.

And yet, still - you know, stealing is stealing, but somehow (and I don't know why) it just doesn't seem as bad this way. Is it because there are faceless victims to whom we will never pay an ounce of attention? Could be...just like smoking. We know it kills, but it kills slowly and only `maybe'. So we keep smoking. Maybe, we never see the people we hurt by doing this so for some reason it seems ok? Like ripping off Sony is nowhere near as bad as ripping off the beggar down the street. It isn't as bad, materially - but is it as bad morally? Probably, and yet.....
Thanks!

I think part of the reason it's so easy to steal in this fashion is that we feel like we're being ripped off by Hollywood. It costs $19.50 for J and I to see a movie together, and that's not including junk food (which would be another twenty bucks, if we both got something). Most of the movies being churned out today are pure crap. Actors get paid in the tens and hundreds of thousands, production companies make millions, and most of it isn't worth the price of admission (or the price of the rental). Every day on the news there's another crazy story about some dumb stunt a celebrity has pulled -- driving under the influence, beating up their assistant, spouting off racial slurs -- so we don't feel any compulsion to support or reward their behaviour and it's hard to take them seriously. It's not just that we're stealing from faceless corporations, it's that we feel like we're being stolen from first, so it's just a case of tit for tat. There's even a director who deliberately makes craptastic movies because the German government (I think it's the government) has a program in place to help film investors "recoup" their losses, so it's more profitable to make a flop than to make a box office hit (the director's name is Uwe Boll, for those who are interested). So, it's easy to say that it's okay to steal from these people, because some of them deserve it.

So, I understand why people might feel justified in buying illegal copies of movies. You do get ripped off at the theatre. Hollywood is selling you crap. I understand, but that doesn't make it the right thing to do. As someone else pointed out, you're being ripped off by the oil companies. Why not steal from them? Or from grocery stores, for that matter? Or clothing companies? Everything costs too much, and most of it isn't nearly worth the price you're paying for it. That doesn't justify you becoming a thief yourself.

Or maybe it does. I don't know. Go nuts, steal whatever you like. But where do you draw the line? It's okay to steal from faceless corporations, but not independent companies? Or you can steal from strangers, but not friends or family? Or it's okay to steal movies and music, but not food or clothing or medicine (even though you actually need food, clothing [okay, that's debatable ...] and medicine)? Or maybe it's okay because it's just light and sound waves, and not something more tangible? I guess I don't really understand how we can justify this one kind of theft, but not any other.

I think too much about this stuff. I really do. I need a hobby.
post #42 of 46
What about the people who come into my work every day and read entire books without buying them? Should I call the cops and say they're shoplifting?
post #43 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
What about the people who come into my work every day and read entire books without buying them? Should I call the cops and say they're shoplifting?
It would only be considered shoplifting if they actually removed the books from the store. I'm not sure what it's considered if they read the books in the store without purchasing them ... loitering? And for the record, I'm not okay with customers doing that, either -- reading books in a bookstore without buying them. A quick skim, to see if you'd be interested in the book, I'm okay with. But if you want to read the book and don't want to pay for it, we already have an establishment set up for that. It's called a library.

Maybe I'm more of a hard on the subject than others. I just happen to feel that if you're using a service, you should be paying for the service.
post #44 of 46
If I lend my friend a purchased copy of the Lost DVD am I contibuting to copyright theft?
post #45 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
What about the people who come into my work every day and read entire books without buying them? Should I call the cops and say they're shoplifting?
Well, actually, a lot of newsagencies in Australia have signage in their shops saying `this is not a library - please buy the magazines' or something to that effect. Fair enough too.

In terms of who you are `stealing' from and whether it's ok to rip off a faceless corporation as opposed to an independent, it's a hard question and one that few people are hard-line cut and dried about.

I always buy music I want, from the bands that I love, especially if they are independent artists. Same with indie films. I downloaded Casino Royale but only after I'd paid for it at the theatre and I don't `distribute' our copy. I've downloaded lots of movies I've already paid to see. I also pay to download them (but not as much as I would if I bought the DVD, granted). It does become addictive though, and it's too easy to download something rather than make all the effort and go to the expense of going to the movies.

BUT also I think that puts us in danger of becoming more isolated. The internet is already doing that - we don't really need to go to movies or make actual phone calls or spend time with people anymore - everything we need is online, tip of the fingers type stuff.

Even now, I wouldn't normally go out and socialise with over two dozen people at 10.30 on a Tuesday night in my pajamas, but I can do it online and have a fine old time without setting foot outside my lounge room.

Aside from the ethical issues and ramifications of `stealing' music and movies - what about the social ones?
post #46 of 46
I can't even tell you how many people read entire books and magazines just in our store on a daily basis. Plenty, though. We aren't allowed to ask them to leave, and in fact there are tables and chairs and sofas for people to sit in while they read them. So why would a company encourage people to steal from them? They must not feel like they're losing business from it.

For the record, I don't like them either, because they're messy and inconsiderate and expect us to create an environment like a library... I'm sorry but on football game day when we're doing thousands in clothes and merch an hour, we're not turning the volume on the fight song down so you can read. But that's a rant for another thread.
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