Illegal immigrants in US - Page 4

lol my mother said the same about me, but for a different reason.
Only thing i have been saying, is come here legal and there is no issue. Also that people(more the ones on the news then here) need to stop trying to tie in illigal immigrants with race. They seem to think that by saying oh your a racist will discredit your view point etc. The race card has been so over played in this country that it makes it hard to tell when the racistim is real vs made up.

I am not upset over my tax dollars going to help someone how needs it,
I just want those people , to be people from my house( america) help them first, then if you can send your money to mexcio or china. where ever you want.
lol no idea, i dont watch TV much outside of the history channel, a&e, those types with a little sci fi tossed in from time to time.

nope just about everything in there is wrong. I was not just talking about hispanic illigal immigrants. how they may not get money back from a tax return, there kids, medical care etc, are more of a drain on the system then what they put in. Yea i do toss all illegal immigrants into the same category, cause they are the ones breaking the law, I never knew there was a partier stereotype are you sure that a real one?, well, look at the drug bust, dui, rapes killing that are done buy illegals, even if it was just 1 that is a increase , that would not have and should not have taken place.

err, and from what i know of history, we came here, to so they could have freedom of religion. and more elbow room.

i doubt that graph is real, i can link a graph that shows it at 19% but so what, But this is not a normal period is it? even if it was only 10% or 1% that should be money spent in lower tax rate, or to help americans.

i am sympathetic, but that does mean i cant see the trouble and issues being caused. along with the long term effect.

how in the past that was very true, but news flash, we dont have the high paying jobs anymore to support a large middle class. Those jobs have left for south of the border, for china, for korea. those days are DONE. What they are coming here for is now in there town paying 1 dollar a hour. Why do you think the value of your money is dropping and the price of good going up?
Why do you think there has been record number of banks taking back houses?
ford and other car mfg not selling? people dont have the money. cause there are no jobs. Sure you may have a 10 dollar a hour job, but that is not going to get you a 30,000 dollar car. or pay for a house in half way good area.

you say be ready for anything, but dont spend the money, you cant have it both ways. pick one. its always the same, gun or butter, well sad as it is ,you need to the guns so you can keep your butter.

My family are all legal immigrants during that time when we believed land wouldn't run out and the whole world could live here, my great-grandparents on one side came during the settlement of Ohio about 30 years after the civil war from Wales. The other side is a little older and German/Scandinavian and settled in Minnesota. By legal, I mean we could go find the records of their immigration, I know what ship they were on.

But this is all a matter of circumstance. Any number of us could just as easily be children of illegal immigrants.

This isn't a permanent thing. Remember when we actually believed that saying "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses longing to be free" that it says on our most iconic American emblem... Always we have had large influxes of people from places where conditions are terrible and those people have been hated and treated like dirt, only to go on and make this country what it is today. We are all mutts, and stronger for it.

Strange that so many of the arguments used today were used against the Irish, the Italians, the people fleeing the Holocaust (which everyone is in denial about, but it did happen), the eastern europeans, on and on. No, not in such great numbers, but proportionwise not so different.

Also strange that so many people (external to the forum) are rabidly patriotic about immigration, almost to the point of sounding like they think illegal immigrants are ruining some pristine American race (and they too make a distinction between legal and illegal immigration) that has never existed. I know when people say we're all immigrants many times they mean the argument about wh
'?)P_ (Zissou's comment <-) who are we to say someone can't come here, but I mean, what is the difference between now and any other time?

In the long view, especially the history of other south-of-america countries, I don't think this will much affect America.

Can anyone explain to me the strange, unnameable fear that seems to be evoked by the large influx of illegal immigration? What might they change? English language will perservere just fine, and what about American culture isn't adaptability? Is there any part of our culture that isn't in some way hybridized from someone else's?

the sign needs to be replaced with No Vacancy. or better yet, shipped back to france

Ask the people who where here first or Rome what can happen with uncontrolled immigrantion. many of the people that came here during the times you are talking about wanted to be american, How many of the new waves dont, they just want to send the money back home. Long time ago, people could just get lost and go create a life, but those groups made the effort to fit in. Like the irish did. who worked there way up, many started by beoming police, the elected to office etc. this new wave seem not to wnat to do that.

along with you take in the issues of drugs, and terror etc, it is just smart to control who come in. I know that is not much that can be done now about those that are here. BUt you can limit the the incoming.

I am more then willing to help ,open up the doors etc, for those that are fleeing for political or reglious reaons.

you bring up a point, "American culture" lol i really dont think we have one so to speak, not next to dealing with like japan, china etc. funny, really how some people say they hate the west for are culture, they seem to think that TV and movies is who we are. But no its not to protect american culture. it the demand placed on resources(same fight) and limited number. resources that should be spent on americans first, or new legal immigrants.

after all when you go to sleep at night, dont you lock your door?

Shipped back to France? The Statue of Liberty??? Are we really America if we've gone so far as to abandon that? There is plenty of vacancy. All over. Now, in some large cities it may not feel like it, but that is a function of the city, not immigrants. If most states had the population of Ohio we could fit millions upon millions more here. And no, the intersection of Euclid and Mayfield might not feel spacious, but Ohio has plenty of places you'd still describe as empty.

Illegal immigration isn't a matter of room, it's a matter of how many new people we can support at once, social structure, jobs, etc. Don't forget, new people create new jobs, by neccesity. I live in an area with lots of illegal immigrants, and believe you me, some of the companies here would not operate without them, and still others wouldn't have any business. They cause change, but not really detrimental. Does anybody have anything but speculation that they damage our economy in any way? Ask the people who advertise in the spanish-language papers or the numerous cable channels, whose ads invariably say "no social security needed"

Did the previous groups struggle to fit in? I don't think they did, not completely. There's a trend in academia now to refer to America as a mosaic, not a melting pot, and I think it is really more accurate. Just talking about Cleveland for a second. Go to West Side market for about 30 seconds. There is nothing homogenous about it. Every city in America has some neighborhood named after an ethnic group, and it ain't just for tourists. Aside from that, there are huge festivals, campouts, etc, for any number of ethnic varieties you could come from or want to visit. There are Greek Orthodox churches everywhere. America has never for a second, excepting maybe the height of the Cold War, been about blending in. We love feeling cosmopolitan even if we aren't. And, in Cleveland, the Irish and Italians and Russians and Czechs still stick together. North Olmsted is like a bunch of Irish villages stuck together. People stay in their neighborhood, each has it's own corner bar, etc etc etc. And they're proud of that. Why shouldn't they?

My family still hangs pickles in the Christmas tree, and I don't for a second think that's an American tradition.

naw, just abandon the statue where is this vacancy? It not the matter of space its a matter of how do you wish to live, in what life style.
do you want ohio to become more and more third world looking? thinking that mim wage job is a living? or is a large middle class the goal? .[/quote]


and we are are that limit, anyplace that places adds, or hires illigals should be shut down and the owners put in jail. cities and or states that dont turn in illgals that are caught should lose all federal money.

oh yea, they did stuggle, and they stuggled aganist real racisam(and yea, the irish where once on the KKK hit list also), the worest was the way the chinese immigrants where treated, they where not even allowed to bring there women. your right, i think the term mosaic, is a better way of putting it. lol after all, if you dont control the color going into a mosaic you end up with trash not art. the idea is control. Those things you talk about is the plus side, and of people who made the effort to become american, once agin this is about people that break the law and are illigal

Please, please, tell me that what that sounds like isn't at all what you meant.

We do need to control illegal immigration.

How?

Do we blame the immigrants who are illegal as a matter of happenstance, or do we try to fix what causes them to come here? If, as is often claimed, they don't really want to be American but are just coming here for our stuff, how do we help their countries?

Maybe I just don't want to accept someone's existence as illegal. Maybe I just can't find it in my heart to fault them. But I will never, not for a second, consider anything anyone does to keep themselves or their family alive, to be a crime. If they commit other crimes in the process that is different, but leaving a place that will probably cause an early death from drinking water isn't a crime to me.

When you can see creatures swimming in the water that is supposedly drinking water... it's hard to complain about a tax hike. Oh no, us poor Americans, paying taxes on our wages that are the same an hour as yours are for a week! (And, before anyone starts, I make minimum wage and am entirely independent)

I just don't get the begrudgement.

No, we aren't responsible for everyone in the world.

Take it like you would stray cats. Can we help every stray cat on earth? No, sadly, we can't. Can we try, at least, to help the ones who come to us for help? We can't invade countries claiming they need our help desperately and can't possibly survive without us at the same time as saying the people who actually are crying out to us for help don't deserve it. Or are we so fickle that we only help people when it doesn't affect us too much?

Should we help Americans first? Yes, but don't we? The fact that we deny aid to some people who truly deserve it has a lot more to do with our social policies than it does with our resources. We COULD help everyone, irrespective of illegal immigrants. But we DON'T. We're too busy giving capital gains no taxes at all. Because people really work for their inheritances.

ETA: Did anybody see South Park tonight? Please please somebody say yes!

oh please, what do they teach people these days.
you used the term Mosaic, which can mean serveral different things,
but in this case, i would assuem there meaning is ethic groups, or do they teach that ethic groups are just colors now? People outside of the US will see you as american=ethic groups not german backgroud etc. outside of here, they wont care if you mexcian american,greman american black american, etc, to everyone else you are jsut american SOOO if you keep adding color= ethic group(now remember ethic group does not= color since i can show you lots and lots of white mexcians) in lareg scale numbers, you change the over all picture in this case picture= country

there does that explain and thanks for making me type all of that
you can allow the people whose job it is to do it, when someone is caught send them back.dont just let them lose again. etc,

there is no happenstance, they know they are breaking into this country same as breaking into some else home.
so, if i just showed up at your apartment and moved in ahd said feed me,
that is ok? whats your address again of course there existence as in living is not , there body in my house is.

We do try american give billions of dollars are year, to help per person american give far more then other places do(not the goverment people)
I guess we could start TNR programs in places for people. hehe now that would be a strange idea,


No we cant help everyone, cause its been seen time and time again, that some people just dont want help.

lol nope i am in the office, dealing with my office in gag germany right now, whose email server is not playing nice,

lol ok i am going back to work now

Sorry, combining two different posts of yours... and skipping a bunch of other stuff cause I've got to go get ready to get my son...

Of course, there isn't an issue if they come here legally. I think that's been established by all sides. But, there is an issue with coming here illegally, and to me, the bigger issue is that the it's not impossible, but to the point where.. it's not feasible for them to come here legally... the issue, to my point of view is that we need to make it feasible and reasonable for them to come here. And saying well, there's no problem with legal immigration is saying, well, we don't mind the rich immigrants coming here, they do it legally. And so we're sitting here having a debate about whether or not they're entitled to benefits because their illegal, when our citizens aren't getting help, and in some cases our homeless are better off than some of the illegal immigrants that come here. How can we begrudge someone for breaking that law when their situation is that desperate? I don't see the solution to illegal immigration as judging the immigrant... it *should* be to fix the government or get the government to fix the system. And I think it was in another post, but honestly, there's a big difference between someone who shop lifts a candy bar and someone who is committing mass murder, or raping children. And it's a very rare american or actually, person, who hasn't broken the law at least once.

Given that the money spent on arms from all *other* countries is approximately the same amount as the USA spends by itself, how is it that we can't spend less and still be prepared for anything? That makes absolutely no logical sense. I mean, as an example.. this is much like an ant taking on an elephant. Our military power so far dwarves the power from any other single country, in fact, all of them could band together and we'd still have as much as all of the other countries in the world combined together... um.. how is it that I can't have it both ways? Are you saying that someone who makes 4 billion dollars a year and pays a body guard 100,000 wouldn't be able to still survive if they also covered said body guards living expenses and gave them a raise? It's just a redistribution of the money. We'd still have plenty of protection. We really don't need to build more and more nuclear war heads, top of the line tanks to replace last years top of the line tanks, top of the line airplanes that are years ahead of any military response that the other countries have.. what need do we have to replace them all the time when we're so far ahead. It's only for status. We'd still be well protected without the newest fastest bestest technology.

Anyway, don't have time to reply to other stuff. . Gotta run...

I am having a really big problem with the Illegals. The new announcements today have not improved my outlook on the issue.

1. I hate that all the news organizations say Immigrant Rights. :censor::censor::censor:? Since when do illegal criminal non-citizens of this country have more rights than Americans?

2. Illegal rallies. When is it alright for a bunch of criminals to get together and march, shooting guns and demanding they should be allowed to break the law. Why is INS not there and rounding them up and sending them back. Maybe we should allow serial killer rallies and rapist's rights marches.

3. Coyotes are expensive....where are all these people getting $1000 to pay someone to bring them across the border.

4. There should not be any such thing as an anchor baby. I am sorry hopping across the border illegally just in time to give birth should not make that child a US citizen. I am sure that the citizenship law was for people who were in this country LEGALLY and had a child.

5. I live in the US, we speak English here and yet at least half of the tv commercials are in Spanish on our local stations. The state lottery commercials are also in Spanish. Our governor who is running for President, said he would not condemn Alberto Gonzalas's actions because he was Hispanic. I am much more a Democrat than a Republican...but come on Richardson you are running for the President of the US not the President of Mexico.

6. For anyone in a border state, look up Verde Realty LLC out of El Paso. They own 6 million acres of border land (mexican and us) and are creating "Bi-National Industrial State". Their goal is to industrialize the entire boarder from CA to Tx. Again Richardson just praised this group for bringing 130 jobs to Santa Teresa as support for the new Electrolux factory in Juarez! yeah that is good for America

7. We are supposedly in a "War on Terror". These terroist groups are very well funded and are NOT stupid. Hmmmm we have uneducated, poor Mexican Nationals able to enter this county at a rate of 700,000 a year but terrorists cannot get in and we are really safe. How stupid is that. Our southern border is a sieve, and it is not just Mexican Nationals entering this county.

8. There are laws against hiring illegals. They need to be enforced. I don't believe for one instant that they don't know they are hiring Illegals. Our local stores have the shelves stocked with all the Spanish labels facing forward. and all the overhead directional markers have the Spanish identifiers first and twice as large as the English ones. Hello I live in the United States, not Mexico.

9. If any other country's citizens were streaming into this country at a rate of 20,000 people a month it would be considered and invasion. Why are we trying to play "politically correct" with Mexico. We certainly don't see our good neighbors to the North streaming south at such a rate.

ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG this whole thing makes me insane. There should be no debate here. If we need more people in this country then up the quotas for LEGAL, Law abiding immigrants that want to come to this country and make it a better place. The illegals are nothing but a bunch of criminals and not the type of people that will improve this country

Thanks for providing a place for me to rank on this topic. It really makes me irate

There was an article in our paper recently about this one guy who was about to lose the fight to be deported because he was here illigially. The article went into how sad it was for his 3 year old son who loved his father very much and even had trouble going to sleep without his father tucking him into bed.

Sorry, no sympathy here. No one is saying that little boy can't go to Mexico with his father. Even his wife, who is an American citizen, I'm sure will be able to go to Mexico with her family. If that family loves each other that much, this shouldn't seperate them.

Excellent post!

I am not too sure how it works in the US but coming from an immigrant, I can see why some people give up on the immigration process and don't bother.

I first moved here on a student work visa and lived with Matt, my visa was valid for 1 year and cost me around $1500 Canadian for all the checks and paperwork they needed.

Then it can take up to 6 months to renew, but by the time the year is up they don't class me as a student, so I had to apply for a special terms extension, another $1200 Canadian. I need to live here for 3 years before they will accept me for permanent resident status so I have had to do this twice since the first renewal because my file happened to be done quicker than the 6 months and they date it the day they complete the file regardless of how long is left on the original.

Now I am filling out all the paperwork for my permanent resident card, which I still need to file another extention because it takes up to a year to process, so the two together is going to cost me $3500.

We are talking about $10k to become a citizen. I realise that you can apply for a green card sooner in the US, but still, I imagine that most of these people just don't have the money, and even if they come in legally, end up living there illegally because the cost of renewing visas is rediculous.

Just another side of the story

I also have to pay taxes and unemployment benefits but can not actually claim welfare until I get my permanent resident card.

Eithne, you are so right, it is very expensive to legally immigrate to most countries. I honestly don't know of any Country that has an open border. If I am wrong someone please post it. I still don't see expense as a valid excuse for breaking the law though. If I want or even NEED a new pair of shoes, just because I cannot afford them does not make it right for me to steal them. In my book breaking the law, is breaking the law. The flip side is that ALL countries with financial standard for immigration are explicitly blocking the poor.



My best friends husband is a Uruguayan (sp) National. He had the same issues as you when first coming to this country. He had to fly home to Uruguay to renew his Visa three times ( fights alone were 1500 each trip) that didn't count all the other fees. In order to just get a visa he had to have $5000 in US funds, an astonomical amount by Uruguayan standards. If his bank account went below that he would be deported even with a valid Visa. After 911, the US added restrictions for Uruguayan Visas stipulating that a person must be a homeowner as well. That effectively shut off all Visas because 90 percent of the country does not own their own home.

Unfortunately Immigrantion regulations are in place for a reason. The "more desirable" countries just cannot support all the people from less fortunate countries. It is not logistically possible.

There was a post that was deleted in this thread where someone took extreme offense to my post above. I want to clearify several points.

1. I am not anti any ethinic group or nationality. I stated about the mexican nationals and the spanish language because in the US far and away the highest percentage of Illegal immigrants are Mexican Nationals and they speak Spanish. This is simply because of proximity. If our neighbor to the south was the Congo and not Mexico, my statements would be Congloese and what ever their national language is. If it was Greece to our south and 20,000 of their Citzens were illegally entering the US a month. I would have then stated the Greeks and everything being in Greek. This thread is NOT about Racism.

2. Since the above is the factual truth, it leads to the need to stop being politically correct and require the Mexican Government to take care of their own citizens. The Mexican government is not Poor, but they are corrupt. Hmmmm sounds like our government. The Mexican government is also one that is "freely" elected by their people. Hmmmmm, just like our Government. There is absolutely no reason that we should be responsible for their Citizens. or Citizens of any other nation for that matter. I speak of Mexico, because they are the ones who are sending 20,000 illegal aliens into this country a month.

3. this thread is specifically about Illegal Immigrants. I would bet no one has a problem with legal immigrants. I certainly don't. In fact I would bet that Legal Immigrants don't like the Illegal immigrants either. If we didn't have 20 millions Illegals in this Country we could have relaxed immigration standards and allowed 20 million more Legal immigrants (from all nations) who are willing to follow the rules to become Citizens. Goodness forbid we could have actually sponsered families who could not afford the fees!

3. For legal immigrants becoming a Citizen of their "adoptive" country ( no matter what country that may be) is by far one of the most meaninful days of their lives.

4. I do feel bad for people who are suffering, in any country. However that does not change the fact that they are breaking the law when they enter this country illegally. The straight truth of the matter is this does make them a criminal, no matter how bad we feel for them. They are willing to break the law for their own personal gain to the detriment of others who abide by the law. This is a state of mind.

5. Once in this country illegally, the necessity to hide this fact makes them continue to break laws to stay here. Our laws become a farce and this type of lifestyle does not make for a model citizen. It makes for a criminal. Does it make them an axe murder, no, but still they are a criminal. Sorry that is the truth, even if we feel bad for these people.

6. Once every single legal Citizen in this country makes a living wage, has a roof over their heads, has cloths, food, an education, and healthcare then we can start making sure Illegals in this country have the same. We cannot save others if we cannot save ourselves.


I feel bad for persons living in other countries where life is not as good as it is here. However we cannot help them all, we cannot house them all. That is their Government's responsiblity.

It is NOT America's job to fix the rest of the world. We have spent so much time, money, and human life trying to fix the rest of the world that we have fogotten about what is going on here at home.

You can't get irate about people speaking Spanish and then say you have nothing against legal immigrants. Millions of Americans speak Spanish as a first language. We are a bilingual citizenship. THAT is a fact. Another fact is that there are even more people who have work permits to come to America to work but not live crossing the border on a daily basis. By your logic, they are free to never learn a word of English because they aren't trying to live here. Do you want them crashing into you because they can't read road signs, or do you want them to get where they are going? How much does the fact that the road signs are in Spanish actually affect your life? Why let it bother you? If your grocery store caters to more people speaking spanish than english, why wouldn't they put the products so they can read them? It seems that where you live you're a minority.

It isn't a matter of saying that you're a racist because you hate Mexicans, I'm not the post who got deleted, but we've had this conversation before. You can't tell by looking at someone, hearing them talk, whether they're legal or illegal or even if they're citizens or not. I have heard the assumption that anyone who looks hispanic is illegal so many times in real life that it's hard to believe that most people who are so vehemently anti-illegal-immigration have never thought the same thing.

As for our own country, we could have all the things you listed. It isn't a matter of not being able to do that that is preventing it, it is a matter of conservative unwillingness. If we have billions to spend daily on an unnecessary unprovoked war, we could have fed, clothed, housed, and paid everyone.

Which brings me to my next point, that of this very debate illegitimizing the war in Iraq. People say over and over that we can't help everyone and it's not our job to police the world and so on, which were the very arguments for the war in Iraq when it was discovered that the first few reasons were all outright lies. Can't have it both ways. We can't defend an invasion by saying that people who don't want us there need our help and at the same time tell people to go home and die because they don't have the right papers.

Especially when the horribleness of their condition is our fault because of the corporate greed that is Nafta.

¿Tenemos una ciudadanÃ:censor:a bilingüe? ¿Qué siempre le dio esa idea?

No tengo ninguna idea. Es posible que es la verdad?

Es mucho la verdad. Un ciudadano americano de habla hispana me enseñé a español.

What little I know, that is

You are coloring my posts with assumptions made from other posts. This country is not a bi-lingual country, it is a MULTI LINGUAL country and that is the problem. Many many many people dont speak English at all. I don't speak Spanish, at least not fluently, My second language is French, which by the way is the language of my heritage. I am making the assumption that both you and Skippy, based on your Spanish conversation below both learned Spanish because of your Hispanic ancestory. As you stated it is a problem when migrant workers come here and drive and don't speak or read the language and kill people.
My point exactly.

However providing everything in Spanish is the wrong solution. We must not be providing information in other languages if we expect Immigrants to learn the lEnglish when they come here. If we are going to do this then we damn well better do if for all languages, not just Spanish. If the Spanish speaking immigrants, legal or Illegal have the right to have all road signs, instructional signs, shopping directories etc in their native language then so do every other non native speaking persons that enter this country.

That reasoning is rediculous, except that is just what this Nation is required to do. Because we are the ONLY country that has not declared a National Language we have no connective common thread to pull us all together. We legally as a government have to supply all forms, documents health care providers, police, EMT's in all the different languages that are in this country or it is descrimination. This has already been through the courts.

Without the cohesive thread of a common language we have become a fractured, segregated society.

Oh and BTW I have almost been killed by Mexican drivers ( dont know if legal or not). See in Mexico your left turn signal tells the person behind you it is OK for them to pass you on the left. As you know here in the US the left turn signal means we are making a left turn. Picture the scenario, you make a left turn off a rural highway, and the person behind you speeds up to highway speeds to pass you on the left. Not a pretty outcome.

Where I live I am not a minority, the Spanish labels are facing out because the stockers are mostly illegal immigrants that are hired as very cheap labor by irreputable US companies looking to make large profits. However if the Illegal flow is not stopped ( and again I say ILLEGAL) yes many of the border states are going to have more Mexican nationals living in them than legal US citizens. At that point we should just give those states back to Mexico, because the way were are going now we certainly are not expecting the Illegal aliens to make any attempt at assimilating into American culture, or what is left of it. Legal immigrants from Mexico, and all other countries, go through a process by which they are taught the rules of the country and the English language so they can become productive members of THIS society.

There are quotas on the number of people that are allowed to immigrate from different countries. The restrictions required for entering this country legally are also different for each country. Because of the proximity of Mexico to the US, Mexican Nationals have the ablity to bypass the immigration laws if they so choose. They have the ability to enter this country illegally, in large numbers, like no other citizens living in other deprived nations do.



No you can't tell by just looking at anyone, but you can tell by interacting with them. I interact with legal and illegal immigrants on a regular basis because I live in a border town in a border state. And just because you have a hard time believing something, doesn't make it unreal.

Yes we could, maybe. However it seems the majority of this country prefers going to war. We can't have both, we are in debt over our heads. Not that it matters but I am not a conservative. I can't stand George W. Bush and I was one of the few people speaking out against the Iraq war before we ever invaded that country. However, this thread is not about whether or not our current administration is doing a good job or not, it is about ILLEGAL immigrants, the vast majority of which in this country happen to be Mexican Nationals. I am sorry if you don't like those facts, but that is the truth.


Ok I am not completely understanding what you are saying here. Did you mean to say Legitimizing the War in Iraq? Again this thread is not about the war in Iraq it is about Illegal immigration. I can't comment further on this because I don't clearly understand the point you are trying to make.



One major faux pas here. NAFTA was pushed for by the corrupt Mexican government as well. It is not just greedy US corporations it is the greedy Mexican corporations as well. Despite popular belief the Mexican government is not poor. The Mexican people elect their government just as "freely" as we do in our country. Sorry your logic of placing blame entirely on the US doesn't fit. The Mexican people need to stand up to their government just the way the US people need to stand up to ours.

Until this country takes care of its own Legal citizens, I do not believe we should be taking care of any other country's illegal nationals. Charity begins at home... how about we make sure the Katrina victims are no longer living in 20 ft FEMA travel trailer for a family of four, by the time we hit the two year post storm mark? That would be a good place to start. We can also make sure our own citizens all have a roof over their heads, food, clothing and a decent education. Lets throw healthcare into that mix as well.

When all of this has been done for our Citizens, both the ones born here and the ones who have entered this country Legally. Then we can start helping out the Illegals.

Here is Southern California where I live you can pretty much tell who is legal and who is not that's a fact, The legal ones are living behind me and across the street from me, They are Teachers and Nurses People who work hard have good jobs working for the City Of Los Angeles for the County Cornorer's office they have 1 or 2 Children not 6.
I can't even go shopping here in a decent store without having to pick the stuff of the floor to look at it. There are lots of illegals here in the US and no not just Mexican but here where I am that's what they are.. I am sick of being pushed out of where I live and there is no where to go anymore, someone needs to step up in this US Government and speak for US..

I am sorry but I am not a racists I have said it many times. We could not go anywhere from this Country if we didn't have to right paperwork. I blame part of it on Our Crummy Government

There Government should be doing what they think we should be responsible for

This is the definition for Racist

The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

Once again I am not a Racist,

I am just wanting it to be done the correct way, there's to many people in the US that have been here there whole life that could use a little extra to get by on and they can't get it,, No fair in my eyes its BS

Maybe it's been said in here already, but the army seems to becoming a little desparate for people to enlist (recent age for signing up just increased to 42).

If illegal immigrants want to work in our country, then why doesn't the government say "You want to stay here and earn a living? Join the army, fight alongside the rest of the soldiers in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc and server in the army for 6 years. Once you are done, you can have perminant residency".

After all we had to fight for our freedom and land...why not make those that want a free ticket here do the same??

I believe they already do that at least that's what my DH says he was in the Navy over 20 years.

This has nothing to do with the topic, but I don't have a Hispanic ancestory. I had 3 hispanic room mates in my 4 man barracks room in the Marine Corps for almost 4 years. At first it was a game, just seeing what I could pick up by listening, but it got serious pretty quickly, with me always asking "how do I say.....?" But because I never took any classes, most of what I know is just lingo

I apologize for my assumption. As I said my Spanish is not fluent, and that is what I got from trying to piece together your statements. I did get you learned it as a second language, got the reasoning wrong.

Again, I apologize.

Oh, no need to apologize, I took no offense. To be completely and totally honest, I was quite happy that you considered my Spanish decent enough to think that it came from hispanic heritage

I was the poster who was deleted, by my own fingers, hitting the delete button, because I decided what I posted in the heat of the moment was more inflammatory than what I normally post, and it was over the top for me, as I normally try not to be insulting or dismissive... not to say that it does not sometimes happen, but I do at least try to make an effort. I also realized that it looked directly like I was targetting Kittymonsters, but as I replied to her PM, a lot of my angst stems from many many previous posts and my own frustration at the differences of opinions here. One or two of the things she said I answered and it was directed at her post, but that again was answered in my PM reply to her.


Now, in response to some of the things, and I think this one came from kittymonsters... I think the cohesive thread that pulls our nation together is usually the love for the people in it and the love for our country and what it stands for. Currently do we have that??? No, but I don't think that's because of the differences in language. Most of the people I've met, and they could be legal or illegal, I can't tell you which they are. I didn't ask to see their documentation... if they don't speak English or don't speak it fluently, *want* to learn English. I often practice my Spanish with someone who wants to practice their English.. which unfortunately hits a snag when neither of us knows enough of the other language to convey what we mean well enough to get past that point..

People from other countries do stand up to their governments. They form groups and organizations and they do what they can to turn the tides of corruption and anarchy, and that is why the US, in theory, offers asylum.. because when you stand up to a government, therein starts problems such as being held captive and tortured, that is, if you aren't killed outright for opening your mouth first... well, then, perhaps you can bribe the officials holding you, or perhaps the price they're telling your family they want as a ransom will be paid.. and I think that being as blessed as we are (no matter the state of our government currently).. we just don't realize what is going on out there. We're blissfully unaware. I never knew, until the point in time when I started transcribing for the US Board of Immigration Appeals, and listened to attorneys, and judges, and the plights and tribulations of the people trying to come here, just what all is happening in other countries. And, by the way, in the thousands of individual cases I transcribed... only FOUR people got their relief that they were requesting. That's out of all the forms of relief offered to one facing deportation; TPS, refugee, asylum, cancellation of removal... and there's no counting how many of them tried and tried and tried to get paperwork filed legally, and it was part of the evidence entered and documented for these people in their individual court cases.. of course, some of them were just trying to "get one over" on the judge by claiming that they'd be persecuted so that they had a chance at asylum, but the majority were not.

Now, regarding the racism comment... I posted at the end of my post that I could understand how racial profiling or stereotyping turns into racism, given how emotional and how irate some of the posts had been. That's not a direct quote as I deleted it last night, but that's why it came up again. I did not call anyone a racist. And, given this definition, as posted earlier... The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others... isn't it a fairly logical conclusion how extreme anger and emotion turns to racism? Is that saying that anyone here is BEING a racist??? NO. Have I specifically said in one post earlier in this thread that I didn't think anyone was engaging in racism, and rather that they did engage in stereotyping, and potentially even racial profiling... yes.

As for the people who are here that need the little bit extra.. I agree, they do, and I think our government should be trying to take care of it, but, um.. if the government doesn't deem them qualified, it's not the immigrants, legal or illegal taking it away from them. It's the government. Even if they kick all the immigrants off of whatever social benefits they're receiving, the government *STILL* is not going to grant them to someone they consider inelligible. Fair? No, it's not.

And in reference to another point, we cannot classify immigrants into two categories only. There are other categories in which they fit that do not fall into illegal or citizen.

I'm not an iota hispanic either. I'm German, Scandinavian, and Welsh, and the closest immigrants to America in my family are my great grandparents. I learned Spanish in my lily-white suburb in Ohio, so maybe I don't fully appreciate the culture where you live. BTW, the conversation below, to translate, says "We have a bilingual culture? Whatever gave you that idea?" "I have no idea, maybe because it's the truth?" "It is very much the truth, I learned spanish from an american citizen."

The Mexican government isn't anything like our government, and the fact that they pushed for it to has nothing whatsoever to do with whether its the US' fault or not. If you punch your little sister in the face and then threaten to do worse if she tells, whose fault is it? Hers?

How exactly is Spanish pulling apart our country? That makes no sense. Also I could give you numerous studies that would prove that taking away Spanish doesn't help people learn English. It does not. It makes the problem worse by isolating people even more. The majority of immigrants want to, and want their children to, learn English as well and quickly as possible. It just isn't that easy. They don't magically speak a new language after setting foot across the border.

It is unfortunate that Catsarebetter, deleted her orignal post. The discussion we have had via PM over it has been really quite wonderful. We both de-escalated the intensity and really discussed the issues.

Sorry that you live in what you feel is a lily-white suburb that prevents you from realizing the impact current Illegal (again I stress the ILLEGAL) immigration is having on this country.

You seem to be skipping over the point that Spanish was brought up by myself specifically, because Mexican Nationals are the largest proportion of ILLEGAL immigrants in this country and low and behold they speak Spanish. I am not commenting on the number of legal Spanish speaking immigrants.

I still am not in agreement of your bi-lingual statement and stand by my statement that MULTI-lingual is more correct. You seem to be implying this Country is a Spanish/English bi-lingual nation. That is most assuredly NOT the truth. While yes, the majority of people speak more than one language, those languages are not necessarily Spanish and English. There are many more languages spoken in this country than just those two. Many biligual people in this country don't speak either of these languages. Also in terms of being bi-lingual, the US is far behind the majority of other countries in adopting this philosophy.

Finally, you failed to address the actual point of this part of my post which is the need for a declared National language. Making signs in foreign languages because there is a large population of foreign Nationals in a particular area is not the answer. If this was the case then to avoid descrimination we MUST provide signs in all languages, not just Spanish.

HUH? Are you so far to the left that you actually believe our Government is the only corrupt and abusive goverment in the world? (I apply the corrupt and abusive to all parties equally by the way). You are the one that said NAFTA was the cause of all Mexican citizens problems. Well NAFTA was wanted by both the U.S and Mexican governments. It was the Mexican and American citizens that were not for it. So both governments are liable. Where is your logic for releasing the Mexican government from its liability?

As to your analogy, I am guessing it means the U.S. is a bully. Yes I agree we have very much developed into a greedy, bullying nation. However, that doesn't mean that all other nations cow down to us, just as some people stand up to bullies. The Mexican government is very much responsible for the plight of its own people. All governments are responsible for the plights of their own people. The buck stops at the top.


You are missing the point again here. Spanish is not pulling apart our country, the lack of a contiuous common language for all citizens is. Realisitically English makes the most sense for a common language in this country. When we connot communicate with each other that makes for a non-cohesive nation. This lack of common language is a contibuting factor to our now "mosaic" nation as opposed to the "melting pot" of the past.

In my example I used Spanish because that is what is happening here, in the NOW. I know people who have lived here for years and don't speak English and have no intention of learning English. They don't have to learn English to live here, because Spanish is everywhere. Even our voter cards are printed in English and Spanish, with the Spanish in Bold and first.

Now, if ALL the immigrants that want to come here and really want to be citizens and make the effort to speak English then why must our voter ID cards be printed in Spanish? The immigrants that have been here long enough to become citizens and earn the right to vote, most certainly have been here long enough to learn English don't you think?

I agree that the immigrants that are willing to go through the rigors of becoming a legal citizen really do want to learn English. I also agree English is not an easy language to learn. I actually have a book titled "The English Language for Students of French". However I know a good many immigrants , most from Hispanic nations and a few from Russia. All knew a small amout of English before coming here, nowhere near enough to be fluent though. Why? because they didn't have the means to speak it everyday. When they got to this country they all learned to communicate very effectively within a couple of months. What helped the most? Watching TV with closed captioning! They all said that it was better NOT to have their native language to fall back on, because the need to communicate effectively drove their desire to learn. I would love to read the scientific studies you refer to that negate the experience of these actual immigrants. It doesn't take years to learn to speak English well enough to communicate.

One final note here. The late local news was on as I began to type this. The Govenors of New Mexico and Arizona have gone to President Bush today with an emergency request for immediate increased Border security. This is due to the drug cartels overtaking 1/3 of the Mexican states and the inability of the Mexican government to control them. The violence of this is spilling over into our States. Govenor Richardson specificaly referred to these criminals as making up a good portion of the illegal immigrants crossing our porous border. I was hoping to have a link to the story, but it is not online . If the news station does post it online I will provide the link.

If you have read my previous post or have been following the Democratic Primary race, you will know that Govenor Richarson is a very proud Mexican- American Citizen. So it is not just the lily-white, ultra conservative Republicans that are worried about this. You really should come on down and view the future of this Country if we do not do something about Illegal immigration and our Southern border.

Cool...I didn't realise that.

Sorry for missing your point. I've had all these discussions before here and they melt together after awhile. Search for my posts in the prior threads, if you want to see what I would say about all of these issues.

And I've been to the border twice, once to visit a refugee camp set up on the banks of the Rio Grande in Texas.