kitten overpopulation question

booktigger

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I foster for a small cat charity (around 160 cats helped/homed last year) - we had a large amount of kittens in over X Mas, I think we had about 10 of them, they all did go really quickly as soon as we started homing in Jan. We have had kittens in Feb, and we currently have kittens in now, some ready this week, some at the end of May - and it isn't strictly kitten season yet. The local RSPCA have had kittens and puppies all year so far. We didn't have that many kittens the December before though. Of course there is a kitten overpopulation - there always will be, the only way we wont is if the only kittens born are to people who have screened both parents, and carefully matched them, and also done their timings. Sadly, I dont think we will ever see that happen. We haven't had any true feral kittens in yet, but they were ones that had the potential to be feral if we couldn't help. IT does hamper the adults finding homes though, we had an 8 year old homed yesterday, she has been with us since October!! I hope the 2.5 and 6yo's here find it easy for a home, the 2.5yo has been here 5 weeks though.
 
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minxie

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Ok my replies in blue.....

Originally Posted by furryferals

Just to answer some of your questions....but your questions have raised more than
questions to me.....these questions I can tell you are the kind of questions I have
been proposed by unscrupulous breeders
In MY honest experience



minxie...Ok I hope I dont come across as ignorant here, I genuinely dont know the answer and hope someone can nicely tell me it.
I just wanted to know from the UK rescuers if the kitten overpopulation problem is a big problem here in the UK?

Yes It is a big problem....just as it is in any part of the world with 'unplanned '
pregnancies and Irresponsible pet owners.

Thank you

Why I ask this is because of my experiences 3 years ago, when I was looking for a kitten. I had previously taken in an older cat from a rescue shelter and wanted a kitten at that time to 'fit in' with the older cat (and of course experience the joys of kitten ownership).
I rang numerous shelters in my area and they had no kittens. When I contacted people advertising domestic moggies privately, all the kittens had gone. All that was available were pure breed cats or 'semi pure breed cats' (e.g. people trying to make money from half persians and siamese) for over £100. I eventually found kitten Tinkerbelle after 2 months of looking. A domestic tortie for £50. I admit, I did not look outside my county for travelling purposes.

Sorry
but I don't understand your line of questioning...why would you..... an

'ordinary person' want to know the ' supply and demand' statistics'


Because there was a debate-causing thread recently which emphasised the kitten over population problem..one member quoting euthanasia of cats in the 9000s in the US. And I just wanted to know 'is it as bad as that here in the UK?', as from my experiences I never realised it was. I was discussing this issue in pm with someone who was raising the same queries about the status of things in the UK..and so I thought it would be a worthwhile post to 'clear up' the matter and get clear, straight answers. Maybe Im overly sensitive, but I am a little bothered why you think its odd of me to ask these questions. I hope you understand now where Im coming from now. I was in two minds to post..I thought people would think im ignorant or think im defending breeding moggies. I just wanted to know what the status of the situation is. Without facts and truth, we cant form good valid opinions to base our actions on. But i thought if I dont ask, I wont know until i ask someone else outside of TCS. And it seemed a shame not to ask here as there are a pool of UK rescuers here who have the experience to reply. I did not ask because I am an 'unscrupulous breeder' looking to breed, despite the fact that such people have asked you these questions in the past.

In the rescue shelters which I visited, it seemed the BIG problem they faced was rehoming older cats, not rehoming kittens. To quote someone I dealt with at a rescue place 'the kittens go like hotcakes'.

So would you say this is a reason to breed moggies?

Of course NOT. Its patronising if someone thought i could say yes to that. Im just stating what Ive been told. One person tells me 'kittens go like hotcakes', one person tells me thousands of cats need to be euthanised and there are too many kittens..just trying to know whats actually happening.

Even when I put my kittens last year in a cattery when I went on a weekend break, the cattery owner said to me that he could have 'sold the kittens 5 times over'..people dropping off their cats at the cattery saw my kittens (then about 4 months old) and were willing to pay good cash for them, until they realised the kittens were boarding themselves and not for sale.

Is this anymore reason to breed moggies ?

No, Im just saying what happened. I am saying that to back up why I have questions as to the extent of the kitten over population problem. Its good you point that out as I dont want some one else to misinterpret as a reason to breed moggies either.

So what is the situation in the UK?

The situation in the UK is just like anywhere else in the world...People breeding
moggies and selling them to pet shops to earn a quick buck...Pet shops sell them
to the first person that comes through the door...they go to their new ' homes'
un-neutered and un-spayed AND UN-VACCINATED, I hope that answers THAT QUESTION for you.

Thank you.

I admit I havent talked to my local cat welfare organisations about this. TCS is always my first port of call lol. And its something I need to be clued up about especially if Im looking at fostering soon.

To be Honest Mel,and I'm not being funny or nasty but just honest as you do seem
to want answers.
I know for a fact no Rescue would for a better word 'entertain' you as a possible foster,
If they were to know about the unplanned pregnancies of your own cats in the past,
because they want people who are responsible and that they can trust with the lives
of the cats and kittens and if they were to know about your cats I know they would
see you as a ' liability' so to speak...because they could not be sure that the fosters
would not escape and end up getting pregnant.
It's just not worth the risk to them


Ok, the idea of fostering came into my head when I realised that I do have the means and passion to care for multiple cats. And my passion to look after them properly (mainly inspired and improved through learning through TCS, other cat care websites and working for my local shelter on a fund raising basis) and to help out a species of creature I absolutely love . My preference is for pregnant cats/ kittens as I have 2 spare rooms I can use as rooms, just for them and I feel a calling to help them knowing these little innocent lives need help getting the best start, plus its what would fit in best with my exisiting cats. I talked to my local shelter about my desire to foster. I made them aware of my situation and they know the score. And they were grateful for my offer of assistance, they have visited me and we have talked extensively. How is looking after two 6 weeks old semi ferals..loving them, socialising them for 6-8 weeks risking getting them pregnant? You said no Rescue would entertain me as a foster based on my past. Thank goodness not everyone is as unforgiving and has marked my card forever when they know me as a person now and what I am capable of giving and what I have learned. They have 'slapped me on the hand' conversation wise. But they have seen how my cats live and how I love them. Who am I today, what I know and what I stand by. The lady i'm dealing with at least can take a few positive things from my situation....a) i know a bit about kitten care enough to be of help and they need the help b) Im very much pro-spaying/neutering today. Who I am now, what I can offer now...someone has deemed I am fit to foster subject to me visiting the shelter twice a week and them observing me with the semi-ferals and just us getting to know each other better. And I am grateful for that opportunity and for their perception of me as responsible enough to consider me as a short-term foster of semi-ferals who need care and socialsing before they go to forever homes. I actually had you in mind to ask advice in future based on your feral experience if I needed it...worried now lol!

Your comment 'they want people who are responsible'....hmmm...an implication i'm irresponsible. Spaying/neutering is, believe it or not, a key issue for me now. Out of 5 post-6 month old cats I have, 4 have been spayed/neutered last year and 1 its spay is booked for next month. Every kitten that has been born under my roof I have KEPT (except for one who is cherished by my parents) and treated like gold . That is irresponsibility is it? I put my hands up and say that i shouldnt have had them first place in theory having been made aware of and learned more about the kitten/cat homing problem (although 1 pregnancy was entirely not my fault) but its hard for me to feel that in practice as I love them so much..but I do know what is right and wrong at the end of the day). If Ive created a problem, I have looked after it, sorted it out unlike loads of people out there. I havent sold these kittens for money. I havent given them away to homes Im unsure of. Ive kept them and use my hard earned money to vaccinate/spay/neuter/feed/care for them. So Im very sensitive about being called irresponsbile generally...especially when on top of that, I know how important spaying/neutering is now.

I just want to say, that not everyone is born with the magic skills of perfect cat care or had the opportunites or taken the time to learn them to the extent that rescuers obviously have. For a lot of people (not saying all people), we fall in love with cats as children or adults, get them as pets and then learn then ins and outs of looking after them beyond basic love/feeding through our experiences..sites like TCS really help show the way to go with cat care. Not everyone who comes here knows about cats/kittens like you have experienced. And to be labelled as 'irresponsible' is hurtful when a) I love my cats more than life itself b) Im on TCS Night and Day wanting to learn how to look after my cats even better. I am just trying to learn from you.

I am starting to resent how I feel I have to justify myself here. Im starting to think its just better to read than post. Yes the Uk rescuers views are the correct ones. Not everyone is perfect. But we can learn to be. Thats what Im trying, thats what i feel I am doing. But I cant help but feel after this post that I am viewed as the most awful irresponsible owner by all out there. If that is the case, well, me and my 7 cats will just have to get on with it..things will be better from the knoweldge and tips Ive learned from TCS, but why ask questions when you want are factual replies and not personal judgements/questioning. If that response is viewed as 'another one getting sensitive when they are told they are wrong'... people need to join THS...The Human Site. I feel angry with myself for the tone Im taking when I feel I am talking to a friend (I view people on TCS as that, especially after having had correspondence with them), someone on the same side, someone who has done more work with their little finger for cats than i have. But on the same token, Im upset here why im questioned for asking these questions to try and educate myself..why I feel I have to rant on justifying to validate my place here on TCS as a good person and responsible cat owner..when thats is all i am striving to be. I rejoined this site in February of this year and since then I have taken so much time to LEARN and UNDERSTAND and be a better owner to my cats. Its not until I started reading every post, really getting involved that I started to understand what the messages were and why they were so important. So Im at the other end of the scale to you...probably viewed as an 'amateur' in terms of what I know about the kitten situation...so understand my questions.


I hope this has enlightened you a little bit to the plight of animals bred unneccesarily.

Thank you. It has. But i want to stress that my intention by this post was not to justify the breeding of more moggies. It was to sort out any confusions I had in my head from contradicting sources of information. When I was reading a lot of the posts here, I was left with feeling 'crikey, are things as bad as that over here as our US friends are saying..I know there's a global problem, but is it as bad here?'. I know Im not the only one to have thought that on here. I hope rescuers dont think that was the most stupid thought to have. If they do, they are not very understanding of the fact that how on earth would the average cat owner ('ordinary person') be as aware of the kitten situation as them.

I hope this thread helps someone out in the same situation as me, who had the same niggling questions as me.. Or maybe I am the only one 'ordinary person' who had these questions? Thank you for clarifying though furry ferals...i know you are a good advocate for cat and kitten care. I mean that furry ferals. I can remember you explaining once the work you were doing with ferals and I could only think 'God Bless this person'...so dont think I am not grateful for your reply. I am old enough and ugly enough to see why, through your experiences, you would say what you have and questioned me/commented about me (although I dont agree with the latter).

And thank you Booktigger for your informative response (and others prior to that too).
Thats all I wanted to know! And I appreciate the factual and not personal way you replied. I just wanted facts about what the problem is as opposed to a personal interrogation as to my motives for posting and a judgement as to my status as a responsible owner.

I just want people to know we (I say 'we' but should actually probably just refer to 'I' as I might be the only one..but in all honesty, i dont think i am) read on here 'there is a kitten over population problem'. period. I just wanted to know what the extent of the problem is and if its the same everywhere. Book tiggers reply (as well as others who have replied on this thread too explaining their experiences) and another members reply who quoted the number of cats euthanised in the US in another thread, just help give the 'ordinary person' a good insight into the problem. So thanks.


Im going to go hide in my shell now.
Im sorry if my post has offended anyone. If it has I shall refrain from posting as that is not my intention here.
 

booktigger

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Your welcome Minxie. In the UK it is different as we dont have kill shelters - but then, when we are full, we turn them away, so sometimes I do wonder what the difference is, as you dont know what will happen to the ones we do turn away. To be honest, I dont know that much of your personal side.I Was a very naive cat owner before I joined cat forums, they really have improved the way I take care of my cats, so as long as you have learnt from your mistakes, and are happy to continue to learn, then I dont see what the prob with fostering is - we all have to learn somehow, and I do think a lot of rescue people forget that (not aimed at anyone in particular, just a few rescue people I know, not necessarily on this forum), and seem to think that everyone should have the knowledge and experience they have, and that isn't always the case, but we should use our knowledge and experience to educate others, which is the main reason I use forums - and I might be guilty of that from time to time - I Can't understand why people have issues with clipping cats claws, it is simple!!
 

mooficat

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Originally Posted by minxie

Im going to go hide in my shell now. Im sorry if my post has offended anyone. If it has I shall refrain from posting as that is not my intention here..
Please dont feel like that I have found this thread very interesting and informative - I haven't commented as I now live in Spain and heck, you don't want to know what goes on here


I agree with Booktigger, we can all share our knowledge & experience
ain't that what TCS is about
 

devlyn

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You know, everyone makes mistakes. That's how we learn. People can give you advise and such, but often, the biggest mistakes we just have to make on our own. You can learn from that and go on, but it's very hard to when you keep getting smacked over the head with it.
I can't see someone turning you away because you made mistakes, that you have NOW learned from. There are far too many cats in need and I for one am glad that you are NOW a solution, not a problem.

One of my mistakes was in getting my kitty declawed because my mom insisted. She died from it and THAT's when I educated myself. Now I would NEVER declaw unless it were medically necessary and I can't think of a situation where it would be. Without that one, horrible mistake, I wouldn't have learned what I now know about declawing nor would I be sharing that information with others and educating them too. Good things CAN come out of bad things.

Best of luck with fostering!


Devlyn
 
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minxie

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Develyn...made me smile to read that i can be part of the solution and not a problem. Im sorry about your cat that passed due to declawing. Thats another issue Ive learned about from TCS. Its all about information, the right information presented in a way that will be absorbed by people, to be able to know whats best for our cats (oh and people (me included) actually taking that info on board!).
 

lil'misskisses

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Thank you for asking this question Minxie. It was something I was wondering about too and it has been very informative reading MOST of the replies.

You have made some mistakes (haven't we all) and have now put them right and you are doing the best you can to help the poor kitties that dont have a loving home.

I have learned a lot about cat care from the wonderful advice I have recieved here at TCS. Please dont let 1 poster make you feel bad. You have been very kind to me and I for one appreciate the advice you and others have given.

Thank you

Emma x x
 

louisa

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i have been a volunteer in many rescue homes since i was 15 years old, and what i have seen has brought many
to my eyes. there are many people that come to a rescue asking about kittens this is bettween 8weeks and 1 year but this people want an 8 week old or just over a soon as these kittens turn 6 months they are no longer wanted, i have even been told that o hes to big (and this cat was a small male), so i told them that we are very sorry but we take looking after all animals seriously and you may want a kitten but it will grow into an adult cat that will most likley be the same size or bigger than this cat, they looked at me and said ok but if we have any problems we can bring them back at any time so if we get a young kitten and it grows to big we can bring him back. Let me say this couple did not get a kitten a cat or any other pet from our facilaty. Also my time in these rescue i have come to find most cats brought in are feral ,semi feral, or small weak strays. Nobody seems to want these and they grow into adult cats in a cage and these adults are even harder to rehome as they have no idea about home life. most kittens that are born from house hold cats are sold on any way they can be including PET SHOPS (if you cant see i hate pet shops that sell these kittens and puppy most are too young to even be there and are crawling with illnesses) many of the cats that are sold end up on the street this animals become semi feral or feral depending on when the owner decideds they dont want the hassel
these kittens come in and we try our best to re habilate them but by this time they could be already into adult hood and again they are no longer wanted
its a vicious cycle that i dont thing will ever stop its on a roll and is going so fast people are jumping on and try to slow it down but are being thrown off because its too fast
many cats are dead because there is not enough people money or time to help them all, one day we will be over run with cats and dogs alike becase of stupid owners, there will be a wild cat on every corner and for every wild cat there will be 10+ kittens
i Just liked to say i dont think im an expert these are just my opinons
 

kumbulu

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Originally Posted by Panther pride

Actually snakes should be fed dead food, its more humane as they cannot get injuried.
Some snakes, reptiles and other animals won't eat dead food - they don't recognise it as food if it's not moving, has body heat or a heartbeat. If some animals aren't fed live food, they end up starving to death.

I'll say again that kittens must never be used as live food for any animal.
 

pawsandwhiskers

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Minxie, i think your questions and posts are good not bad. i think attitudes and situations will vary country to country, and all you wanted to know was how the situation is here! I wondered the same thing myself as i had never perceived the problem as being as bad here as in the US. Don't let it put you off posting. I think we all need to ask the questions or how else are we going to learn the answers! If you were irresponsible you wouldn't take your time being on here and learning loads more about cats and asking questions. We are all learning!
 

furryferals

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Originally Posted by minxie

Im going to go hide in my shell now.
Im sorry if my post has offended anyone. If it has I shall refrain from posting as that is not my intention here.
Give over Mel,I'm sure you being a legal eagle will appreciate my honesty and not take offence just as
your post and questions didn't offend me.

I've learnt a heck of a lot more since talking last year and seen that dark underbelly of rescue and IF you
do get involved in rescue although you may not see as much you certainly will hear the stories and soon
realise there is no such thing as an 'accidental' pregnancy because everybody,however much they claim
to not know is aware that a female cat can have kittens,If they do nothing to stop that happening,that is
imo irresponsible.I know you have said that your cats pregnancy was planned and that you had places
for them and I don't doubt that,but IF you do get involved in rescue you will see that the majority of
pregnancies are planned and will be passed onto friends and family and sold in the local boozer or worse
still if they have access to a local pet shop that sells kittens and they will supply them.


Most of these kittens are then discarded when the novelty has worn off and by six months old
are pregnant and giving birth in the wild which further adds to the feral cat population.I don't need to tell
you anymore about that.

I can understand you thinking there may be a difference between the UK and the rest of the worlds
overpopulation of kittens,That is because and the 'general public' don't realise this but animal welfare
charities are restricted on what they can show in tv and advertising campaigns,they have GOT to show
both the good and bad sides of rescue,they are not allowed to show how bad it really is because that
would be considered tantamount to emotional blackmail to make people part with their money.
Y'know when we are out doing cash collections we just have to stand there,we are not allowed to
'shake our can' even to attract peoples attention to the fact we are collecting because that may make
them feel guilty,So many people just walk past without even seeing us.


I know you've been considering fostering/socialising semi ferals,I wish you good luck in that, it is very
rewarding to the soul,but as with any cat but especially a feral there is no room for 'accidental' escapes
because you only ever get one chance with a feral and if it escapes,that's the last you'll ever see of it.
 

furryferals

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Originally Posted by lil'misskisses

Thank you for asking this question Minxie. It was something I was wondering about too and it has been very informative reading MOST of the replies.

You have made some mistakes (haven't we all) and have now put them right and you are doing the best you can to help the poor kitties that dont have a loving home.

I have learned a lot about cat care from the wonderful advice I have recieved here at TCS. Please dont let 1 poster make you feel bad. You have been very kind to me and I for one appreciate the advice you and others have given.

Thank you

Emma x x
That's great you have learned a lot about responsible cat care but is a shame you only find SOME of
the posts informative.I hope you have learned more about responsible cat care than you did last year
when you were here for pregnant cat advice because that is something that you will always find plenty
of here,but obviously not ALL people actually learn from their mistakes so they can't exactly expect a
pat on the back from everybody over something that is completely avoidable especially when that happens
twice.

If you haven't already you might like to visit the feral and stray forum and the cats sos forum while you
are here this time.
Here are the links


http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=9

http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=10
 
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minxie

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Furry ferals, I wouldn't have posted the reply I did if I wasnt upset by it. Whether intentionally or not, you said that these are the questions an unscrupulous breeder would ask.. implying thats the reason I am asking them. You then went on to say that im not fit to rescue as rescue organisations want responsible people..implying i'm irresponsible.

Its not a case of 'giving over' (as you say), you might have a tougher skin than me...but it isnt nice coming under attack or personal judgement in this or any forum, when all im trying to do is ask a question to be a better cat owner and I know how many people worldwide read the posts in these forums. I felt that this was a great platform for a rescuer to give a definitive, informative, intelligent, statistical and factual response to me and all out there who have questions on the extent of the kitten problem is. An opportunity to teach and get the message of all your hard work across, as opposed to personally judge and question someone. Where this information has been given ..its so insightful.

I'll refer to your reply to lilmisskisses as a further example. Forgive me if Im wrong, but I read 'subtle' (or maybe not so subtle..only lilmisskisses can be the judge of that) digging of the knife/patronising/more personal judgement about that person's cat care in the past in your reply. You KNOW what I mean here. Whatever you have said that is positive/helpful (and there is positiveness/helpfulness overall in what you are saying) is overshadowed by the way the recipient of your post is left feeling devalued and judged. If that is your way of getting your message across, if that is the way you feel after years of rescuing, if you think the person 'deserves' that and will benefit from it, well so be it. You are entitled to that. But I just want you to know how it can make some people feel. I do not see why we have to compromise human warmth, care and support in a forum to achieve the best cat care. I read somewhere on TCS 'more flies are caught with honey than vinegar'. What a great quote. It is so true.

Anyway, water under the bridge blah blah blah. Both you and I have more important things to do with our time than sit here debating what you and I say and how it comes across.

I did find the 3rd paragraph of your last reply very insightful though. This is the kind of info I'm after! I didnt realise that animal welfare organisations over here are prevented from showing the real 'bad side' of things.
 
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