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New Development in Kent State Shootings

post #1 of 15
5/2/07 at 11:15am
Thread Starter 
Yes, you read that right.

Alan Canfora, the guy who was standing the closest to the Guard when they fired and who was shot, had a press conference revealing a tape that he claims proves the guardsmen were ordered to fire.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/02/ken....ap/index.html

I don't know how I feel about this, I listened to it but I can't hear what he says is there...

But if it does say that and it is an officer... it sort of changes everything.

Thoughts?
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post #2 of 15
5/2/07 at 11:26am
I don't know how to feel about it either. I think that the FBI decided that the shooting was sort of spontaneous, and that it wasn't ordered or planned.

This could really tick off some people if it's true. And embarrass a few as well.
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post #3 of 15
5/2/07 at 11:37am
Thread Starter 
They did. I actually gave tours of the memorial and taught my orientation class this subject while I was there.

The whole reason nobody has ever been found at fault is something along the lines of "They were a bunch of stressed, tired, poorly trained 19 year olds and one of them snapped and fired or heard something that sounded like a shot or whatever, and once he fired they all fired"

If, in fact, one of their officers told them to fire, or Governor Rhodes, or whoever, then they should be in jail.

Although, let me say a little about Alan Canfora. I like him, I've met him, but he is obsessed with May 4th. In some pictures from right before the shooting, he is standing feet from the guardsmen with his middle finger up. When the police chief retired last year he published an open letter wishing that specifically Alan Canfora would get over May 4th.
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post #4 of 15
5/2/07 at 11:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
Although, let me say a little about Alan Canfora. I like him, I've met him, but he is obsessed with May 4th. In some pictures from right before the shooting, he is standing feet from the guardsmen with his middle finger up. When the police chief retired last year he published an open letter wishing that specifically Alan Canfora would get over May 4th.
BUT!!!....then again, the reason that the police chief published that wish could be, that he knew if he dug long enough, that he would find this tape??? Maybe?? Ya think???
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post #5 of 15
5/2/07 at 11:54am
Thread Starter 
Oh, don't get me wrong! I didn't mean to say he can't be right just because he is fixated on it, after all nobody else is devoting their life to figuring out what happened.

I am only saying that I take the evidence differently than I would have if, say, Yale (where the tape has been) came out with the same statement of what was said in the tape.

I would like to find a copy I can download and analyze myself, really.

Many many people did and still do believe that the students who were killed got what they deserved. They seem to forget that half the students who died had nothing to do with the protest and one was in ROTC, you should see some of the reactions I've had to that. There were ads taken out in the Kent Record Courier about "we support the national guard" on May 6 1970. And the opinion columns... and it's always been one of those shadowy facts that Nixon himself said they deserved to die for protesting his invasion of Cambodia.

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure the tape was made from my dorm in order to hear it like that... either it or its twin which has been torn down now.
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post #6 of 15
5/2/07 at 12:38pm
How could anyone "deserve" to die for protesting? I remember the whole incident, and at the time, public opinion, at least in my (liberal Republican) area, appeared to be that the National Guard overreacted to a non-threatening situation.

I can make out, "Get ready...point", but not "fire" on the tape. But who is to say that it wasn't a taunt from a protester?
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post #7 of 15
5/2/07 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
Yes, you read that right.

Alan Canfora, the guy who was standing the closest to the Guard when they fired and who was shot, had a press conference revealing a tape that he claims proves the guardsmen were ordered to fire.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/02/ken....ap/index.html

I don't know how I feel about this, I listened to it but I can't hear what he says is there...

But if it does say that and it is an officer... it sort of changes everything.

Thoughts?

I really don't know anything about this case. It happened before my time and this is the first I have ever heard of this. But I did watch the video. I did hear what they say is on there. Its kind sounds like whoever said it was a distance away from the camera. But it is there.
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post #8 of 15
5/2/07 at 1:01pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat View Post
How could anyone "deserve" to die for protesting? I remember the whole incident, and at the time, public opinion, at least in my (liberal Republican) area, appeared to be that the National Guard overreacted to a non-threatening situation.

I can make out, "Get ready...point", but not "fire" on the tape. But who is to say that it wasn't a taunt from a protester?
They did, and still do. There are times even now you can feel the resentment of the townies towards the university, not often, but it's there. TLC did a long special on it, definitely worth a watch. People also often bring up the fact that the crowd wasn't particularly nonviolent, in that they burned down the ROTC building (someone has confessed to it, and it wasn't a student) and were throwing rocks and the tear gas back at the Guard. It's hard to have decent discussions with people who think that protesters throwing rocks at people in full riot gear is reason enough for the government to kill them.

I really would like to know what room he taped it from, because I could tell you off the top of my head if it could have been a protestor or not because I know where everybody was standing. They weren't that close to each other when the firing actually started. http://www.alancanfora.com/ On his website you can see him, and he was standing way closer than anybody else.

Eta: Listened to it a few more times, and you can hear the protesters more clearly than anything else... I still don't hear it though. I do hear someone say somethign that sounds like point... and oddly something that sounds like cheering during the gunshots
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post #9 of 15
5/2/07 at 2:46pm
I just e-mailed my husband this and this is what he said: Point is not an official command. I doubt a soldier said that. A soldier would say ready, aim, fire.

I suppose it could have been a protester, or someone shouting from far away.
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post #10 of 15
5/2/07 at 5:29pm
lol as stated point is not a command , no where in my rotc, or with the army do i remember that command.

having been a student at kent and getting my degree from kent, there are of course some, issues with the students and the town. BUT THEY always fail to tell you , they had trashed down town kent the day before,

how i feel bad that students where killed and even more so for the student that where just passing though on the way to class. It really is a lesson ifor kids to learn dont throw rocks, bottles , etc at other kids with guns. you past the line of JUST protesting , when throwing items like that at other people.
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post #11 of 15
5/2/07 at 5:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
having been a student at kent and getting my degree from kent, there are of course some, issues with the students and the town. BUT THEY always fail to tell you , they had trashed down town kent the day before,
I always made a point to at least mention the riots and why the Guard was called in the first place. I don't think it makes a difference. If it were Halloween would there be the same caveats about the Guard coming?

Shouldn't it be a lesson for the military to not shoot unarmed civilians?
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post #12 of 15
5/2/07 at 6:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
I always made a point to at least mention the riots and why the Guard was called in the first place. I don't think it makes a difference. If it were Halloween would there be the same caveats about the Guard coming?

Shouldn't it be a lesson for the military to not shoot unarmed civilians?
it does make a difference, for the reason they where called, if they had been peaceful the day before there would have been no reason to call the guard.

if you throw things at people with guns, then the people with guns are going to get scared. even more so if you throw things that can hurt. At that point you can expect someone panic and to take a shot at you. it just human to protect yourself.
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post #13 of 15
5/2/07 at 6:21pm
Thread Starter 
So, they should have known they would be killed for throwing rocks, and that makes it more their fault than the people who killed them? That seems to be what you are saying.

Did the protesters do stupid things, include riot and throw rocks at the National Guard? Yes, they did.

And no, the Guard could not have been actually hurt by rocks. They were in full riot gear, and there is still debate about anybody actually hitting them with the rocks or anything else.

But this debate isn't meant to be about whether unarmed people deserved to die for throwing rocks. It's about whether you can hear anything on the tape and if it changes anything.
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post #14 of 15
5/2/07 at 7:12pm
lol i know, it just always get me, that some people always want to take the human out of the service personal lol

but no, i cant hear anything, that is all they played for my hour trip home on the radio this morning. and from the sounds of the shooting on the tape they were far away.
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post #15 of 15
5/2/07 at 7:22pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
lol i know, it just always get me, that some people always want to take the human out of the service personal lol

but no, i cant hear anything, that is all they played for my hour trip home on the radio this morning. and from the sounds of the shooting on the tape they were far away.
Yea, I always felt that the enlisted men there were secondary victims, because I can and do understand what could have happened... although many of them never did fire.

But if they were (still an if to me) commanded to do so, then that person is at serious serious fault.
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