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A note about cats who have just had kittens. - Page 3

post #61 of 82
noo i dont see nothing wrong with breeding responsibly like they do in the breeders corner.and i do not want to start a debate over that lol.
i have fostered many litters , taken in strays had them neutered etc.. iv seen the effects of what a litter does , especially when they do not make it. and when they do make it and are old enough to go to there new homes , its so rewarding when that moment comes.
i will admit however there was 1 person in the pregnant cat fourm who i did want to rage at and tell her what i thought , but i did not and still congratulated her when the babys were born. when i was reading back over it i was a bit disgusted with myself for saying them words to this person. but at the same time i was happy that the babys were healthy .
and were on the same side none of us are happy about the over population going on, and yes its so very sad to see all the time.

my fluffy is pregnant whom i have had since a 4 week old kitten because someone didnt want them no more. i had her and her brother spayed and neutered late last year , long story short they was a **** up and she is now not spayed and very pregnant , who has just gotten over a uti. so her kittens might not even make it due to all the medication she has had. but by the time she was healthy enough for the spay abort she was to late in her pregnancy for it. so now i just have to hope and pray that her and her kittens are all born safely and healthy without any problems. no im not happy about her getting pregnant and i wish there was something i could do for my baby but there isnt.
post #62 of 82
I'm in the "I don't congratulate" boat, but I don't visit the PC&K forum very often. I would think a "I'm glad the mother cat and kittens are healthy" is an appropriate response, but I don't feel comfortable congratulating someone for something I don't think should have happened in the first place. I can understand people wanting to congratulate, especially in the event of particularly difficult pregnancies or difficult situations, but I'm unlikely to do so, myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxtashaxX View Post
my fluffy is pregnant whom i have had since a 4 week old kitten because someone didnt want them no more. i had her and her brother spayed and neutered late last year , long story short they was a **** up and she is now not spayed and very pregnant , who has just gotten over a uti. so her kittens might not even make it due to all the medication she has had. but by the time she was healthy enough for the spay abort she was to late in her pregnancy for it. so now i just have to hope and pray that her and her kittens are all born safely and healthy without any problems. no im not happy about her getting pregnant and i wish there was something i could do for my baby but there isnt.
I help foster kittens and mama cats, and one of the ones I most recently worked with was a similar case: the cat was supposed to have been spayed, the vet screwed up, and the cat ended up pregnant with a very large litter. The former owner couldn't take care of a pregnant cat or the resulting kittens, and they ended up at the local Humane Society. I don't see this as being the case of an irresponsible owner -- an irresponsible vet, maybe, but not the owner.
post #63 of 82
I had a rescued kitty who I wasn't expecting to go into heat so fast get pregnant years ago. Yes, my mistake cause she got out. I let her have her babies and she had 3. I found the 2 little girls a wonderful home and kept the boy. I have tributes to them in the crossing the bridge section. Mama Mort died last June she was 18 years old. Bubba her baby was 14 1/2 when he died. Both were my soul kitties and had she not have ever had Bubba I wouldn't have had the most wonderful experience with unconditional love. If I would have aborted her babies I would never have had Bubba.....

Mort was fixed promptly after her kittens were weaned.
post #64 of 82
I am pro spay aborts. Why? Hmmm....we have 3 mothers/kittens in foster care in one home, one w/ kittens & one waiting to give birth, one more in foster care....then there are 3 with kittens at the shelter & 2 more waiting to give birth. Plus...there's my Jade, & 5 more in one other foster home. Just wanted to get that out.

I did skip the middle pages of this thread.....read the first & now last. I feel that a "neutral" comment is OK when a cat has kittens. Yes, they are healthy. But, they are only adding to overpopulation problems.

When we fixed our farm cats, I directed the vet to do spay/aborts, no matter how far along they were. I believe 5 females were spay/aborts. I think I saved those kittens from the unknown.....the unhappy shelter.....ugh I hate thinking about it.
post #65 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by white cat lover View Post
I am pro spay aborts. Why? Hmmm....we have 3 mothers/kittens in foster care in one home, one w/ kittens & one waiting to give birth, one more in foster care....then there are 3 with kittens at the shelter & 2 more waiting to give birth. Plus...there's my Jade, & 5 more in one other foster home. Just wanted to get that out.

I did skip the middle pages of this thread.....read the first & now last. I feel that a "neutral" comment is OK when a cat has kittens. Yes, they are healthy. But, they are only adding to overpopulation problems.

When we fixed our farm cats, I directed the vet to do spay/aborts, no matter how far along they were. I believe 5 females were spay/aborts. I think I saved those kittens from the unknown.....the unhappy shelter.....ugh I hate thinking about it.
It has always AMAZED me how people react to the idea of spay-aborts. When I told people who called the shelter about it, I always had to be very upset that we were forced to do it and say how bad we felt and blah, blah, blah...otherwise, they tended to look at me like I was a cold-blooded kitten-killer. Which is ironic when you consider exactly what bringing more kittens into the world does! I had to explain that we only have X number of spaces and if we performed a spay abort, we would be ensuring mom's health and possibly stopping the spread of disease (taking in strays, a lot of moms and babies carry things that we don't want running rampant around the shelter...especially a shelter with elderly and immuno-compromised cats...and you wouldn't believe how often we have to iso new admit kittens for calici), making mom a lot happier, and leaving room for the truly needy kittens that come into our door that would surely die on the streets or in a municipal shelter.

It really comes down to...shall we save the unfortunate souls who are already suffering and offer them so much needed help and comfort and prevent new lives from coming into a world that is largely ambivalent towards them? Or shall we bring new kittens into the world and be forced to ignore those who actually are desperate for our help? Babies need 24/7 care and tend to need iso cages in those early weeks. When we can give foster space to already alive kittens who really, really need it...well, let's just say it would be morally irresponsible of us to bring those kittens into the world in just about every way.
post #66 of 82
I think it is totally inappropriate to congratulate someone on contributing to the overpopulation of cats, dogs, rabbits etc.

I believe in pediatric spays and spaying while pregnant no matter if they are going to give birth tomorrow.
post #67 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I think it is totally inappropriate to congratulate someone on contributing to the overpopulation of cats, dogs, rabbits etc.

I believe in pediatric spays and spaying while pregnant no matter if they are going to give birth tomorrow.
i dont agree with this part, if they was due tomorrow , doing a spay abort the kittens will be alive ? so do you put them to sleep once there delivered?
post #68 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I think it is totally inappropriate to congratulate someone on contributing to the overpopulation of cats, dogs, rabbits etc.

I believe in pediatric spays and spaying while pregnant no matter if they are going to give birth tomorrow.
Maybe in the beginning of a pregnancy but the day before is a pretty inhuman for any animal person to say. I would take on the responsiblity, even if a momma cat came to my door tomorrow ready to give birth. I certainly wouldn't kill her babies at due date.

Many years ago I was at the vet picking up my cat from getting her teeth worked on. The next scheduled appointment was a Persian breeder who was bringing over 10 of her cats in to be euthanized because she overbred. My heart almost fell to the floor. I will never forget that day. Thank god she had not showed up yet when I left. Not all breeders are responsible either.....

All of my cats are fixed and neutered, and indoor cats.
post #69 of 82
Bah, I'm sort of on the fence about this thread, I'll admit.

Many have spotted me in the PC & KC forums (I visit it daily)...and I'll admit to being guilty of congratulating members on their new litters. I guess my intention in the congratulatory message was NOT to encourage and promote more litters and kittens being born, but rather to congratulate the member on HEALTHY kittens and mother cat. Perhaps that's something I need to keep in mind in the future, in terms of how I need to be using that particular forum. Because in my heart, I know how WRONG it is to allow these cats to give birth to kittens...and when I read of a new expectant mother cat (it happens on a daily basis this time of year on the PC & KC forum), it does leave me with a sour taste in my mouth.

I am entirely pro-spay and neuter. It is wrong to allow cats to breed incessantly as we currently do in our country (the US), and across the world. We have a responsibility to animals...the knowledge we possess of the cat overpopulation problem is heartbreaking, and it is a problem only we as humans can prevent through responsible ownership, and caring ENOUGH to do what needs to be done. Rather than breeding our cats further and creating more unwanted life, we need to focus on the lives being held captive in shelters and rescue organizations, and the thousands euthanized daily...the lives that never knew the blessing and joys of a real home.

Having said all of that, I have been known to jump on people who need to spay and neuter. I know it's not the most persuasive or congenial approach, but I've seen far too many newer members who KNOW what needs to be done, and will come up with every reason NOT to do it, and the truth is, is that these are the people who will only listen to what they want to hear...anything else offends them, and they close their minds to any option out of their original line of thinking. This is when I become rather pissy. People need to stop with the excuses, visit their local humane society, open their ears, and face the music. Since I feel strongly on this issue, I do often opt out of responding to posts that list excuses for not speutering...I let my emotions on the subject get the better of me.

Each and every year (this year included), the PC & KC forum becomes sadly divided 3 ways. One half of the posts are birth announcements...one fourth are the "Help me! I found a pregnant stray/ I found abandoned kittens / How far along is my pregnant cat? / Is my cat pregnant?" posts, the other fourth being "Help me! Something's wrong with my kittens! /One of the kittens is gone/ My kittens are dying!" posts.

There would be a lot less tragedy to report if people only took the time to spay and neuter. Kittens wouldn't be homeless and/or dying, if they weren't being born in the first place.
post #70 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by abbycats View Post
Maybe in the beginning of a pregnancy but the day before is a pretty inhuman for any animal person to say. I would take on the responsiblity, even if a momma cat came to my door tomorrow ready to give birth. I certainly wouldn't kill her babies at due date.
From what I hear, and this could be TOTALLY wrong, but I think the idea is that the entire organ is removed...not individual kittens, i.e. a C-section. So they're not pulling live kittens out and I've never heard of a close-to-delivery spay-abort where kittens have survived on their own. But I wasn't a clinic tech...so I'm relying entirely on anecdotes and hearsay.
post #71 of 82
Great siggie Lioness.
post #72 of 82
Years ago when I first had a pregnant cat dumped on me I went looking for help/advice. I don't/didn't want "congrats" or even "Spay now you filthy person. How dare you allow (that always got me) that cat to have kittens!". Honestly, all I wanted was help. I can't even tell you how many "pet" boards I had been to before she gave birth that was either hurtful, nagging, or all too happy about the litter. Needless to say, I never went back to those places. I can understand a "congrats on a healthy litter and a healthy mom" comments but not just "Congrats". Being the person I was, I would take the plain old "congrats" as Hey, it's ok to have litters upon litters. But if there's actual help thrown in with the congrats, it'd be a different story. I used to tell people "Congrats on a healthy litter and healthy mom. Now, don't forget to call your vet to find out when you can get her spayed. You really don't want her having kittens upon kittens because it'll harm her health and possibly kill her." Yea, I got banned from that place for that post. Apperently, I was "hounding" and not "supportive." Although that's what I would've liked to hear.
post #73 of 82
Since this is posted in IMO, here's my opinion:

Moggies should never be purposefully bred, period. Nearly every person posting about a pregnant queen or a litter of new kittens in the PC & KC forums is refering to a Moggie.
Should these people be supported and congratulated and made to feel welcome?.........absolutely. In the same breath they should be educated in a kind friendly manner about spay/neuter. Negativity and beratement just drive people away from the site and they don't get the opportunity to see that people here really care about cat welfare, put cats first and genuinely care about not only their own cats, but the cats belonging to other members.

What is "wrong" is that these female cats were allowed to breed in the first place. It is not wrong to allow the ones who are pregnant to come to term and deliver. I don't believe in late term spay/abort.

There are all sorts of reasons people come to have a pregnant cat in their midst. Every situation is unique and not everyone can be lumped into the irresponsible pet owner category. This has to be dealt with on a case by case basis.

These people can be supported and given encouragement, advice and direction without being exposed to the standard diatribe of some of the more outspoken members of TCS. The emotional retorts only result in alienation and are completely counterproductive to what is ultimately trying to be accomplished.

More flys are caught with honey than with vinegar.
post #74 of 82
i read some threads in the PC forum, but very rarely post (and if so, normally to try and encourage spays) - I can't congratulate people on having kittens sadly, there is an overpopulation problem, and I can't be happy at yet more kittens being brought into the world - esp when you visit a rescue, meet some lovely kittens and then the week after be told they have died. I personally believe in abort and spay, I do think it is better to let them go before being born than trying to find homes for another 2-8 cats - yep, our kittens go no prob - but we have had an 8 year old in since last Oct, we finally have someone looking at her this weekend. We also have 3 adults in at the moment, and if we have no kittens, we do quite well at convincing people to consider a young adult instead, but as soon as we have kittens, we lose that. i also think that paediatric spay/neuter is the only way we are going to tackle the overpopulation prob - no more cats getting out of the house in heat, or people forgetting to spay - as my RSPCA branch say, you have a 100% success rate by doing it.
post #75 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals View Post

More flys are caught with honey than with vinegar.
I like that statement - so true !!!!
post #76 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrissyR View Post
Years ago when I first had a pregnant cat dumped on me I went looking for help/advice. I don't/didn't want "congrats" or even "Spay now you filthy person. How dare you allow (that always got me) that cat to have kittens!". Honestly, all I wanted was help. I can't even tell you how many "pet" boards I had been to before she gave birth that was either hurtful, nagging, or all too happy about the litter. Needless to say, I never went back to those places. I can understand a "congrats on a healthy litter and a healthy mom" comments but not just "Congrats". Being the person I was, I would take the plain old "congrats" as Hey, it's ok to have litters upon litters. But if there's actual help thrown in with the congrats, it'd be a different story. I used to tell people "Congrats on a healthy litter and healthy mom. Now, don't forget to call your vet to find out when you can get her spayed. You really don't want her having kittens upon kittens because it'll harm her health and possibly kill her." Yea, I got banned from that place for that post. Apperently, I was "hounding" and not "supportive." Although that's what I would've liked to hear.
That's a great post. Nobody who is against `congratulating' is advocating given these people are hard time, either. Well, I'm certainly not. I don't feel the need to congratulate people for having a healthy litter. I might say I'm pleased the kittens were healthy, or that I'm glad they were born alive, but I'd still never congratulate anyone even for that purpose alone. To me, that takes away from the message of welfare.

That doesn't mean that I'd jump down people's throats in this situation either. I am on a dog forum that is pretty full on towards people in those situations and it never helps, it always drives them away. Even the people I meet who need my help to train their dogs - I never give them a hard time or make them feel bad for the sometimes completely unbelievably idiotic things they do. After all, they have sought help because they need help. Not because they need me to run them down.

BUT I do try to educate at every opportunity. After all, prevention is worth a pound of cure. Nial was absolutely right - you do catch more flies with honey than vinegar, but the point is, catching flies is what you want to be doing. I would never alienate a poster who came to a forum with pregnant cat/dog etc, I would be friendly and welcoming and helpful. BUT I wouldn't congratulate them either. It's not a party and nobody's done anything worthy of congratulations, even if their kittens/puppies are born healthy. To me, that's not the issue and not what should be the focus.
post #77 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by abbycats View Post
Maybe in the beginning of a pregnancy but the day before is a pretty inhuman for any animal person to say. I would take on the responsiblity, even if a momma cat came to my door tomorrow ready to give birth. I certainly wouldn't kill her babies at due date.
I wish we had with a shelter cat. I wanted her spayed, but we knew she was due within days. She had 4 kittens. One was deformed & incapable of breathing & of course there was no vet around. One more was dead the next morning. I honestly don't see any of them surviving, but we will give them the chance. She should've been spayed & saved those kittens from dying within 12 hours after being born.
post #78 of 82
im sorry that has happend, but no one would have known the outcome , they could have been very healthy kittens. imo i think it is inhuman and a bit heartless to WANT to proform a spay abort so close to a delivery unless there was evidence there was something wrong , or for the health of the mum.
post #79 of 82
I completely understand that people have strong feelings on the matter, but I think it takes a lot away from those who come to the PC&KC forum looking for friendly, welcoming advice and suggestion. I don't often post congratulatory-type messages other than to say "congrats on a smooth and uneventful delivery" or something to that effect, but honestly, I don't see how saying something like this is at all encouraging people to allow their cats to have kittens. I stand by what I said previously ... If you aren't comfortable posting congrats, then don't. If you ARE comfortable posting in this way, then do. Plain and simple.

I have spent a LOT of time at my local kill shelter and with the local humane society. In fact, the former director of the local Humane Society is a good friend of mine. I saw the ramifications of the pet overpopulation crisis daily and yet I didn't become so terribly jaded that my feelings about new life ended up clouded with anger and yes, even disgust at the thought of kittens being born. I am certainly not saying that people who do feel this way are wrong about it, everyone is entitled to their own opinions on it, but I just think that the rescue folks need to step back for a moment, take a deep breath and understand that not everything has such a dark underbelly. There are far more people who come into the forum who are fostering a pregnant cat, placed there by a shelter or rescue than there are those who have an accidental or "ooops" pregnancy ... how does not being friendly and welcoming to that person change what the rescue or shelter did when they chose not to spay/abort that cat in the first place? In many cases, it isn't the person's decision - it was up to the agency who placed the cat with them.

It is pretty much a matter of public record that I am not at all supportive of spay/abort once the queen has reached a certain term in the pregnancy. I see no difference in aborting full- or close-to-full-term kittens or euthanizing them after they are born ... the end-game is the same - dead kittens. And to those of you who would respond by saying that dead cats don't reproduce, please don't. If the goal is NOT to euthanize, but to place cats and kittens in loving homes as it should be, then this is not a valid arguement. If all shelters or rescues would adopt an across-the-board policy to spay/neuter all pets before they are placed, that would help. If all pet owners would adopt a responsible pet ownership policy, that would help even more. But the facts that we currently have to work with are not going to do much if anything at all towards reducing the pet overpopulation crisis. So why not just try to be friendly and helpful to the people who are trying to do the right thing by coming here seeking help instead of offering that help in such a dry, stale way? Even the few examples posted in this thread of what might be helpful advice without being celebratory are, at best, chilly in nature and most people tend to "read between the lines". I think they would get the message soon enough that they aren't genuinely welcomed here if we all simply said things like, "Welcome to TCS, this is what you should do yadda yadda yadda" or "Welcome to TCS, kittens need to be treated in this way yadda yadda yadda." The way I see it, sharing in the joy of the safe delivery of kittens is just putting ourselves back onto the human side of dealing with people. To offer advice is great, but to temper it with some human compassion and kindness is the winning ticket for everyone concerned. As the Moderator of the PC&KC forum, I welcome each and every member's assistance and help with new folks, but not at the risk of losing that person because they were made to feel in any way that they are not sincerely welcomed there. If you want to be helpful, great! Come on in, get a cup of your favorite beverage, smoke 'em if you got 'em and help all you want to ... but remember that you are dealing with a person who has feelings and those feelings are easily hurt. The people who come into the forum looking for help are a lot like the pregnant cats they are assisting; they tend to be hormonal and easily upset. We have to remember that and act accordingly. The PC&KC forum was designed to be a safe and comfortable place to seek advice and help - in fact, we are one of the ONLY sites on the web who offers this to people - and the forum gets heavy traffic. So not only are those new folks posting, but there are tons more lurking behind the scenes, reading. We have lots of opportunities to be nice, helpful, sincere in sharing their joy, AND in making sure the message of responsible cat care is delivered.

I know that the PC&KC forum is controversial and that a lot of people feel it has no place on a website devoted to responsible cat care. But the sad fact is that cats DO get pregnant, despite our best intentions towards the contrary. I think it would be irresponsible NOT to have such a forum, where we can help them get through and then see to it that they act responsibly once the process has come full-circle. And being that we have this avenue, we can get the message out to others that acting responsibly is what we advocate here at TCS. Our message is that we'll help you out of this jam, but let's not repeat it or place our cats in a position where it can happen again and again and again.
post #80 of 82
Gayef, You are awesome!! I agree with you 100%.
post #81 of 82
Gaye...top medal for that post. You are a wonderful moderator for the PC & K forum. You promote responsible pet ownership and also have a compassion and warmth.

I know the PC & K has to deal with some tough issues and get some serious messages across. But the camaraderie and caring for other members and each others cats, as reflected in your attitude Gaye, within the forum is what makes it a very special place on the TCS Site.

Please no-one misrepresent my words and think that just because the PC & K forum is made a supportive/friendly place that this encourages people to have kittens! On the contrary, it encourages people to see the light and do what is right. Me, included.
post #82 of 82
Quote:
If all shelters or rescues would adopt an across-the-board policy to spay/neuter all pets before they are placed, that would help. If all pet owners would adopt a responsible pet ownership policy, that would help even more.
I agree wholeheartedly with the first statement because I believe the second one is wishful thinking. :\\

I also wanted to say that I agree about not berating/nagging/guilting people who post about litters of unplanned kittens. I run a saltwater forum, and we get a lot of uninformed newbies who post things like "I've got a 10-gallon aquarium with two purple tangs and ten damsels and five clownfish, can anyone tell me why my fish are dying?!?" - the second people start lecturing (well-meaning or not), they get defensive and leave, and guess what? Their fish are still dying. I imagine the results are similar with unplanned kittens.
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