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Other people's views on not de-clawing - Page 2

post #31 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anakat View Post
This is not a thing that ever arises in the UK, it is Illegal here.
Same in Australia.

I hadn't even heard of it until I moved to Canada, someone mentioned it so I researched the topic. I was disgusted to say the least.
post #32 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2dogmom View Post
I think that is the heart of it. Ok I am a hard core dog person and not really a cat person so my feelings on this are not as strong as most of the members here.
I am also a landlord and frankly am sick and tired of cats-more so than dogs. I have spent many hours steam cleaning carpets to get the cat pee smell out, and replaced banisters that were clawed to the point of total ugliness. The sad fact is, a lot of renters have the attitude that if they don't own the place, why should they bother to take care of it.

But getting back to the REAL topic, there is this mystique about cats being untrainable, and I get the feeling that cat people think this is something to be PROUD of (like cats are too fine to do what humans want, while dogs are all these people-pleasing, slobbering oafs). Well IMO cats are regarded in a way similar to toy breeds of dogs. Some people think it's "cute" when a small dog yaps, jumps, and is obnoxious, while a large dog would never get away with it. So us owners of larger dogs tend to be more careful about training them (and sometimes get annoyed at owners of the smaller, yappier breeds)

I am amazed at what people will put up with from cats-peeing all over the place, jumping on tables and counters. I don't and my cat does not do this. Maybe he is a saint, I don't know. But this attitude of "cats can and should do whatever they want and that is what makes them so COOL" is IMO causing a large part of the problem.
Firstly, I have seen much more damage done by dogs (especially puppies) than cats and that's the honest truth. Responsible (and I stress responsible) cat owners don't believe that there is an untrainable mystique and are proud of it as you put it. Most educated cat owners know that when a cat pees in an inappropriate place, they most often have a urinary tract infection and need to see a vet. But there are those folks that say they can't afford to take the cat to the vet - perhaps those were some of your renters.

It does indeed sound as though you have a saint of a cat that doesn't jump up on counters or on the table. My little devils do both but what can I do, I just happen to love them anyway. But at least they aren't declawed, get their nails clipped about every 10 days and have a lovely scratching post they adore so no clawed furniture.
post #33 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anakat View Post
This is not a thing that ever arises in the UK, it is Illegal here.


Here, cats have claws. If you have an aversion to claws you don't get a cat and you don't handle cats.

My mum is an animal lover but she's not keen on cats. She say's that 'they are like roses - pretty to look at but sharp to touch' which is certainly one way of looking at it, but I do feel that's the way it should be
post #34 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2dogmom View Post
I think that is the heart of it. Ok I am a hard core dog person and not really a cat person so my feelings on this are not as strong as most of the members here.
I am also a landlord and frankly am sick and tired of cats-more so than dogs. I have spent many hours steam cleaning carpets to get the cat pee smell out, and replaced banisters that were clawed to the point of total ugliness. The sad fact is, a lot of renters have the attitude that if they don't own the place, why should they bother to take care of it.

But getting back to the REAL topic, there is this mystique about cats being untrainable, and I get the feeling that cat people think this is something to be PROUD of (like cats are too fine to do what humans want, while dogs are all these people-pleasing, slobbering oafs). Well IMO cats are regarded in a way similar to toy breeds of dogs. Some people think it's "cute" when a small dog yaps, jumps, and is obnoxious, while a large dog would never get away with it. So us owners of larger dogs tend to be more careful about training them (and sometimes get annoyed at owners of the smaller, yappier breeds)

I am amazed at what people will put up with from cats-peeing all over the place, jumping on tables and counters. I don't and my cat does not do this. Maybe he is a saint, I don't know. But this attitude of "cats can and should do whatever they want and that is what makes them so COOL" is IMO causing a large part of the problem.
First of all, I've seen PLENTY of damage done by dogs...how about chewing those banisters..or shos..or pillows...or digging in the landscaping. It really comes down to apathetic, lazy owners...not the animal in question or which body parts get to remain intact. We don't de-tooth dogs, yet they can absolutely reek havoc with those chewing needs. Scratching is a NEED, just like chewing, and serves a function, just like chewing.

If a cat is peeing outside the box, it's a MEDICAL, not behavioral issue. Cats instintually, as you know, use litterboxes. They are not like dogs who require direction in finding an appropirate place to eliminate, as dogs do not have the same needs "in the wild" to cover their tracks...being wolf-descendents, they are the hunter, not the hunted. If you were coming across a lot of cat pee...that's, in the vast majority of cases, simply the irresponsibility of the owner in not providing medical care and immediately soaking the area with an enzyme cleaner...it has nothing whatsoever to do with formal training.

As far as "training" cats....well, they DON'T respond to command training the way dogs do. Cats ARE basically self-cenetered and opportunistic...what a responsible owner will do to curb behaviors is to provide an attractive alternative and to make the original behavior as inhospitable as possible. If you don't want a cat on the counter, apply double-sided tape. If you rely on commands to teach them, I can guarantee you beyond the shadow of a doubt that there are cats on your counters when you're not home (opportunistic). You will never be able to put a cat in a sit-stay and trust them, for example, is what I'm getting at. And it doesn't make cats cooler than dogs, it makes the different. Although I personally am a cat person and think they're cooler than dogs for other reasons I also let them up on counters and tables because I can clean them before and after I eat, and because cats have an instinctual need to climb, jump and be up high. As indoor cats in an apartment, I'm not going to prevent them from a single shred of space in an already small domocile. Plus, it doesn't strike me as being gross, provided I have my little wipeys handy.

Ok. Back to your originally scheduled thread.

Ian's mom today had a coworker who had a vet do a "bait and switch" on her, where they offered her the declaw with the speuter like "would you like fries with that?" and AFTER the surgery told her about the risks, medically and behaviorally they now face. If that's not a vet that is in it for the money, I don't know what is. Why are these people even allowed to practice?
post #35 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionessrampant View Post
...Ok. Back to your originally scheduled thread.

Ian's mom today had a coworker who had a vet do a "bait and switch" on her, where they offered her the declaw with the speuter like "would you like fries with that?" and AFTER the surgery told her about the risks, medically and behaviorally they now face. If that's not a vet that is in it for the money, I don't know what is. Why are these people even allowed to practice?
THAT is disgraceful!
post #36 of 51
Come on everyone - 2DogMom wasn't saying that these are HER attitudes towards cats, but that they are the attitudes of some of the people she's come across in her dealings as a landlord.

Our landlord wouldn't allow our cats either, but had no problem with our two large destructive puppies. That's why the cats are living at Mum's until we move in two months.

In my work as a trainer I have found that you can very easily apply the principles of training dogs to training cats. It's harder, and takes more time, but it can be done. Cats can, do and will respond to commands and will perform basic obedience - again, it just takes longer and is a bit harder to train them, but it doesn't mean they can't be trained. Any animal that is a creature of habit, dog, cat, bird, dolphin - all animals are and especially cats - can be trained.

The thing is, formal training is very rarely required with cats. They are given free reign much more than dogs, due to their very nature. They are independent and they do tend to do whatever they want. To me that's a big part of their appeal. But you can certainly train them not to scratch your furniture or get up on benches etc. And it's pretty easy, too.

One of my cats knows a number of tricks and commands - I clicker-trained her - same way I did with my dogs. I chose her to train because she is very food-motivated, and that really helps. She will sit, drop, spin, kiss, touch, speak and `shake' on command. She loves it! It's very stimulating mentally for her, too.

Again, though, people don't `train' their cats mostly because a) they think it can't be done, and b) they don't really need to to make them `liveable' like you have to with dogs!
post #37 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
In my work as a trainer I have found that you can very easily apply the principles of training dogs to training cats. It's harder, and takes more time, but it can be done.
I've had this discussion with 3 dog trainers, one of them being Jan Fennell (I don't think she believed me but I hope I planted a seed). It always amuses me when people with such obvious knowledge of one species have a difficult time transferring that knowledge to another.

But then I met a dog trainer once that was having a terrible time with her cats clawing her furniture (she was new to cats). I asked her what she did to housebreak puppies and asked her why she didn't use that same level of dilligence to redirect her cats to a scratch post. I saw the light bulb go on and it was wonderful.

Sorry, went on a little tangent but tried to steer it back to claws!
post #38 of 51
I never knew much about declawing until I joined TCS and read about it. Mainly because it just isnt done in the UK. Having read the problems declawing causes to cats, I dont know why people still consider it if they truly love their cats.

There are ways of controlling scratching....as most of us know...

sisal based products and trimming if its affecting carpets/furniture and furniture protection on sofas...or feliway/behaviour retraining if its clawing humans. Oh and soft paws too.

I personally accept that with 7 cats things (inlcuding my legs) might get the odd scratch. It comes with the territory. Fortunately its not a problem for me as the cats usually prefer to stick to scratch the cat tree and I do trim their claws.
post #39 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momofmany View Post
I've had this discussion with 3 dog trainers, one of them being Jan Fennell (I don't think she believed me but I hope I planted a seed). It always amuses me when people with such obvious knowledge of one species have a difficult time transferring that knowledge to another.
Jan Fennell was one of the people who inspired me to get into training. Once I did, I realised that while she has some very wonderful ideas, she has pretty much accidentally happened onto something with her behaviour ideas. She is all about dominance and hierarchy and pack, and whilst these are all relevant, mostly what she accidentally hit on with a lot of her training is that animals operate on a much more elementary level than humans, although the principles I use work on humans too! A lot of her theories are not really that sound, although I don't deny that she has done some incredible work and she really does have some very good basics that I recommend for all who have a dog.

But, she probably didn't believe you because her theories don't apply to all animals - they only apply to dogs and that's really only by chance.

Basically, if a behaviour pays off, the animal will continue to do it. If it doesn't, the animal won't. That basic premise is the underlying basis for all of my training and will work for all animals, regardless of species. Action/consequence/shape of behaviour. If you can work out what will motivate an animal you can train it to do anything. It's really that simple, and that's why it works for cats, too.

Anyway, no more hijacking - just wanted to add that! That very simple premise will also apply to stopping a cat from scratching up your furniture. Once they learn a habit, it's extremely unnatural and difficult for them to unlearn it - so, unlike humans, once a behaviour is learnt it pretty much sticks. This applies to dogs, guinea pigs, fish, horses - and very definitely cats.
post #40 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2dogmom View Post
I am also a landlord and frankly am sick and tired of cats-more so than dogs. I have spent many hours steam cleaning carpets to get the cat pee smell out, and replaced banisters that were clawed to the point of total ugliness. The sad fact is, a lot of renters have the attitude that if they don't own the place, why should they bother to take care of it.
i had a friend with that attitude. i'm pretty sure her LL never rented to pet owners again. between her cats and dogs, the place was trashed. 2 different places now that i think of it. i run into that attitude a lot from landlords. i understand their viewpoint. i know how most of my acquaintances with pets treat their apartments.

i wouldn't want to declaw a cat. but having adopted already declawed cats has allowed us to live in much nicer places. plus a pet resume & recommendations when meeting landlords helps too.

back to the main topic: my MIL surprised me. when she adopted her current cat a couple years ago, she didn't have him declawed. the cat she had before that was declawed, but i think that's something she thought was just part of having a cat. that had been her first cat & she didn't know any better.

i grew up with clawed cats, and my first experience with declawed cats was when my family adopted an 8-yr old 4-paw declawed cat. i don't believe in it, but i have no problem adopting cats who are already declawed and need a home. my experience has taught me 99% of people think there's something "wrong" with *any* adult cat at a shelter. declawed or not. personality, not lack of claws, determined my adoption of the 3 kitties i have. the guy i got raven and nabu from kept saying they were declawed before i agreed to take them. i told him only cared that they were fixed!
post #41 of 51
im in the uk and never hear about declawing here as it is banned. so i dont have to put up with people asking me why they are not declawed , im 100% aginst it.
post #42 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by catloverin_ks View Post
I have only had one cat declawed!! Of course that was way back when before I knew any better. I also have a friend though that always has her cats declawed because her furniture is too nice and they love to destoy it(in her words of course)

As far as ever having people question me on it, I cant think of anything....
I to had one of my cats declawed before I realized the cruelty of . She was very aggressive and shredded everything, at the time it made it ok for me to have her declawed, but it wasn't right . I think that people who declaw just because are misfit pet owners and probably parents as well! It is easier in their eyes to physically alter and avoid time and training, give and take, which is all a part of the loving relationship with our pets. These are the same people who take other short cuts in the road of life as well, boarding schools for their children, plastic surgery...........(except those true cases)
post #43 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2dogmom View Post
I am also a landlord and frankly am sick and tired of cats-more so than dogs. I have spent many hours steam cleaning carpets to get the cat pee smell out, and replaced banisters that were clawed to the point of total ugliness. The sad fact is, a lot of renters have the attitude that if they don't own the place, why should they bother to take care of it.

You say the tenants don't care about the property - are you SURE it is the cats that are peeing in the wrong place and not the tenants?

Seriously though, that is not on, that people should trash your property whether they do it themselves or let their pets do it.

As far as declawing goes, I'd find it hard to justify even if it was legal here; as has been said, if you don't want a pet that has claws, don't get a cat!
post #44 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by millyanddaisy View Post
You say the tenants don't care about the property - are you SURE it is the cats that are peeing in the wrong place and not the tenants?

Seriously though, that is not on, that people should trash your property whether they do it themselves or let their pets do it.

As far as declawing goes, I'd find it hard to justify even if it was legal here; as has been said, if you don't want a pet that has claws, don't get a cat!

I've seen human children that do a lot more damage to a property than a pet ever could. Stain spills on carpet, coloring on the walls, teenagers that destroy taking door off by themselves, etc.
post #45 of 51
I get that ALOT. It seems around here that it is the norm to declaw, and people are surprised to hear that Trout isn't declawed.

To be honest, as often as it happens..I do say that I would never declaw a cat, but getting into the big debate every time is very draining. Especially because I am the "crazy" one.

Actually anytime I meet a declawed kitty, I feel very badly for it
post #46 of 51
Don't you love that? When it's you who is the crazy one out of a bunch of people with no idea?

I had this awful guy at the dog park say to me the other day `why did you get your dogs spayed? Look how beautiful they are. Don't you know how much money you could have made out of them if they'd had puppies?'

He just DID NOT GET that making money out of my dogs was purely the last thing I was interested in. He didn't get it. He kept arguing with me. After a while I gave up on the whole thing because he wouldn't hear it - didn't want to know it. To him, dogs were for producing litters so you could get some cash. Period. Sickening.
post #47 of 51
I didn't really know about declawing cats until I took in Marishka. I don't think it's because I never heard about it, I think it just never came up. My sister asked me if I was going to do it when I first got Marishka, and I said I didn't know. I looked it up online and was appalled.
I think what surprises me the most, to this day, is my veterinarian. My cat's vet was actually my avian vet first. She happened to treat dogs and cats, so since she was a great vet for my birds, and takes the holistic approach first, I figured she'd be a great cat doctor, as well. In the appoitment before Mari was spayed, she asked if I wanted her declawed. I almost fainted, because I couldn't believe she did it to other cats. I still love her as a vet for my animals...but a little bit of me still is kinda dissapointed.

On a sort of related note, I do remember when I was little finding out how my beloved doberman pinscher got her ears cropped and her tail docked. When my dad got her for me, I was only 6, so it's not like he asked me, "Do you want the nice lady to cut Jessy's ears and tail short?" They just did it. When I finally learned about the procedure when I was older, I cried. I still feel bad, even after Jessy has passed on...It's just this widely accepted practice that happens to be painful and a lot of times scarring, unnecessarily. So why would I do something like that (the declawing process) to my cat (or any other animal?)
post #48 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trouts mom View Post
I get that ALOT. It seems around here that it is the norm to declaw, and people are surprised to hear that Trout isn't declawed.

To be honest, as often as it happens..I do say that I would never declaw a cat, but getting into the big debate every time is very draining. Especially because I am the "crazy" one.
that's so weird. i get the oppposite reaction. my cats are declawed (not by me) and usually *i* am the weird one with declawed cats. in my family there is only one other person with declawed cats. but she wanted it done. and i only have one friend who declawed a cat. she thought he needed to be declawed because their older cat had been done (by a previous owner). she regrets it now.
post #49 of 51
As other UKers have said, it's banned over here so I've never been asked that question. In fact, most people over here have never heard of declawing and have no idea what it is or that some people do that to their cats. I consider that a blessing as I'm sure there are some who would think it a good idea if they knew such a procedure was possible

I've never had any problem with scratching but I do have lots of scratching posts. The arm of the sofa is clicked a bit from Mosi playing on it, but that just comes with territory imo, esp with a kitten. If you don't want the claws don't get the paws, I say.
post #50 of 51
A few people have questioned me on it but I just tell them Limerick didn't need it.
post #51 of 51
When I first got Sweetie my plan was to get her declawed. Then I read what was involved and said no way. The same with Juno. Sweetie did ruin a wicker clothes hamper but I just turned it around and now she's working on the other side. I have a Turbo scratcher, a hanging scratcher, a scratching post and one of those carboard scratchers. She won't use any of them. My daughter and I keep her front claws trimmed. She only scratched me once. I was reaching to turn off the alarm at the same time she was jumping on the night stand. My co-workers couldn't understand why I did not have her declawed. I think its cruel and unnecessary. Juno uses the scratchers like a good kitty. One of my co-workers is going to have his cat declawed. I can't talk him out of it. He has been taking his cat out into the yard and then wondered why she went through the screen to get out. My cats are strictly inside, though when I got them they had been outside cats. I think declawing should be illegal here in the U.S. like it is in the UK.
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