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Without immigrants, population in big cities would decrease

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/05/met....ap/index.html

Silly question, but with all the talk of global warming and how bad big city living is to the environment, would this really be a bad thing if the population did decrease? I just don't understand how this is an argument to keep letting (illegal) immigrants in the country?
post #2 of 22
Quit being so darn sensible V.
post #3 of 22
I keep hoping that natural selection will do its thing. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be working within the human population.

And I agree, with the current drain on limited natural resources, we just can't continue to support population growth.

I still think that we should be TNRing humans, too.
post #4 of 22
The argument is weak, period.
Actually, I doubt that big city living is so bad for the environment, if you're talking a NY-type, and not an LA-type of city. City inhabitants generally have much smaller dwellings, and thus use, per capita, less energy to heat or cool their homes, and are more apt to walk, ride bikes, or use public transportation than somebody out in the suburbs.
post #5 of 22
Actually, living in the city is GOOD for the environment. Sprawl is what's bad. Sprawl causes you to drive more. Sprawl also causes you to deforest. Less sprawl = less cars. Also, cities are jumping on the sustainability bandwagon on a different level. Build a green house, you are housing 5 people. Build a green apartment building, you're housing hundreds in a sustainable community.

http://www.laweekly.com/general/feat...ung-green/688/

And yes, if there were no immigrants in cities, they would be smaller. And we would have no one willing to work certain jobs and the cost of living would be even higher than it is now. Plus, (and more importantly), you'd have a human rights CRISIS on your hands.
post #6 of 22
I would hate to live in Mexico City, I have heard that the smog is horrible.
post #7 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb View Post
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/05/met....ap/index.html

Silly question, but with all the talk of global warming and how bad big city living is to the environment, would this really be a bad thing if the population did decrease? I just don't understand how this is an argument to keep letting (illegal) immigrants in the country?
I fail to see the argument also. This is a sore topic for me. I'm all for immigration but LEGAL immigration. I really resent it when there is an illegal immigrant raid and you hear on the news: "I was just sitting at home with my baby and they just came and took me away and I wasn't commiting a crime." Uhhhh, yes you were. You entered the country ILLEGALLY! That's a crime.... And then probably stole (bought) a legal residents I.D.! Last I checked, that was a crime too!
post #8 of 22
I'm in Pittsburgh, second highest population loss to New Orleans (and they have an excuse...). Most everyone I work with takes the bus, and we used to live close enough to the grocery store to walk. People here don't drive out of the city often; even going one neighborhood over is a big deal. Everything is close. Plus, more people means better amenities like recycling programs and community areas.

I never thought I could live in a city, having grown up in the suburbs. However, I kind of like it. Yeah, my yard is smaller than my parents'. But I have a HUGE park 5 minutes away, community tennis courts and a swimming pool (NOT a country club, it's actually free for the residents of the borough). And since everything's so close, even when we do drive, it's not far and not on the freeway. A lot of people by hybrids because a small hybrid is great for city living (we're getting one soon!) I actually have seen a lot of hybrids here, odd for a midwest town.

It's really sad to see boarded up homes. There are entire neighborhoods here that are dead. They close schools every year. That's the worst. It's so sad to drive past the boarded up high school nearby.

As far as legal v. illegal, part of the problem is that it's HARD to be a legal immigrant. We need the people; we need workers in our factories and people to rebuild neighborhoods and make them alive again. I'm all for enforcing stricter laws on illegals, but ONLY when we can make it easier for them to be legal. A legal resident can take a legitimate job. They pays taxes, they purchase homes, and they send their kids to the local school. I don't understand why we have such a problem making it easier for people come into the country. Obviously we need the people, and if they're legal, we get a lot more good out of them. When we can do that much, then it makes sense to reopen discussions about what to do with the illegal immigrants.

(plug for pittsburgh: 125K gets you a nice 3 bedroom house in a safe neighborhood that's close to everything. I had a friend who got a townhouse for 60K. Beat that.)
post #9 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by bab-ush-niik View Post
I'm in Pittsburgh, second highest population loss to New Orleans (and they have an excuse...). Most everyone I work with takes the bus, and we used to live close enough to the grocery store to walk. People here don't drive out of the city often; even going one neighborhood over is a big deal. Everything is close. Plus, more people means better amenities like recycling programs and community areas.

I never thought I could live in a city, having grown up in the suburbs. However, I kind of like it. Yeah, my yard is smaller than my parents'. But I have a HUGE park 5 minutes away, community tennis courts and a swimming pool (NOT a country club, it's actually free for the residents of the borough). And since everything's so close, even when we do drive, it's not far and not on the freeway. A lot of people by hybrids because a small hybrid is great for city living (we're getting one soon!) I actually have seen a lot of hybrids here, odd for a midwest town.

It's really sad to see boarded up homes. There are entire neighborhoods here that are dead. They close schools every year. That's the worst. It's so sad to drive past the boarded up high school nearby.

As far as legal v. illegal, part of the problem is that it's HARD to be a legal immigrant. We need the people; we need workers in our factories and people to rebuild neighborhoods and make them alive again. I'm all for enforcing stricter laws on illegals, but ONLY when we can make it easier for them to be legal. A legal resident can take a legitimate job. They pays taxes, they purchase homes, and they send their kids to the local school. I don't understand why we have such a problem making it easier for people come into the country. Obviously we need the people, and if they're legal, we get a lot more good out of them. When we can do that much, then it makes sense to reopen discussions about what to do with the illegal immigrants.

(plug for pittsburgh: 125K gets you a nice 3 bedroom house in a safe neighborhood that's close to everything. I had a friend who got a townhouse for 60K. Beat that.)
Honestly, when it gets a little old listening to my neighbor's Nextel walkie-phony-thing do the ittle beep, I remind myself that I'm about 2 minutes away from the zoo on foot, I can get downtown on my bike in 15 minutes, I don't need to keep my car here (my sister's having fun with it...and all the costs it entails...in the suburbs), and I have every cultural institution I want at my fingertips.

I also agree with you on the whole idea of making it easier to be legal We DO need these people. They are not only a good labor source, but they're also a good addition to our melting-pot culture. I love how a lot of our signs are in English, Spanish and Polish. I love that I can go to Pilsen (Mexican neighborhood) or Chinatown or the Ukranian Village or Edgewater (the Vietnamese/laotion/thai and camboadians live in part of this neighborhood), or up in the northwest part of the city where Middle Eastern people live. I love that not every neighborhood is the same. These people are PEOPLE who are only trying to make a better life for themselves and their children. So why are we refusing their potential tax dollars? If they become citizens, they have every responsibility and priviledge as the rest of us, with the same consequences for not upholding their end. If they remain illegal, enforce the laws. Just give them some semblence of a choice!

Ad 60K for a townhome? STUDIOS start at about 200K here. Although, the farther away from downtown you get, the lower the prices. I happen to live in the high rent district. Well, until my scholarship and college fund are done anyway
post #10 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by bab-ush-niik View Post
As far as legal v. illegal, part of the problem is that it's HARD to be a legal immigrant. We need the people; we need workers in our factories and people to rebuild neighborhoods and make them alive again. I'm all for enforcing stricter laws on illegals, but ONLY when we can make it easier for them to be legal. A legal resident can take a legitimate job. They pays taxes, they purchase homes, and they send their kids to the local school. I don't understand why we have such a problem making it easier for people come into the country. Obviously we need the people, and if they're legal, we get a lot more good out of them. When we can do that much, then it makes sense to reopen discussions about what to do with the illegal immigrants.

(plug for pittsburgh: 125K gets you a nice 3 bedroom house in a safe neighborhood that's close to everything. I had a friend who got a townhouse for 60K. Beat that.)
I am not sure about that CNN story. i am all for legal immigrantion. however
am sorry, we dont need more workers for are factories, we have them. All they have to do is pay a wage that people will work for. not 3 dollars a hour.
In fact the reson places like pittsburgh, and cleveland are becoming graves yard is because there is no factory they all moved south of the border. So there is no reason for them to come here. they dont pay all the same taxes you do, there kids should not be are schools, Ask texas how much money they lose each year giving medical care to illegals. see if they think the trade off is worth it. I dont need to walk into a walmart and not find one person that speaks english in america. If i am in mexico or some other country that is fine. but not here.

once again i am all for immigrantion, legal
post #11 of 22
I am for legal immagration
SLightly Off topic
I prefer sub rural... I can walk to the grocery ( actually two ), bank , a few reastaurants ... we have a walmart that I could walk too but also bike to ( if I had a bike) ... I can get nearly everything I need in my little town... What I dont have ... The need to show ID to write a check , the CRIME ( yes we have some)..... What I do have : a place that IOU does exist ( I have a small tab at the local cafe ) , people still say hi to perfect stangers( Yes that used to bug me) ... I dont have an illegal immigrant pop .... We have to advertise the KKK doesnt live here just to get some minorities
post #12 of 22
I think that implying illegal immigration has anything to do with excessive population and or environmental deterioration is ridiculous. This country thrives off of population growth, our work force, our government, if you think about it , that is all we have. There is no soul export other then money that we have, and that money comes from people, legal or not, it all ends up producing money that supports more the system then the people. Another reason we choose to overlook our responsibilities as individuals to protect our environment, we are to busy worrying about our government and money!
post #13 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingersMom View Post
I still think that we should be TNRing humans, too.
OMG, where were you when I tried making that argument years ago and no one would listen to me????

I agree completely that we need LEGAL immigrants, not illegals. My beautiful daughter would have celebrated her 23rd birthday yesterday, and I would be holding my handsome 4 year old grandson had it not been for illegal immigrant drunk drivers taking them from us almost 5 years ago.

So please don't take this personal, but if you don't belong here legally, GET THE H*** OUT! Come back when you can meet the requirements for citizenship (which are NOT that difficult for a law-abiding hard-working person.)
post #14 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionessrampant View Post
Actually, living in the city is GOOD for the environment. Sprawl is what's bad. Sprawl causes you to drive more. Sprawl also causes you to deforest. Less sprawl = less cars. Also, cities are jumping on the sustainability bandwagon on a different level. Build a green house, you are housing 5 people. Build a green apartment building, you're housing hundreds in a sustainable community.

http://www.laweekly.com/general/feat...ung-green/688/

And yes, if there were no immigrants in cities, they would be smaller. And we would have no one willing to work certain jobs and the cost of living would be even higher than it is now. Plus, (and more importantly), you'd have a human rights CRISIS on your hands.
Please explain, exactly how would we have a human rights crisis on our hands?
post #15 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by neetanddave View Post
OMG, where were you when I tried making that argument years ago and no one would listen to me????

I agree completely that we need LEGAL immigrants, not illegals. My beautiful daughter would have celebrated her 23rd birthday yesterday, and I would be holding my handsome 4 year old grandson had it not been for illegal immigrant drunk drivers taking them from us almost 5 years ago.

So please don't take this personal, but if you don't belong here legally, GET THE H*** OUT! Come back when you can meet the requirements for citizenship (which are NOT that difficult for a law-abiding hard-working person.)
I am very sorry to hear that you lost your daughter and Grandson in such tragic circumstances, and I hope the person who killed them was punished to the full extent of the law.

I don't think it is that easy to immigrate here legally (UK). There are a lot of talented people being given a hard time with work permits. Here in the UK an employer has to justify why they are hiring an International person over some one from the UK. In a capitalist society that makes no sense to me, if an international person is the better candidate and will make the company more money then why shouldn't they get a work permit? I mean this person will pay income tax and council tax and make the government money. Contribute to society. Yet paradoxically coming in illegally (done generally by unqualfied unemployed people) is so much easier.

Why?!

My sister is an events planner with a top degree from a UK university she is successful and great at her job. She would be a great asset to a company here. Yet applying for a work permit would be a long and difficult process, so why should she? She can stay where she is continue making money and a name for herself. To a lot of talented people I know its just not worth it. None of these people would dream on going on benefits (welfare) they love their jobs are from great families , college degrees (many from Ivy league universities) and really want to move here. Yet they get denied work permits and treated badly for wanting to immagrate.

However coming in illegally is so much easier. No one I know with any talent (or self respect) would do this, they are fine where they are making competitive money for the same big companies International branches. So who is left? People who have nothing to lose, no work prospects or degrees who don't have much to offer.

Sorry for the ramble.
post #16 of 22
Sims2fan, thanks for your kind words, and the law took care of them. 41 years to go on their sentence, and THEN they get deported.

And you are right. As I posted in another thread today, many people who illegally come to the US have nothing to lose. They have no prospects, no career, no opportunity. They are seduced by the media's image of life in the US as a big freakin' party with girls in bikinis and free beer while you work in a donut factory for top pay. With nothing to leave behind, they have nothing to lose.
post #17 of 22
The thing is handouts are not doing them any favours. They think the money sounds like it a lot, try living in London and the expense that entails. In their own countries they would not get this, they would have to work. This would give them some kind of self worth and maybe then they can try and come here legally.

Handout are not the answer. Welfare really shouls be for those who need it, those with real disabilty or mental illness who obviously cannot work. They are ones who don't seem to qualify for it.

I am glad your daughters killers were punished, it really gives me hope.
post #18 of 22
I think that in both the US and the UK, the welfare hand outs should be restricted to legal citizens. People who have put something into the society. Sometimes even the hardest working and most diligent people can come across hard times, and they need help to get back on their feet.

I don't think Welfare should be for illegals who enter the country and head straight for the Welfare office as soon as they can get there. Sadly, that is what I see happening. There are Americans who are getting Welfare, and a lot of them I don't believe should be getting it either, but if you go down to the Welfare office in major cities like Los Angeles, you would have a HARD time finding and English Speaking American person in the entire office.
post #19 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by neetanddave View Post
Sims2fan, thanks for your kind words, and the law took care of them. 41 years to go on their sentence, and THEN they get deported.

And you are right. As I posted in another thread today, many people who illegally come to the US have nothing to lose. They have no prospects, no career, no opportunity. They are seduced by the media's image of life in the US as a big freakin' party with girls in bikinis and free beer while you work in a donut factory for top pay. With nothing to leave behind, they have nothing to lose.
And not only that, but many who arrive illegally in countries such as Australia and England (I don't know if it's the same in the US where it's more a case of crossing the border) are lured by the very people who smuggle them in. They deliberately target those whose lives could and would be vastly improved in countries other than their own, extort them out of everything they have, separate them from their families on false pretences, clean them out, dump them on the shores of a country who can and will deport them immediately (or in the case of Australia, move them somewhere offshore and keep them there in detention centres for five years) when all they wanted was the chance at a better life.

These people aren't educated, don't have access to sources of information that will show them what coming illegally to this country will result in, they blindly trust those who promise them new, happy lives free of persecution and poverty and fear and struggle, and then that's exactly what they face at the hands of our government as soon as they arrive on our shores.

IMO, in 90% of cases it's the people smugglers who should be lined up and shot, not the immigrants themselves.

Neet, I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter and grandson. That must have broken your heart. I can't imagine. I can only hope you feel vindicated in the sentence for the person who did this - I know it's not anywhere near enough for the lives he took, but at least some punishment has been dealt.
post #20 of 22
The major reason, IMo, as to why Congress won't come to a satisfactory agreement to the issue of illegal immigration is quite simple. If they allow the ones who are already here to stay and grant them amnesty then that becomes more potential votes for the politicians.

I'm all for legal immigration but I don't why there should even be a debate about it. The key word is "illegal", which means they shouldn't and have no right to be here in the first place. It's not inhumane or cruel to deport those caught here illegaly because they aren't supposed to be here in the first place. For some reason there's a big outcry when we try to enforce our immigration laws here in the US but I can guarantee you that if an American citizen was caught illegaly in Mexico they would dump you back across the border in the blink of an eye.

Illegal immigrants are one of the reasons why our wages are lowering and why the cost of health care is rising. I don't know about any of you but I sure don't want to foot the bill for someone who shouldn't be here in the first place.

If the government really wanted to they could stop quite a bit of the illegal immigration by going after companies that hire illegals and making them severly pay for it. There is a debate going on now with a pilot program to allow 100 mexican trucking companies to operate freely in the US. Of course they will driving around speaking very little, if any, English and also in substandard equipment. Contrary to what the government is saying do you honestly believe that thorough background checks are being done? I don't. The FMCSA inspects few of the trucks in this country, what makes you think they can enforce the safety laws with the Mexican trucks as well? If this program is successful then it will be opened to allow free reign to the Mexican trucking companies to run coast to coast in the US. This is going to severly hurt the American truck driving industry by lowering the cost of shipping freight which will negatively affect the wages of the over 3.5 million truck drivers in this country. There has to be a way to get out of NAFTA and I sure as heck don't want to see a North American Union come about, ala the EU.

I've been believing for a while that there isn't anyone in Washington who even cares about what it best for this country anymore and it makes me sick.
post #21 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheylink View Post
I think that implying illegal immigration has anything to do with excessive population and or environmental deterioration is ridiculous.
I have to agree with this statement. On a world level, population growth is going to occur regardless of where people live so I can't find the relationship to illegal immigration. And it is somewhat more environmentally friendly to cluster people in cities than it is to have sprawl. Sprawl contributes to the loss of natural habitat and is harder on the environment.

I think they should make it easier to obtain legal immigration status and encourage influx into areas that are declining to fill the void.
post #22 of 22
Legal immigration really is the answer. There are many talented people wanting to move to the West with great qualifications. There is so much to gain from their skills.

Even in the case of asylum seekers. Many Doctors have come in from Iraq as refugees with great qualifications but their talents are not being used.

For Example:

In the UK it would cost a Doctor approximately 10,000 pounds to pay for a conversion course to practice in the UK. They cannot possible pay this themselves so they are not working in this valuable profession. What a waste!
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