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Pippin has Crystals!

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
Oy I'm back with Pippin and his problems. We had a good 6 months of good health and now he has a new issue.
Yesterday morning my roommate woke me up telling me that Pippin was hunched over and straining and he was trickling pee on the carpet. I got up to check on him and he was still hunched over and peeing. I pressed on his tummy a bit and he peed more, then went to the litter box a few minutes later and had a nice big pee. He never pees on the carpet so I was concerned.
I called the vet and asked for clavamox for him since I thought he had a UTI. They asked me to come in so this morning I took him in and we just got home.
Last night he was ok-ish. He wasn't running back and forth to the box which is typical when he's having urinary trouble. He was a little sleepier and more lethargic, but not even that much and he did not feel hot. He was eating and drinking normally.
I took him in and during his initial exam the vet tech pushed on his bladder and he started peeing on the table. They were able to get a good sample straight from the source, so to speak! Some blood came out near the end of that.
Well he's full of crystals. He has Calcium oxylate and streuvite crystals!!!! (
He's not blocked, which is good, but crystals are not. The vet recommended a diet change so I brought home Royal Canin SO. He has been eating crappy food because my roommate and I have 5 cats and so we feed a cheaper food. They've been eating purina cat chow and meow mix indoor food.
I got them to make a copy of the urinalysis and here is what it says:
Sediment: calcium oxylate + struvite +++
RBC's + WBC's
Spec. Grav: >1.035
Urobilinogen: Norm
Glucose: Norm
Ketone: Norm
Bilirubin: Neg
Protein: ++
Nitrite: Neg
Leukocytes: ++
Blood: +++
pH: 7

I don't really understand any of that, but I know that this is a common problem so I'm hoping some of you can advise me.
For those of you with crystal kittys, what do you feed? What exacerbates the situation?
Pippin was in this past summer with constipation which was followed by a UTI and then more constipation. His urinalysis then was clean.

I mentioned to the vet about having a Perineal Urethrostomy to basically turn his penis into a vagina and keep him from getting blocked, but the vet said we should try food change and see if he clears up the crystals. If he gets blocked, the vet said we could go ahead and do the PU at that time. I'd rather do the PU sooner rather than later because I think the risks associated with it are more palatable then a constantly reblocking kitty. What do you all think? Has anyone has a PU done? What were the pros and cons of it?

Pippin ALSO has a heart murmur, which could be a problem during a surgery, so for that reason I'm trying him on the food first too.
Has anyone had ANY luck with a grocery store or less expensive brand urinary health food? If I could find one that was less expensive AND it would also not affect the other kitties negatively, I'd be interested in getting that for the feeder and then feeding pippin twice a day separately with the prescription food.

I'm very worried about my little boy. He never has small issues, only large expensive ones. He seems to be feeling ok and also ate some of the new food, which is nice. I was afraid he'd turn his nose up at it.

Devlyn
post #2 of 28
I'm sorry to hear about your Pippin. Neutered males are prone to crystals and a wet food diet helps keep crystals under control from what I gather.

The other thing you have already proven to yourself is that sometimes paying less for food costs more down the road in vet bills. Royal Canin is apparently a good food and I don't believe it's terribly expensive. Naturally we have to feed what we can afford, but usually if you feed a better quality food, they actually eat less which in the long term offsets the extra cost so that it works out to be about the same.

I changed to Merrick's wet food about a year ago as I had been feeding an all dry diet and I do believe our kitties are healthier and doing better for the change. In Canada (where I live at least) Merrick's is very expensive so with all your kitties that may not be a good choice for you.
post #3 of 28
I'm sorry that Pippin is having trouble. How old is Pippin?

The PU surgery can be a lifesaver for a male that's been obstructed more than once. The upside is they'll likely never get "blocked" again. The downside is that it can make them more prone to bacterial urinary infections. True bacterial infections ("UTIs") are otherwise pretty rare in young cats. They are more common in humans, dogs, and older cats. The real problem in younger otherwise healthy cats is usually crystals.

Yosemite is right. The best thing for a crystal prone kitty is a canned food diet. Raw is just as beneficial, if you and your vet are OK with it. Yosemite is also right about the cost benefits of a higher quality food. I can speak from experience on that too, as my cats ate only about 1/3 as much Rx dry food as they did Cat Chow.

The biggest factors in crystal prone kitties are water intake (best accomplished with wet food) and stress.

I hope Pippin gets to feeling better soon.
post #4 of 28
Thread Starter 
I'm right there with you! I've considered switching to different foods in the past and even considered doing the raw diet. I tried out a better quality dry food but the kitties hated it. We have a new petsmart in the area though, so I know there are probably a wider variety of options there that I haven't had access to before. I own 3 of the cats and my roommate owns two and they all eat together in our blended household.
I'm not sure if I should try to free feed the cheaper food and then give pippin his special diet seperately in two meals. Ideally, he'll get addicted to the new food and wait to eat his "meals" instead of nibbling all day, but I don't think that's likely lol!
Thanks for your reply!!

Devlyn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
I'm sorry to hear about your Pippin. Neutered males are prone to crystals and a wet food diet helps keep crystals under control from what I gather.

The other thing you have already proven to yourself is that sometimes paying less for food costs more down the road in vet bills. Royal Canin is apparently a good food and I don't believe it's terribly expensive. Naturally we have to feed what we can afford, but usually if you feed a better quality food, they actually eat less which in the long term offsets the extra cost so that it works out to be about the same.

I changed to Merrick's wet food about a year ago as I had been feeding an all dry diet and I do believe our kitties are healthier and doing better for the change. In Canada (where I live at least) Merrick's is very expensive so with all your kitties that may not be a good choice for you.
post #5 of 28
Thread Starter 
Since we got our water fountain, Pippin's been drinking a lot more water. I had to do that because of his constipation issues, and I was feeding a lot more wet food before the roomy moved in. My 3 would share a can once or twice a day, then eat dry food the rest of the time. With the five, one can really doesn't go far at all lol!
Does anyone know if feeding all the kits the rx food will affect them adversely?
Oh! Pippin is 4.5 years.

Devlyn
post #6 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devlyn View Post
Since we got our water fountain, Pippin's been drinking a lot more water. I had to do that because of his constipation issues, and I was feeding a lot more wet food before the roomy moved in. My 3 would share a can once or twice a day, then eat dry food the rest of the time. With the five, one can really doesn't go far at all lol!
Does anyone know if feeding all the kits the rx food will affect them adversely?
Oh! Pippin is 4.5 years.

Devlyn
It would be best to ask your vet about feeding the Rx food to all of the cats.

Personally, my vet gave me the OK to do that. But it depends on the food and the health status of all the cats involved.

The Royal Canin S/O food is one of the better choices (of all Rx urinary formulas) for feeding to otherwise healthy cats. But I do suggest talking to your vet about it.

I can relate about the canned food not going far between a group of cats. I've switched my group of 8 to all canned...cha-ching $$$. But in a very short time, I already see many improvements in all of them. Should save me on the vet bills in the long run.
post #7 of 28
I sadly have a lot of expirience with these issues. I've had 7 cats, now 6 and 3 of them had UTI at some point and 3 had FLUTD. Last fall Chester was blocked and kept reblocking so we had to have the PU done. Since his full recovery, no problems. I did a ton of research on the proceedure and was able to ask my vet all the right questions ahead of time. If the surgery becomes necessary, try to have laser surgery. According to my vet it resulted in less blood loss and made the entire proceedure easier to do because visibility was not impaired. We got a kitten in December and the little terror has been stressing them out. Chester had loose stools and diarrhea then I saw him burying freshly deposited urine on one of their beds. I got him in immediately that morning. With his history, we're not talking any chances. He had bloodwork and urinalysis and everything was fine. Doc thinks it's stress and someone could be urine marking.

The doctor strongly urged me to feed him CD for the rest of his life, but after looking at the ingredients and from previous expirience, I refuse. Over the past 2 years I have been educating myself on pet foods. I went from Iams and Science Diet to Nutro Natural Choice to Wellness. After Chester's illness I began to incorporate wet food. Now they eat Wellness Core and Innova Evo dry, Wellness, Merrick and Evo wet. I split two 5.5oz cans between them in the mornings. At lunch they get about 1 1/2-2 cups dry.

I began researching the effects of a high protein grain free diet (Core & Evo) and found some very interesting things. It used to be believed that a high protein diet was hard on the kidneys. That has been proven untrue in scientific studies. A healthy cat should have no problems. I have two big boys 16lbs and 14lbs that the vets comment on. High protein diets have been shown to allow them to lose weight while maintaining lean muscle mass (difficult on the fiber filled diet formulas). I also found some info that suggests that the high protein diet may help cats with diabetes and has been shown to reduce the ph of the urine. I wanted to be prepared to discuss this with my vet as my gut was screaming at me not to feed them crap.

Based on my research and personal expirience I truely believe that once the problem is cleared up, a high quality premium food should suffice. I have also looked at supplements that acidify the urine to help prevent future problems in my cats that have recurring issues. Make sure to ask your vet about Uroeze. It is a medication that acidifies the urine and thereby dissolves the crystals. In 2002 when Kali had FLUTD the vet did not even mention medication and our whole household suffered through restricted feedings so he could eat the CD. Chester was prescribed some last fall. My vet says they use it as a last resort or in difficult cases. I was adamant about not feeding prescription junk food to all of my cats which is my only option. Since your kitty has had some recurring issues, ask your vet if they know of a reliable holistic veterinarian. Holistic vets specialize in alternative treatments. They might be able to help you in preventing future problems.
post #8 of 28
RC SO is a good RX for UTI issues...


I would recommend canned or raw( yes raw only with a vets help) or homemade after a vet talk ....

UTI s appeared in my house no crystals ( RX is best till crystals are gone)... here FISH is the culprit and had to go from 25% of diet to about 5% to control it ..

Purina one and Nutro max are both certified Uti formulas and arent expensive ... if you have to feed dry discuss these with your vet
post #9 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devlyn View Post
I got them to make a copy of the urinalysis and here is what it says:
Sediment: calcium oxylate + struvite +++
RBC's + WBC's
Spec. Grav: >1.035
Urobilinogen: Norm
Glucose: Norm
Ketone: Norm
Bilirubin: Neg
Protein: ++
Nitrite: Neg
Leukocytes: ++
Blood: +++
pH: 7
(SNIP)
I don't really understand any of that, but I know that this is a common problem so I'm hoping some of you can advise me.
For those of you with crystal kittys, what do you feed? What exacerbates the situation?
Basically, your kitty is plugged up with high levels of struvite crystals and some calcium oxalate crystals. The other urinalysis parameters include the cellular components found in urine and markers of inflammation etc.

Feeding Royal Canin Urinary SO is a good way to prevent the formation of struvite and calcium oxalate crystals, and I'm currently using it as a maintenance food for my cat who had a bout of struvite crystals in November. I'm a firm believer in RX food for FLUTD kitties, and a number of vets I've consulted with recommend that my boy stays on RX for the rest of his life. It is a bit more expensive than store-brand foods, however, it only ends up being about a dollar a day for my cat Pico who's consuming the dry and wet formulations. He hasn't had any reoccurence and is doing great.
post #10 of 28
Thread Starter 
Thanks so much for your lengthy reply. There's a lot of great info in here!!
I will have to ask the vet about the medications when I'm in on Monday. Pippin is NOT eating the Royal Canin and his behavior is a little weird today, so I isolated him in my bedroom (with Morris for company lol) and the rx food, fresh water and a fresh litter box. If he's still acting weird tomorrow, I may take him in. He's still using the litter box but I found some clear vomit this morning. That might have been him or one of the other kits. He has been having issues with the clavamox pills now and fights me a lot when I give them to him. I think they are hard on his tummy, frankly.
The vet doesn't have any other food options for me in his office right now, so I'm going to try to get him to eat it this weekend, and if that doesn't work, I'll probably pick up some nutro max roast chicken. I'm trying the nutro because I was feeding the kitten formula to Smeagol and the other cats LOVED it. I'm hoping he'll love this too, and at least it will be better than the Meow Mix.
A new RX food is being released next month that treats both kinds of crystals and ph issues, so I will try that probably if Pippin's still having crystal issues.
Some kitties just seem to be more delicate than others and Pippin's one of them.

Thanks!

Dev


Quote:
Originally Posted by mskitty666 View Post
I sadly have a lot of expirience with these issues. I've had 7 cats, now 6 and 3 of them had UTI at some point and 3 had FLUTD. Last fall Chester was blocked and kept reblocking so we had to have the PU done. Since his full recovery, no problems. I did a ton of research on the proceedure and was able to ask my vet all the right questions ahead of time. If the surgery becomes necessary, try to have laser surgery. According to my vet it resulted in less blood loss and made the entire proceedure easier to do because visibility was not impaired. We got a kitten in December and the little terror has been stressing them out. Chester had loose stools and diarrhea then I saw him burying freshly deposited urine on one of their beds. I got him in immediately that morning. With his history, we're not talking any chances. He had bloodwork and urinalysis and everything was fine. Doc thinks it's stress and someone could be urine marking.

The doctor strongly urged me to feed him CD for the rest of his life, but after looking at the ingredients and from previous expirience, I refuse. Over the past 2 years I have been educating myself on pet foods. I went from Iams and Science Diet to Nutro Natural Choice to Wellness. After Chester's illness I began to incorporate wet food. Now they eat Wellness Core and Innova Evo dry, Wellness, Merrick and Evo wet. I split two 5.5oz cans between them in the mornings. At lunch they get about 1 1/2-2 cups dry.

I began researching the effects of a high protein grain free diet (Core & Evo) and found some very interesting things. It used to be believed that a high protein diet was hard on the kidneys. That has been proven untrue in scientific studies. A healthy cat should have no problems. I have two big boys 16lbs and 14lbs that the vets comment on. High protein diets have been shown to allow them to lose weight while maintaining lean muscle mass (difficult on the fiber filled diet formulas). I also found some info that suggests that the high protein diet may help cats with diabetes and has been shown to reduce the ph of the urine. I wanted to be prepared to discuss this with my vet as my gut was screaming at me not to feed them crap.

Based on my research and personal expirience I truely believe that once the problem is cleared up, a high quality premium food should suffice. I have also looked at supplements that acidify the urine to help prevent future problems in my cats that have recurring issues. Make sure to ask your vet about Uroeze. It is a medication that acidifies the urine and thereby dissolves the crystals. In 2002 when Kali had FLUTD the vet did not even mention medication and our whole household suffered through restricted feedings so he could eat the CD. Chester was prescribed some last fall. My vet says they use it as a last resort or in difficult cases. I was adamant about not feeding prescription junk food to all of my cats which is my only option. Since your kitty has had some recurring issues, ask your vet if they know of a reliable holistic veterinarian. Holistic vets specialize in alternative treatments. They might be able to help you in preventing future problems.
post #11 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
RC SO is a good RX for UTI issues...


I would recommend canned or raw( yes raw only with a vets help) or homemade after a vet talk ....

UTI s appeared in my house no crystals ( RX is best till crystals are gone)... here FISH is the culprit and had to go from 25% of diet to about 5% to control it ..

Purina one and Nutro max are both certified Uti formulas and arent expensive ... if you have to feed dry discuss these with your vet
I asked the vet about nutro max and he said he wouldn't feed him that because of the crystals, but that it was up to me. He wants Pippin on an RX formula, but he understands that if the cat won't eat it, he won't eat it. I'm going to try to enforce the RX food this weekend and return it on Monday if he won't touch it. All the other cats happily eat it, just Pippin (who needs it) refuses. LOL! What a stinker he is!
I'm worried about him again today because he's acting weird so he's segregated so I can figure out if he's throwing up and using the litter box.
post #12 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carm View Post
Basically, your kitty is plugged up with high levels of struvite crystals and some calcium oxalate crystals. The other urinalysis parameters include the cellular components found in urine and markers of inflammation etc.

Feeding Royal Canin Urinary SO is a good way to prevent the formation of struvite and calcium oxalate crystals, and I'm currently using it as a maintenance food for my cat who had a bout of struvite crystals in November. I'm a firm believer in RX food for FLUTD kitties, and a number of vets I've consulted with recommend that my boy stays on RX for the rest of his life. It is a bit more expensive than store-brand foods, however, it only ends up being about a dollar a day for my cat Pico who's consuming the dry and wet formulations. He hasn't had any reoccurence and is doing great.
Thanks for your input! I have heard only good things about Royal Canin and I'm glad it's working for your kitty!!
Pippin is refusing to eat it, which is typical stinker behavior from him. He's very spoiled and dramatic. lol!
Simple, on the other hand, gobbles it up like it's his precious, as do the other cats in the house. The only one who doesn't like it is Pippin, of course lol.
He's back into the vet on Monday (or earlier if necessary) to do another urinalysis. I doubt if there will be much or any improvement with the crystals since he won't eat the food, but we will see. I'll ask for meds if he's still being a butthead.

Devlyn
post #13 of 28
How can he have both crystals at the same time?
My cat is doing well with carpon. I don't have a link, search carpon dr. belfield. He is very nice will answer emails and talk on the phone. tell him gail sent you.
post #14 of 28
Thread Starter 
I wish I knew!!! I just know he has them. I've never had a cat with crystals before, so the whole diet thing is new to me.
Thanks for the advice about carpon, I'll look it up!

Dev
post #15 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devlyn View Post
A new RX food is being released next month that treats both kinds of crystals and ph issues, so I will try that probably if Pippin's still having crystal issues.
I'm sorry to hear that Pippin is having trouble and doesn't appreciate the Rx food too much. They always want what they can't have, don't they?

The RC Urinary SO is actually formulated to prevent both types of crystals. The new Hills C/D "Multicare" coming out soon is made to target both types of crystals also. That might be the one you're thinking of. He might find the Hills food more palatable. My cats liked it. I still think wet is the best, but I know it's tough w/multiple cats and finnicky cats. Good luck.
post #16 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beandip View Post
I'm sorry to hear that Pippin is having trouble and doesn't appreciate the Rx food too much. They always want what they can't have, don't they?

The RC Urinary SO is actually formulated to prevent both types of crystals. The new Hills C/D "Multicare" coming out soon is made to target both types of crystals also. That might be the one you're thinking of. He might find the Hills food more palatable. My cats liked it. I still think wet is the best, but I know it's tough w/multiple cats and finnicky cats. Good luck.
Yes, the Hills is the one he's talking about. I'm actually all out of wet food so I need to get up to the store for more. I've been feeding them the meow mix pouches which actually seem to have decent ingredients. I tried putting them on a better dry food (the only decent one at the grocery store) and they all hated it. LOL! They told me it tasted like straw.
Anyways, I think I might as well pick up a small bag of the nutro max kitty to see if they like it at all. Since that's what I'm hoping to switch them all to eventually, I might as well see if pippin will eat it. Maybe I can do a mix of nutro, rc and his junk food and see if he eats any of the good stuff. Maybe it will confuse his little furry mind enough.
We shall see!

Dev
post #17 of 28
I'm sorry to hear Pippin is having problems with crystals and won't eat his RX food. I have a similar problem with my Eric. He's been on S/D for a week and refuses to eat it.

Now, I know this isn't recommended procedure but sometimes you do what you have to do. I've been mixing a little S/D with his Venison and Pea wet food. He love it and gobbles it up. I chose the Venison and Pea because of the low fish content, only salmon oil in it. Maybe Pippin would accept the dry RX food if you hide it in a wet food he particularly likes.

Good luck resolving Pippin's crystals issues. I know exactly what you're dealing with.
post #18 of 28
Thread Starter 
That's exactly what I was going to do this morning when I realized I didn't have any wet food left! Doh!
I appreciate the advice though, because I really just want him to eat this stuff, and get better, so I can stop stressing!!! lol
I know meomies aren't supposed to have favorites, but I do, and Pippin is him.
I love the other kitties, and, in fact, ALL kitties that I meet, but he's my baby!
That's what makes this so hard. I hope your kitty is doing better!

Devlyn
post #19 of 28
Sorry you Pippin is being so difficult. I know exactly what that's like. You mentioned trouble getting the Clavamox in him. Next time ask for the liquid. I find it much easier to administer liquids than pills. The Uroeze comes in tablets or powder. Are you trying to feed him the canned or dry formula? My Chester wouldn't touch the wet stuff so the vet and I decided to give him the dry formula and he started eating.
post #20 of 28
Due to both types of crystals being present your RX choices are limited ... I am sending please get well vibes to Pippin
post #21 of 28
Thread Starter 
He's on the dry formula. I asked for the pills actually because Pippin hates hates hates the liquid clavamox. I thought the pills might be easier since I've never had problems giving pills before. First time for everything right? lol
Thanks for all the vibes. I think he ate a little of the RX food last night. I threw a handful of the junk food on top hoping that he would "accidentally" get some of the good stuff and like it.

Devlyn
post #22 of 28
I add a bit of crushed catnip to one of my cat's dry food and water. I think he's been eating and drinking more because of the catnip, but he won't eat canned food no matter how much catnip is on it.
post #23 of 28
Thread Starter 
I've tried putting cat nip in with the RC S/O but he just sniffs at it and turns away. He's such a brat!
He acts like his food bowl is full of turds, and the other cats eat it like it's candy! WTH!
I just don't understand him, he ate it the first day and seemed to like it and now he hates it. So weird!
post #24 of 28
Thread Starter 
So I went to PetSmart and picked up some of the nutro max cat roasted chicken formula and some cans of nutro max cat, nutro naturals and blue spa as well as some of Pippin's favorite Meow Mix Packets.
I mixed some of the nutro naturals with some nutro dry food and some of the RC S/O and even added some KRM for "gravy". He definitely ate some of the dry in his little mix of food, so that's a good thing.
I got the Nutro Dry because it was talking about balancing the PH levels in the urine, which he needs. He didn't seem too interested in it without some canned food smeared on it, but that's ok, because I'm trying to get him super hydrated so that he's constantly flushing out his system. Hopefully that will help keep him from getting blocked up. I'd like him to eat canned food with some dry during the day to nibble on.
If he would eat the RC S/O on it's own, or in combo with the canned food, it would at least help with the crystals. He ate some of it, and some of the nutro, so at least he's not eating the junk.
I also gave him some of the blue spa pate style food and he ate at it, but I don't think he really likes the texture. He's a big fan of "bits in gravy", probably because the pate sticks to the roof of his mouth. Damn this pet food recall. :/
He's back into the vet on Monday, so hopefully his crystals will be down at least a bit.
Sinbad's Mom recommended I feed him some sodium ascorbate or ascorbate acid in his food each day. She said it helped with her cat when she had problems with crystals.
Does anyone else have experience with this? She cited an article by Dr. Belfield, but I honestly couldn't follow it because it was too scientific and my brain just don't operate like that.
If it doesn't help, will it hurt him? I just don't want to give it to him and then have another problem crop up.
I plan on asking my vet about it, but he may not have any info on it. I know that vets have to absorb a LOT of info about a LOT of different animals in a relatively short period, so they aren't and can't have godlike knowledge, but it sure would be useful! lol!
Any other recommends for me to ask my vet about when I go in on Monday?
I was really hoping Pippin would go crazy for the Nutro and RC (like EVERY OTHER CAT in this house is!!!), but since he's not I'll try to make it as palatable as possible.

Devlyn
post #25 of 28
I've also read posts regarding using sodium ascorbate as a supplement for cats with crystals. I did a little searching on the web and as far as I'm concerned the results are mixed. Here are two links that provide varying points of view. I'm interested in these issues because I have two cats with crystals who are currently eating S/D with their wet food. If there is anything I can do to get rid of the S/D and/or C/D I'm interested.

http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/bpo_ch8a.php


http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.ph...=show&item=017

Continued good wishes and vibes to you in your search for a combination of food that Pippin will eat. I hope you get good results at your vet visit Monday.
post #26 of 28
I agree that the results are mixed when it comes to sodium ascorbate for urinary issues.

There's also this Wysong supplement...

http://www.wysong.net/Merchant2/merc...roduct_Count=9

It's got a long list of ingredients, but it looks like it's been formulated to be "tasty", maybe? I have not tried it myself. It is meant to lower the pH, which may not be useful for you and Pippin...see my note below.

I wonder how much DL-Methionine is in the Wysong product? It's the 3rd ingredient, so it must be quite a bit. I suppose I should ask them. I wonder too, how much of the DL-Methionine is in a serving of S/D?

Questions to ask Pippin's vet...I would ask what his pH is or has been. I'm curious to know how he managed to get both oxalate and struvite crystals (ask that too ). Although I suppose it's not impossible, it seems odd as the 2 types require a very different pH environment in order to form. Knowing the pH could help you with your food/supplement choices too. I do not know for sure but I think the Vitamin C treatment is more useful for struvite (forms in high pH), rather than oxalate (forms in low pH). So yes, acidifying Pippin's urine could be bad if he's prone to oxalate crystals. That is still very puzzling to me how he could have both. But I haven't really read up on oxalate, as we haven't (thankfully) crossed that bridge, yet.

This all sort of goes back to what Sharky said, if Pippin has both types of crystals it really limits your choices on food and/or supplements. There are just a couple of foods formulated to prevent BOTH types...it takes some tricky science to do that.
post #27 of 28
Thread Starter 
Well I took Pippin in today for his "appointment" and then realized his appointment isn't till the 23rd lol! I'm such a dumass. Anyways, I got him checked out anyways since I was there and we got another urinalysis.
His PH is up to 8 now. I mentioned that I thought that was too alkyline, and he said "his urine is like battery acid". I was a little confused and figured that I must have the PH scale backwards, but when I looked it up when I got home, I found out that I was, in face, correct.
I'm not really sure what to do about that though, except try him on the canned SO which I picked up. Pippin actually likes the canned, so I've been mixing it with his dry SO and he's been eating some. He's also started coming down and looking at me when he's hungry, so I know when to go fix him a meal (even with the free feeder with cat chow in it). So that's a positive sign!
I got some anti-inflammatories for him as well. I'm hoping that they will help take down the swelling in his urethra and make it easier for him to pee, which will help with flushing out the crystals hopefully.
I told the vet that it seemed somewhat unusual for him to have BOTH kinds of crystals, and he said that it wasn't that uncommon, but I don't think anyone has posted yet who said that they had an experience with it. I've also had difficulty finding any information on cats with both crystals on vet and cat health websites.
I really do like my vet so I'm going to see how things progress on the SO food. The vet tech told me that Pippin will be on the SO food for the rest of his life, but I'm not sure how I feel about that. The ingredients aren't all that good sounding to me. The canned SO has meat-byproducts as it's second ingredient and also has lots of corn and grains.
I'm also planning on trying the new hills multicare cd when it comes out, to see if that formula works and/or tastes better to Pippin.
We have also ordered some Cosequin as a supplement to help with his bladder wall. Does anyone have any experience with that?
This is what the Cosequin website said:
"My veterinarian mentioned that Cosequin can be used to help maintain the health of my cat's bladder. How does this work?
Some veterinarians also recommend Cosequin to help maintain urinary bladder health. The inner lining of the bladder wall is protected by a layer, which contains some of the same compounds as are found in cartilage. This layer keeps urine and the waste products contained within it from seeping into and affecting the lining. Since the low molecular weight chondroitin sulfate found only in Cosequin is available to more than just cartilage cells, the bladder may use it to help support this protective layer."

I feel like my best bet is to continue to get him to eat the SO food and push lots and lots of fluids to try to flush him out. I'm just not sure what I should be looking at as far as his urine ph (to acidify or not?). The vet said that struvite crystals shouldn't be able to survive in his very acidic urine, but like I said, it's NOT acidic, it's alkyline.
I would guess that it's probably too alkyline to be good for either type of crystal, so perhaps feeding him twice a day will help that, since when they eat their bladder gets more alkaline (from what I've read).

If anyone can see some sort of flaw in my logic, please say so. I'd like to think I know what I'm talking about, but I could just be talking out of my butt! lol

He did say he could refer me to an internal specialist, but I feel like we are just starting down this road, and maybe I should wait on that till later.

Anyways, I just wanted to post an update.

Thanks for all the advice!

Devlyn

Quote:
Originally Posted by beandip View Post
I agree that the results are mixed when it comes to sodium ascorbate for urinary issues.

There's also this Wysong supplement...

http://www.wysong.net/Merchant2/merc...roduct_Count=9

It's got a long list of ingredients, but it looks like it's been formulated to be "tasty", maybe? I have not tried it myself. It is meant to lower the pH, which may not be useful for you and Pippin...see my note below.

I wonder how much DL-Methionine is in the Wysong product? It's the 3rd ingredient, so it must be quite a bit. I suppose I should ask them. I wonder too, how much of the DL-Methionine is in a serving of S/D?

Questions to ask Pippin's vet...I would ask what his pH is or has been. I'm curious to know how he managed to get both oxalate and struvite crystals (ask that too ). Although I suppose it's not impossible, it seems odd as the 2 types require a very different pH environment in order to form. Knowing the pH could help you with your food/supplement choices too. I do not know for sure but I think the Vitamin C treatment is more useful for struvite (forms in high pH), rather than oxalate (forms in low pH). So yes, acidifying Pippin's urine could be bad if he's prone to oxalate crystals. That is still very puzzling to me how he could have both. But I haven't really read up on oxalate, as we haven't (thankfully) crossed that bridge, yet.

This all sort of goes back to what Sharky said, if Pippin has both types of crystals it really limits your choices on food and/or supplements. There are just a couple of foods formulated to prevent BOTH types...it takes some tricky science to do that.
post #28 of 28
I am currently trying the Cosequin for cats for three of my oldest kitties. Two have started to show signs of mild arthritis. I was very interested in it when I read about it also helping the bladder wall, but want to wait until I see the vet this week. I'm concerned about giving supplements to the kitten. I also ordered UT strength for my cats to help prevent future problems, but my vet reccomended against it. She said that if the cat is healthy it's best not to mess around with their ph. We are trying to figure out the cause of some inappropriate urination around here. I would call the vet and ask about supplements for Pippin as well as inquire about the ph. I've seen those result sheets and it is quite possible he was reading the wrong number even though the results showed acidic urine. Any way you must be sure. If the ph of 8 was correct and he thinks that's acidic, look for a new vet. If you are uncomfortable with the ingredients in the prescription food, first get Pippin well. In the meantime research alternative foods and supplements and discuss them with your vet. Just remember that vets are not pet nutrition specialists. I have chosen not to permanantly feed a prescription diet. Instead close monitoring, screening and the use of supplements and medication seems most reasonable and healthy for my cats.
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