Disclosing PKd before purchase - Is it your responsibility as a breeder?

fluffysimba

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I've had a really hard time this week. I am new to the Persian world. I started over a year ago with one male and one female. Both are negative from negative parents. Although well over a year old my female had no heat cycles and was not interested in my male. I needed to do something. One of my breeder friends told me to contact an area breeder who was downsizing who might help me *get started*. I've done lots and lots of research of various catteries online and I know most claim to be PKd free or will say when their Persians are negative. I also knew of the disease and figured that no responsible and caring breeder would sell a kitten that was positive... at least NOT as a breeder and only after disclosing this fault to the buyer.

I was wrong! I was very very wrong!

First off let me say to all you people out there new to breeding - LEARN about feline Polycystic Kidney disease and then ASK before bringing a kitten or cat home! Become aware!

I signed a contract in January for seven cats. Two of them were pregnant and due right away. Two others wouldn't come to me until later. The contract stated that I would pay for the cats with the sale of kittens. The two pregnant girls miscarried both their litters. BOTH are PKd positive.

Long story short - five of the 7 cats are positive for PKd. The kitten could be too but she was never tested by the breeder. When the last breeder lost her kittens on March 1, which were VERY premature, she was due on Marh 6th and the kittens should've been fine. I didn't understand it. TWO cats that I jsut got losing their premature kittens. Well I took the one breeder to the vet Friday because her kidneys are HUGE. The PKd has started to affect her and the vet said she should NOT be bred again. I agreed with him.

I informed the breeder about the visit and that I wanted a replacement NEGATIVE cat although we wanted to keep this breeder as a pet. I was told that I misunderstood the vet, her uterus was fine and that she didn't have PKd symptoms and that the only way to diagnose it was to do a necropsy, and other things that made my mouth hang open in shock! She then wondered when I was going to pay for the cats b/c she could have those cats and be getting kittens from them. I informed her that some of the were already pregnant and kittens were on the way and that I would pay her as the kittens were sold, as per the contract.

I have been told that no one really worries about PKd except the serious show people and that people wanting pets don't even know about it and that they don't ask. I was told that since I was new to the Persian breeding that I shouldn't be worried about PKd in the cats that I have in my cattery... that's its only a *money thing*... I was told that this breeder cat *has a lot more in her* and that if I didn't want her to get her back so she could be bred.

I also found out other things from other reputable breeders about this certain breeder... things that made me go OMGosh. I told her that I could not in good conscience breed positive cats to people when I know that in as early as 2 years they could lose them. PKd is a disease and if you sell a positive cat you are in essence selling a diseased cat. Sure that cat might live a long life but at anytime, at any age, that disease can rear it's head and kill the cat. I let her know I wanted to return the cats but keep the one affected girl I took to the vet and the male cat that is negative. I was told NO. The only way I can save HER is to pay for her... oh and she wants them back by Monday! So I have til MONDAY to come up with the funds to keep Kono.

I also found out that my boy Tristan is also PKd positive and I believe he's already having kidney problems.
He was sold to me as a pet though.

So that leads me to my questions, Do responsible breeders continue to breed knowing their kittens might or will be PKd positive? If so, then don't these breeders have an obligation to their customers to inform BEFORE purchase of their status?
 

mzjazz2u

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Short answer.... NO, breeders don't have a legal obligation to inform you of a cat or kitten's PKD status. I think they should. And I think the CFA should have rules regarding this. And further, I think it should be illegal to knowingly breed a sick animal. Especially when it is a genetic disease that can be passed on.

You've already found out the hard way, that it is up to US to ask before aquirring a new cat. It's sad, but true. Stick to the PKD tested catteries list. Or ask for proof of a catteries PKD status. There are a couple catteries that are the only ones I probably would ever consider. I know there are more out there but it's hard to trust after you've seen this ugly disease rear it's head. When I got Hallie, I knew she was PKD+ (I got her as a pet) but it was represented to me that she didn't have symptoms from PKD.
I've also gotten smarter since my experience.
 

passiquepersian

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Hi Sweetie! I am so sorry you are having to go through all of this. You know I will help you out in anyway I can, and I would never treat you like this breeder is treating you. I wish there was some way to just spay Kono and then give her back.

I think it is very much so the breeder's responsibility to inform buyers of PKD if they have any chance of having it. All of my cats in my program except for one are PKD negative. I wasn't aware this girl was positive when I bought her because this breeder (the same one fluffysimba is talking about) didn't even mention a word of her being positive to me when she knew I would be using her for breeding.

Well, this cat came to me pregnant by a PKD negative male so there is a 50/50 chance that her kittens could be PKD positive. I was amazed when I heard that she was positive. Here I am breeding PKD out of my cats and she is breeding PKD in hers.

Well Lotus gave birth to 1 calico kitten. I am glad she only had one being that this kitten could have PKD. I knew it was going to be tough finding this girl a home with her possible PKD positive status.

One of my breeder friends, who has purchased 2 PKD free kitties from me in the past, one of them being ARES (RIP) (ScamperFarms kitty) and Caesar (ScamperFarms new kitty) who is his successor, has decided she would like to have this kitten in her breeding program and is willing to pay to have a PKD test done.

In my opinion, it is very important to be open and honest with anyone who is willing to give one of your kittens a good homes no matter if they are purchasing the kitten as a pet or a breeder or show kitten. Something as important as this should not be withheld and any breeder who withholds this information from a buyer is not a responsible breeder.

As a responsible breeder, I wouldn't be breeding a PKD positive cat if it weren't for this lady. Breeders are trying to get PKD out of their lines, not back in. I feel it is the breeders responsibility to breed only negative cats.

I am very open and honest with my buyers, each and everyone will tell you that including FluffySimba and ScamperFarms both.

I do what is right and not what will only "Make me look good" which is what this breeder is supposidly doing. All this breeder seems to care about is the money. She doesn't care about her kitties one bit, so much as she will breed Kono again knowing the vets advice was not too because her PKD is starting to affect her.

Ok, I think I am done rambling....LOL
 

gayef

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Since PKD is not something I would normally see in my breeding cats, I can't address this specifically, but I certainly have an opinion about it (gee, now there's a news flash, huh??? *grin*).

The answer is YES, breeders should be required to disclose health information at the time of purchase, but the sad fact is that not too many of them actually do. There is nothing to force them to do so within any of the registry associations, nor is there any recourse for buyers unless you are willing to take it to court - and you can only do that if you have a written contract signed by both the breeder and yourself which states the cats were in good health at the time of purchase. My guess is that the contract has no health guarantee, and if it does, then it has already expired and you are out of luck with it. I am so sorry, Lamb. You got taken and that is never an easy thing to swallow.
 

abymummy

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IMO

Yes,all breeders should advise buyers if the cat(s) were PKD+, Persians, Exotics and BSH.

However, some of the best Persian lines are from PKD+ cats and it is NOT the end of the world for a breeder. If you mate 2 PKD+ cats there is a 25% possiblity of getting a PKD- kitten.

This is what I would do...

Have all the 7 cats retested to confirm which is which. If a PKD+ cat is the best of the lot (female) and be subjective - look at the cat as a judge would keep her entire unless the disease has already started. Mate her to a - cat and see what happens. If you get good kittens out of it, then when you pay the breeder back, knock off the price of testing.

Now with the rest of the cats ... if the negative ones are good in standards, them keep them entire and do your matings. Neuter the others.

It entirely depends on what your contract states.

If the breeder is being a pain about it - send ALL the cats back.

Try and find a reputable breeder that will stud with you for your girl. It may be that you girl is extremely picky with her males. It happens.

Good luck.
 
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fluffysimba

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I think that it's time for CFA and Tica (hope I spelled that right) to get with the program and put their foot down. I think breeding PKd knowlingly is criminal. It's wrong to sell kittens to unsuspecting people who then will have a sick cat later on. I agree with you Mz Jazz. !!!Totally!!! I learned a painful lesson but one that I can recover from. Sadly it's Kono - my wonderful brown tabby that I want to hang onto. She just wants to be loved on and held on and a soft place for her head.

Yes I found the PKd free cattery list and you better believe for future cats I will be looking, reading and asking!

I'm sorry you lost your Hallie. She was SO young. Tristan and Kono are both 6 years old. According to research age 7 is when the real symptoms mostly develop for them.


Thank you for your support and kind words. It helps to sooth some of the pain.

C

Originally Posted by mzjazz2u

Short answer.... NO, breeders don't have a legal obligation to inform you of a cat or kitten's PKD status. I think they should. And I think the CFA should have rules regarding this. And further, I think it should be illegal to knowingly breed a sick animal. Especially when it is a genetic disease that can be passed on.

You've already found out the hard way, that it is up to US to ask before aquirring a new cat. It's sad, but true. Stick to the PKD tested catteries list. Or ask for proof of a catteries PKD status. There are a couple catteries that are the only ones I probably would ever consider. I know there are more out there but it's hard to trust after you've seen this ugly disease rear it's head. When I got Hallie, I knew she was PKD+ (I got her as a pet) but it was represented to me that she didn't have symptoms from PKD.
I've also gotten smarter since my experience.
 
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fluffysimba

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Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Your support through this has been a great help. I know I was told that I was a new breeder and shouldn't worry about PKd. I guess she considers you a new breeder too for having sold you the positive cat.

I thought about that Pat - spaying her and sending her back... but we both know what will happen then.


HUGS

Originally Posted by PassiquePersian

Hi Sweetie! I am so sorry you are having to go through all of this. You know I will help you out in anyway I can, and I would never treat you like this breeder is treating you. I wish there was some way to just spay Kono and then give her back.

I think it is very much so the breeder's responsibility to inform buyers of PKD if they have any chance of having it. All of my cats in my program except for one are PKD negative. I wasn't aware this girl was positive when I bought her because this breeder (the same one fluffysimba is talking about) didn't even mention a word of her being positive to me when she knew I would be using her for breeding.

Well, this cat came to me pregnant by a PKD negative male so there is a 50/50 chance that her kittens could be PKD positive. I was amazed when I heard that she was positive. Here I am breeding PKD out of my cats and she is breeding PKD in hers.

Well Lotus gave birth to 1 calico kitten. I am glad she only had one being that this kitten could have PKD. I knew it was going to be tough finding this girl a home with her possible PKD positive status.

One of my breeder friends, who has purchased 2 PKD free kitties from me in the past, one of them being ARES (RIP) (ScamperFarms kitty) and Caesar (ScamperFarms new kitty) who is his successor, has decided she would like to have this kitten in her breeding program and is willing to pay to have a PKD test done.

In my opinion, it is very important to be open and honest with anyone who is willing to give one of your kittens a good homes no matter if they are purchasing the kitten as a pet or a breeder or show kitten. Something as important as this should not be withheld and any breeder who withholds this information from a buyer is not a responsible breeder.

As a responsible breeder, I wouldn't be breeding a PKD positive cat if it weren't for this lady. Breeders are trying to get PKD out of their lines, not back in. I feel it is the breeders responsibility to breed only negative cats.

I am very open and honest with my buyers, each and everyone will tell you that including FluffySimba and ScamperFarms both.

I do what is right and not what will only "Make me look good" which is what this breeder is supposidly doing. All this breeder seems to care about is the money. She doesn't care about her kitties one bit, so much as she will breed Kono again knowing the vets advice was not too because her PKD is starting to affect her.

Ok, I think I am done rambling....LOL
 
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fluffysimba

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I got taken - that's for sure and certain! The hurt to my heart is the worst - worrying about Kono. She deserves better than this.


Originally Posted by gayef

The answer is YES, breeders should be required to disclose health information at the time of purchase, but the sad fact is that not too many of them actually do. There is nothing to force them to do so within any of the registry associations, nor is there any recourse for buyers unless you are willing to take it to court - and you can only do that if you have a written contract signed by both the breeder and yourself which states the cats were in good health at the time of purchase. My guess is that the contract has no health guarantee, and if it does, then it has already expired and you are out of luck with it. I am so sorry, Lamb. You got taken and that is never an easy thing to swallow.
 
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fluffysimba

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I went round and round about this with my conscience and heart and mind. I spoke with my friends. I spoke with other breeders and their opinion. I was going to give some of them back. I was going to give none of them back. I was going to not give them back but basically do what you said - the goal being have them tested over the next months and eventually neuter/spaying them. However, it came down to what was said in the emails. The blatant greed as the mitigating factor. I wanted to keep some of the cats but she said NO. She wants them back for breeding so she can get more kittens and money. I asked for replacements for the positive cats and that was met with a NO. She sees nothing wrong with positive cats so impossible to negotiate anything.

Yes I do have some breeder friends, Passique has already offered her boys.
It took 3 boys before my Delilah was interested. I think she's in love. It's too bad I can't keep that boy for her. I had gotten him for her and my future breeder Mimi. But the breeder won't negotiate at all.

I hope you can understand where I'm coming from - wanting to wash my hands of her and all. Either way is tough. I hope I made sense - I'm SO tired and frazzled right now.

C


Originally Posted by Abymummy

IMO

Yes,all breeders should advise buyers if the cat(s) were PKD+, Persians, Exotics and BSH.

However, some of the best Persian lines are from PKD+ cats and it is NOT the end of the world for a breeder. If you mate 2 PKD+ cats there is a 25% possiblity of getting a PKD- kitten.

This is what I would do...

Have all the 7 cats retested to confirm which is which. If a PKD+ cat is the best of the lot (female) and be subjective - look at the cat as a judge would keep her entire unless the disease has already started. Mate her to a - cat and see what happens. If you get good kittens out of it, then when you pay the breeder back, knock off the price of testing.

Now with the rest of the cats ... if the negative ones are good in standards, them keep them entire and do your matings. Neuter the others.

It entirely depends on what your contract states.

If the breeder is being a pain about it - send ALL the cats back.

Try and find a reputable breeder that will stud with you for your girl. It may be that you girl is extremely picky with her males. It happens.

Good luck.
 

goldenkitty45

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Is there anything in the contract that says about the cats being tested for genetic disease? If she knew the cats were postive and didn't disclose it, there should be something about breech of contract and you could take her to small claims court.
 
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fluffysimba

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Sadly there isn't. she doesn't even give a guarantee of health or anything. I guess she can't because two of her cats came here with ringworm and I know she's given other RW affected cats to others. I've been treating these cats and have to keep them isolated from the rest. She breeds PKd cats and that is a disease. So no, she didn't mention anything about health guarantee.

Bottom line is I trusted where I should not have trusted. I'm TOO trusting! You'd think I'd learn to be cut throat at times. *sigh* The only thing she did was do a breach of ethics. An ethical and responsible breeder would've made sure that another breeder knew about PKd positive cats before they left her home. She doesn't even have ANY thing about a health guarantee on her website. She's sneaky... I know she says she sends the Persian kittens to their new homes at 8 weeks so there is less chance of them getting sick with something. I knw I was surprised at that.

I also learned that the kitten I purchased for a future breeder was sold to this unethical breeder with a signed contract that she was to be sold to a pet home. She has no breeding rights on the kitten but she sure sold her to me knowing I wanted her for a breeder. *shakes head with disgust*

I still wish I could get the funds to save Kono.
 

epona

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I'm quite shocked (but not altogether surprised iykwim).

Not being into Persians/Exotics I don't know a lot about PKD, but I can tell you right off that the GCCF here in the UK will suspend and fine any breeder who passes on a kitten or cat which has ringworm - they take it quite seriously. I don't know how other registering bodies deal with things like this, but I would certainly suggest approaching them and asking for advice about the situation.
 
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fluffysimba

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I don't know how CFA feels with any of what has happened but I will be finding out. Breeders should be ethical in their breeding practices. I guess I just don't understand the monetary greed.
 

epona

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Originally Posted by fluffysimba

I don't know how CFA feels with any of what has happened but I will be finding out. Breeders should be ethical in their breeding practices. I guess I just don't understand the monetary greed.
I went and checked the GCCF suspensions list and found that several breeders had been penalised with lifetime suspension (ie. they can't register any kittens they breed, enter in a GCCF show etc for the rest of their lives) for things like 'failing to notify the GCCF of ringworm infection', 'accepting a queen to stud whilst under quarantine for ringworm', 'failure to adhere to ringworm procedures' etc. Several other fines with temporary suspensions for similar breach of rules.

Nothing about PKD, but I would definitely contact the relevant organisations and see what they say, even if some people do use PKD+ cats in breeding programmes they should advise new owners of PKD status, and passing on cats with ringworm is horrendous as it spreads like wildfire and is a pain to treat and eradicate - lets hope that they take this sort of thing as seriously as the GCCF do!
 

reddicequeen

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This may be a dumb question, but why can't you post on here WHO these breeders are so others dont get burned by being too trusting? It would make a good thread *chuckling*
Lets face it..you are purchasing a pedigreed cat because you want to be sure its free of genetic type problems, and healthy. I would want to know which breeders to avoid.
I think its downright criminal that this particular breeder wants the cats back to continue the breeding of a defective cat.
A good breeder would give you a health guarantee. Sorry you got burned....hugs
 
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fluffysimba

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I would love to do what you say. I haven't stated anything that I can't back up with proof - it's all documented in emails. It's just I have a persian that is bred to one of these cats that has to go back. I want to be able to get those kittens registered so have to be careful, I'm sure.

I find it appalling she wants them back and see NOTHING wrong with breeding these defective cats BUT she doesnt' see them as defective - if they can have babies, make babies - that's what she wants.

I will gladly PM anyone who requests the name of the breeder and her cattery site.

So you have a PM.

Originally Posted by reddicequeen

This may be a dumb question, but why can't you post on here WHO these breeders are so others dont get burned by being too trusting? It would make a good thread *chuckling*
Lets face it..you are purchasing a pedigreed cat because you want to be sure its free of genetic type problems, and healthy. I would want to know which breeders to avoid.
I think its downright criminal that this particular breeder wants the cats back to continue the breeding of a defective cat.
A good breeder would give you a health guarantee. Sorry you got burned....hugs
 

gayef

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We don't allow the names of such breeders to be posted here due to several issues but chief among them is the liability to TCS and it's owners. We don't have access to, nor would we police any messages sent via PM or even better yet, via private email so if you are interested in knowing about such things, the stance of the site is to keep it private and not involve TCS. Thanks in advance.
 

pat

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Originally Posted by mzjazz2u

Short answer.... NO, breeders don't have a legal obligation to inform you of a cat or kitten's PKD status. I think they should.
Actually, I think they do. In NY state, when I was still living in NY and still had a small breeding program, before I left in the mid 1990's a Pet Lemon Law came into effect. You had to notify your buyers of their rights..which included a kitten/cat free of defect, a 1 year guarantee, the right to money back, or vet bills paid for, and more. I don't clearly remember all of it, but I used their contract as part of mine.

I don't know how many states have a Pet Lemon Law, it would be worth checking into.
 

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I know we have one here in Minnesota! Def worth checking into. I still cant belive this "breeder"
 

pat

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I wanted to read through the rest of the replies before saying the rest of what I think.
I believe, know that there can be folks knowledgeable about a breed without doing a lot of showing, who have the breeds best interest at heart.

That said, so many things you've mentioned this breeder said raised red flags.

It is beyond ignorant to ignore what pkd can do to a cat and continue to breed it, it is beyond belief to me that a statement would be made that only the heavy show folks care..what?? I don't think anyone should breed who does not clearly understand the breed's standard and strives to produce the best example of the breed that they can, and the healthiest examples of the breed.

I am so sorry you got taken. Please check your state to see if a Pet Lemon Law exists...she has to follow it even if she didn't include it in her contract..it might help you keep the one(s) sold to you as pets.

If this cattery is registered with any association, please write them, document what has happened, what she is admitting she is doing. She needs to be banned. Point blank.

I'm all for a person's right to have a business (believe me) but this is cruelty to animals, deceptive, ignorant and wrong.

Can you tell this makes me
 
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