Disclosing PKd before purchase - Is it your responsibility as a breeder?

scamperfarms

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Originally Posted by Pat & Alix

I wanted to read through the rest of the replies before saying the rest of what I think.
I believe, know that there can be folks knowledgeable about a breed without doing a lot of showing, who have the breeds best interest at heart.

That said, so many things you've mentioned this breeder said raised red flags.

It is beyond ignorant to ignore what pkd can do to a cat and continue to breed it, it is beyond belief to me that a statement would be made that only the heavy show folks care..what?? I don't think anyone should breed who does not clearly understand the breed's standard and strives to produce the best example of the breed that they can, and the healthiest examples of the breed.

I am so sorry you got taken. Please check your state to see if a Pet Lemon Law exists...she has to follow it even if she didn't include it in her contract..it might help you keep the one(s) sold to you as pets.

If this cattery is registered with any association, please write them, document what has happened, what she is admitting she is doing. She needs to be banned. Point blank.

I'm all for a person's right to have a business (believe me) but this is cruelty to animals, deceptive, ignorant and wrong.

Can you tell this makes me
Yup me too! And I for one, am gonna be calling CFA myself. although, I did not personally get any of this womans cats. Fluffysimba is my friend. And I did speak to this woman first hand. When I went to pick up Caesar.

I was at the time interested in one of her females. When we got there and I asked to see the female, I was told she was in quarentine because she had a "fungus" (i am going to assume ringworm) but that she would send me pictures. Ok..well fair enough. We were not taken into the "cattery" part of the house (she had just changed things over from when Fluffysimba had gone before so I understand) ok..

So some talking, and what have you..she asked if I wanted to put a deposit down on the female. (non refundable) I politely said I was very interested but without more photos, or seeing the female I couldnt say for sure if she was right for my program.

So more talking, and my mentioning that I needed to get going so I didnt miss my plane she went on to tell me that the Queen I was interested in was bred, due March 11th. And if i wanted to pay for her in Full..right than I could take her with me.


Firstly, she was so close to being due I would never put her through the stress of a Long plane ride!...secondly Uh, didnt she JUST tell me I couldnt SEE her..because she had a "fungus"... and of course thirdly I can only take one cat at a time unless they are siblings.

So needless to say I am glad I walked from that one..
 
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  • #22

fluffysimba

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Originally Posted by gayef

We don't allow the names of such breeders to be posted here due to several issues but chief among them is the liability to TCS and it's owners. We don't have access to, nor would we police any messages sent via PM or even better yet, via private email so if you are interested in knowing about such things, the stance of the site is to keep it private and not involve TCS. Thanks in advance.
Yep it's definately a liability and for now, I need to be watching what I do. I'm going to let everyone I can know what happened but it not happen for months from now.

I won't put the cattery name on here but I will give it if someone contacts me privately.
 
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fluffysimba

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I will do some calling and see what I can find for our state. I highly doubt we have a pet lemon law here. Kansas is very *little people* unfriendly... their laws screw the consumers and employees usually.

Here is what CFA said on the matter...

Your complaint is assigned a docket # and copied to the breeder
named, attaching a letter from CFA requesting they submit their
comments relative to this complaint and encouraging the breeder to
come to some type of settlement or agreement with you. This is the
most we can do; however, your complaint, along with any response
received, is reviewed by the Protest Committee Chairperson and stays
on file for CFA private information so that a closer look may be given to
a party whose name repeatedly shows up. You will only be notified if
your complaint is to receive any action beyond our letter to the breeder.

I think that is awful INACTION when talking about unethical behavior.


Originally Posted by Pat & Alix

Actually, I think they do. In NY state, when I was still living in NY and still had a small breeding program, before I left in the mid 1990's a Pet Lemon Law came into effect. You had to notify your buyers of their rights..which included a kitten/cat free of defect, a 1 year guarantee, the right to money back, or vet bills paid for, and more. I don't clearly remember all of it, but I used their contract as part of mine.

I don't know how many states have a Pet Lemon Law, it would be worth checking into.
 

oweerak

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Hi,
I am sorry to hear about your bad experience with a breeder. I am a persian breeder but fairly new under 2 years. I test all of my cats even those I buy from other breeders that claim they are negative even if I have the paperwork. I test them through tthe DNA test through Davis in California.
But, many breeders do not test. And then there are those like me that test everything.
Many breeders will keep a PKD positive cat if it is valuable to improving on the Persian breed and standards and improves their program by breeding it to a negative cat, testing all the offspring and only keeping the negatives and neutering all of the positives.
i believe the PKD status should be told to the buyer either as a pet or breeder so that the future owner is prepared. Many times the cat could have a very long life or a shortened one, you never know.
Also ultrasounds are not so reliable, as ultrasounds can scan the cat and see not cysts but then a DNA comes back positive.
I think you are being a very reliable breed and great thoughts.
 
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fluffysimba

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I'm SOOO angry!!! I just received an email that was sent out by this breeder and her partner.

Supposedly they have a kitten that is negative from a positive to positive mating. They were shocked that the kitten was negative. This breeder called UC Davis supposedly and talked with Dr. Lyons there (supposedly). According to this email Dr. Lyons herself claims that it's okay to keep breeding the positive cats and not to spay/neuter them. I read an article myself... http://faculty.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/fa.../Sites/pkd.htm

Does this sound like she's wanting you to breed your positive cats?

So they have mass emailed this email claiming it's jolly okay to keep breeding as planned!!!! Either way, I'm calling UC Davis tomorrow to ask these questions. The only reason the kitten is negative is b/c it's a rare 25% that can be negative in a positive to positive mating. It's a autosomal DOMINANT gene. The majority will be positive - it's so rare to get a negative from such a mating. I don't think the end justifies the means of getting one.
 
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fluffysimba

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Thank you for your kind words. I too am new at this. I should have 2 litters this year and I am excited about them. Both will be PKd negative kittens. Crossing fingers and toes for some torties, calicos and dilute calico's.


I'm glad you are doing the testing too. I plan to go ahead and test all my breeding cats too even though I know the parents are neg. I'd like the paperwork on them to show.


I think it is ignorant to not test for a disease that can shorten the life of your customers beloved pet. I wish I had been told upfront that Tristan had PKd. I could've started watchign him a LOT sooner for symptoms. I can't save Kono but I can make my Tristan's life a bit easier.

Anyway, I think this experience has solidified what I already felt about PKd. I knew about it but didn't have a clue how bad it could be nor that breeders would KNOWLINGLY keep breeding for positive cats. I'm now more than ever vehemently opposed to PKd positive breeding.

Charity

Originally Posted by oweerak

Hi,
I am sorry to hear about your bad experience with a breeder. I am a persian breeder but fairly new under 2 years. I test all of my cats even those I buy from other breeders that claim they are negative even if I have the paperwork. I test them through tthe DNA test through Davis in California.
But, many breeders do not test. And then there are those like me that test everything.
Many breeders will keep a PKD positive cat if it is valuable to improving on the Persian breed and standards and improves their program by breeding it to a negative cat, testing all the offspring and only keeping the negatives and neutering all of the positives.
i believe the PKD status should be told to the buyer either as a pet or breeder so that the future owner is prepared. Many times the cat could have a very long life or a shortened one, you never know.
Also ultrasounds are not so reliable, as ultrasounds can scan the cat and see not cysts but then a DNA comes back positive.
I think you are being a very reliable breed and great thoughts.
 

merrytreecats

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Originally Posted by fluffysimba

So they have mass emailed this email claiming it's jolly okay to keep breeding as planned!!!! Either way, I'm calling UC Davis tomorrow to ask these questions. The only reason the kitten is negative is b/c it's a rare 25% that can be negative in a positive to positive mating. It's a autosomal DOMINANT gene. The majority will be positive - it's so rare to get a negative from such a mating. I don't think the end justifies the means of getting one.
Actually a one in 3 chance {33%?} of getting a negative--because in its homozygous form, the PKD gene is lethal and such kittens never survive to be born.

I hope you can get everything sorted out and disassociate yourself completely from this breeder. If any cats/kittens that I rehome have ever had any health problems or flaws I let the owners know. It's only right to do so.
 

otisbird

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I am on the bottom of this food chain with respect to PKD. I work with a persian rescue group in Southern California. The sad stories about PKD cats who are pets is hart braking. My complaints to cat fancy organizations would carry no weight. I was hoping that the top of the chain had this under control and we would be seeing less of these persians in rescue... But after reading your posts, I guess not. This is a sad statement to see in one of the oldest breeds in your organization. Very sad...
 

otisbird

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I forgot to mention, I have a positive PKD persian and she is 17 years old. But does suffer with it. I do the best I can for her.
I had so hoped to report back to my group of volunteers that your organizations had a handle on this. Too sad.
 
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fluffysimba

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Otis - It is a very sad thing that nothing is really being done by CFA for this. I think the onlything to do is for legit breeders to put serious pressure on CFA *and* these breeders who are knowlingly breeding the positive cats. If someone had PKd cats and needed to replace them, fine, breed to negative cats and get a replacement negative kitten, spay/neuter the positive and eventually the PKd would be extinct. ARGH it makes me SOooo angry.

Can you tell me what you do for your PKd positive cat?

How many cats do you see with PKd and can you tell us more about them and their issues?

Charity
 
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