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post #31 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by semiferal View Post
A head of lettuce also cannot feel or suffer. It's intuitive common sense that killing a cow or a chicken or a cat or a dog is a far different thing from pulling a carrot from the ground. Saying "it's killing something no matter what" is rationalizing against something that we all know at the core of our beings.
You know, I dislike the idea that plants cannot feel or suffer, and thus it is ok to kill them. Life is beautiful, which is what I know at the core of *my* being. The life of an animal is NOT more beautiful or more miraculous than that of a plant, and sentience (arguable for animal species, but Ill ignore that debate)alone seems a very tenuous place to decide something is ok to kill or not.
ANyways, back on plants feeling and suffering. It is easy for you to say that because you are using human dictionary definitions of feeling and suffering, along with all the emotional connotations that go along with those words. Ill specifically discuss the feeling of pain, as that is the "feeling" that seems to be under attack. We "hurt" when we feel "pain". Pain IS a mechanism to signal to the organism that its life is in danger/being threatened, a mechanism that gives the organism a chance to respond to the threat. That may sound too basic, but really, pain IS that simple: It is a warning, and causes events to stop/prevent/fix whats gone wrong. ALL plants certainly sense their environment, and profoundly react in ways that minimize threats to life/propagation. SO whatever you have chosen to call it, plants certainly posess systems that cause them to experience the FUNCTIONAL EQUIVALENT of what you or I call "pain", or feeling if you will. Now, on that note, Ill agree that my above argument seems a bit like bunk even to me - certainly I do value the cute furries more than the green with stems, but I just hate the attitude that plants are these passive little green things. "Value" is a human concept that we choose to assign to things because of our feelings , it is NOT something inherent to the core of being. It is just NOT that simple imo.
As for the actual topic Id rather eat from a cow than a tissue culture too. Different muscles taste better. Cows raised in different places taste better (I like Alberta beef WAY WAY WAY more than I liked beef in Ontario as a random example). That said, I would eat the meat if it were there, and then decide if I liked it enough to eat it again!
post #32 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by maddensmom View Post
The idea of meat from a lab makes me a little queasy! If it can help with world hunger though, I'm all for it. We'll just have to wait and see how it progresses.


On the note of "playing God" by slaughtering cows and such to eat them...


Deuteronomy 12

“These are the decrees and regulations you must be careful to obey when you live in the land that the Lord, the God of your ancestors, is giving you. You must obey them as long as you live.....

15 “But you may butcher your animals and eat their meat in any town whenever you want. You may freely eat the animals with which the Lord your God blesses you. All of you, whether ceremonially clean or unclean, may eat that meat, just as you now eat gazelle and deer. 16 But you must not eat the blood. You must pour it out on the ground like water."


Just my two cents...
Well as I said in my previous post,There is a big difference between 'man thinking he
is god' and ' Playing God'

As you're probably aware I don't live my life based on (and I don't mean any offence but
this is My Opinion) ' 'Religous' Life guides' There are too many of them and at the end
of the day there are too many contradictions to be anywhere believeable.
I believe every ' 'Religous' life guide' is written for the sole purpose of the weak,and in
so the people writing them and interpreting and changing the philosophy behind them
do so for their own ends,That is why there are so many variations of 'religions'. It is the
strong manipulating the weaker more vulnerable.But thats just my opinion

Anyway back to the point that quote says ....

"But you must not eat the blood. You must pour it out on the ground like water."

There is still blood in the meat when you buy it !!You can never get the blood out of the muscles.

But Did you know what happens to the blood from an animal that is slaughtered?
This is where it goes.....

http://www.purehealthsystems.com/render.html

Also it might be ' Legal' at this time for a muslim or a jew to slaughter an animal,on
British streets,In any town,But they are selling that same meat in Kebab houses and take aways in the UK to NON muslims and NON jews and THAT is illegal.But they still sell it to people who don't know the difference and they get away with it.Because of loopholes in the Law.

Just my tuppence worth


Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
we all deal in death, be it meat, or that salad you are eating. Something had to die. or not get the chance to grow. that head of lettce just does not make such a mess.
That's a joke....Right
Well,whatever......



Quote:
Originally Posted by Februa View Post
You know, I dislike the idea that plants cannot feel or suffer, and thus it is ok to kill them. Life is beautiful
Sorry,but where do you get that from?I could rip a branch from a tree and it will still live,Or I could tear a few leaves off a lettuce head or a celery stick or even take an apple from a tree but it won't kill any of them??They will still live.If that's what you consider a life??
A plant will not bleed to death in excruciating pain if I rip or cut off one of its' limbs.

Go hug a tree
post #33 of 54
Plants dont BLEED???? WHat is SAP>??
post #34 of 54
reminds me of a book, i have no mouth but i must scream.
unless humans learn to get there engery from the sun, we have to kill something be it animal or plant. plants wont bleed death or scream. but who knows maybe they want to.

Each to there own, but could someone order me a double cheese burger please.( and not one made in a lab)
post #35 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by furryferals View Post

Sorry,but where do you get that from?I could rip a branch from a tree and it will still live,Or I could tear a few leaves off a lettuce head or a celery stick or even take an apple from a tree but it won't kill any of them??They will still live.If that's what you consider a life??
A plant will not bleed to death in excruciating pain if I rip or cut off one of its' limbs.

Go hug a tree
I think you have completely missed the point. Who harvests lettuce one leaf at a time? Who harvests celery by the leaf??? We werent discussing an apple from a tree, the specific example used I believe was a carrot, but thats a moot point - the point remains that it is not life you hold sacred, but sentience. So how do you feel about people in PVS (permanent vegetative state)? I mean, there is no consciousness there. There is no pain there. By your argument, it would be ok to say, harvest a limb, eye, or organ from a person in PVS as they would not be capable of "suffering". Of course, it seems the definition of "suffer" is specific to your feelings, and hey - I certainly use the definition to fit my feelings too. I just dont deny that it is "feeling" and not "fact". As far as suffering anyways....well I would argue that an inhumane death in a slaughterhouse cant really be worse then being killed and eaten alive which last time I checked - is the norm for an animal. Animals dont die in their sleep of old age surrounded by friends. And for the record, I could rip off a cows leg, and it would live. I could certainly rip off its ear, and leave a bleeding festering wound, and it would live. I dont *really* need to graphically describe the things we can do to animals and have them live do I??? Because those 2 examples, are humane compared to others (hey, it turns my stomach too, but its the way things are - all mammals can continue to live following the infliction of a major injury). Indeed, I would argue that a farm life, free from predators, with water available, veterinary care available would be preferable to any animal than living in the wild with threats of predation, pestilence, drought....indeed, the "natural" death of an animal is fraught with suffering, pain, turmoil and fear. And that is completely outside of human involvement.
post #36 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Februa View Post
You know, I dislike the idea that plants cannot feel or suffer, and thus it is ok to kill them. Life is beautiful, which is what I know at the core of *my* being. The life of an animal is NOT more beautiful or more miraculous than that of a plant, and sentience (arguable for animal species, but Ill ignore that debate)alone seems a very tenuous place to decide something is ok to kill or not.
ANyways, back on plants feeling and suffering. It is easy for you to say that because you are using human dictionary definitions of feeling and suffering, along with all the emotional connotations that go along with those words. Ill specifically discuss the feeling of pain, as that is the "feeling" that seems to be under attack. We "hurt" when we feel "pain". Pain IS a mechanism to signal to the organism that its life is in danger/being threatened, a mechanism that gives the organism a chance to respond to the threat. That may sound too basic, but really, pain IS that simple: It is a warning, and causes events to stop/prevent/fix whats gone wrong. ALL plants certainly sense their environment, and profoundly react in ways that minimize threats to life/propagation. SO whatever you have chosen to call it, plants certainly posess systems that cause them to experience the FUNCTIONAL EQUIVALENT of what you or I call "pain", or feeling if you will. Now, on that note, Ill agree that my above argument seems a bit like bunk even to me - certainly I do value the cute furries more than the green with stems, but I just hate the attitude that plants are these passive little green things. "Value" is a human concept that we choose to assign to things because of our feelings , it is NOT something inherent to the core of being. It is just NOT that simple imo.
As for the actual topic Id rather eat from a cow than a tissue culture too. Different muscles taste better. Cows raised in different places taste better (I like Alberta beef WAY WAY WAY more than I liked beef in Ontario as a random example). That said, I would eat the meat if it were there, and then decide if I liked it enough to eat it again!
I also don't agree with the gratuitous desecration of plants. However, my point holds - if one values plant life, then the imperative doesn't change. Eating plants directly, rather than feeding them to animals and then eating the animals, results in less plant death.

I have never held the idea that plants are "passive little green things", but since I have to eat in order to survive, I'm going to pass on eating creatures that I am absolutely, 100% certain are capable of suffering and eat those that, while alive, may or may not be capable of suffering. We know that animals experience pain pretty much the same way that we do and that's reason enough for me to say that they are not food.
post #37 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by theimp98 View Post
reminds me of a book, i have no mouth but i must scream.
unless humans learn to get there engery from the sun, we have to kill something be it animal or plant. plants wont bleed death or scream. but who knows maybe they want to.

Each to there own, but could someone order me a double cheese burger please.( and not one made in a lab)
Ummm that is what I meant to say ... Thank you for putting it in well written english
post #38 of 54
Thread Starter 
I am kind of sorry I started this debate.
Now for a bit of comic relief.......

Scientist will soon discover that when eaten raw vegtables scream at a high frequensy that humans can not hear. As a result vegitarins will be reduced to eating their own body hair.

Please don't take offence to that it is ment soley to be a joke, I just thought it was relevent to the do plants feel pain part of the topic.

Yes I do think they fell pain. I had one plant that died during the winter because it got to cold and I had to rmove most of its leaves. The rest of the plant suffered and it died. So yes they do feel pain.

Did anyone see the movie Ferngully?
post #39 of 54
I wouldn't suddenly start eating meat if it was raised in a lab, I dont like the thought of it, and dont think it will do much to help anything.
post #40 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarmasMom View Post
Did anyone see the movie Ferngully?
I loved that movie.
post #41 of 54
In 8th grade I wrote a report on plants and tropism for a science class. It's about the *involuntary* response of plants to external stimuli. For example, phototropism refers to a plant turning toward a light source. Plants don't respond to sunlight because "it feels good", which by contrast is a reason many animals do respond to heat/sunlight.

I don't believe that plants feel discomfort or pain because they don't have central nervous systems. There's no mechanism to register discomfort/pain. That doesn't mean I don't have respect for the fact that they are alive. I love gardening and each spring it's wonderful to see the first shoots start to poke through the ground.

Yet there's a huge difference between animals who are sentient (aware of themselves and having the capacity to suffer) and plants. Though they are living organisms which respond to environmental changes, and can die, plants are incapable of experiencing suffering or pain. The main reason that I'm a vegetarian is because animals have central nervous systems as humans do, and are capable of pain and suffering.

Meat grown in a lab is no more appetizing to me than meat in its original form.
post #42 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by KTLynn View Post
In 8th grade I wrote a report on plants and tropism for a science class. It's about the *involuntary* response of plants to external stimuli. For example, phototropism refers to a plant turning toward a light source. Plants don't respond to sunlight because "it feels good", which by contrast is a reason many animals do respond to heat/sunlight.

I don't believe that plants feel discomfort or pain because they don't have central nervous systems. There's no mechanism to register discomfort/pain. That doesn't mean I don't have respect for the fact that they are alive. I love gardening and each spring it's wonderful to see the first shoots start to poke through the ground.

Yet there's a huge difference between animals who are sentient (aware of themselves and having the capacity to suffer) and plants. Though they are living organisms which respond to environmental changes, and can die, plants are incapable of experiencing suffering or pain. The main reason that I'm a vegetarian is because animals have central nervous systems as humans do, and are capable of pain and suffering.

Meat grown in a lab is no more appetizing to me than meat in its original form.
Since it boils down to a nervous system for you, I suppose you wouldn't have a problem eating a sea sponge? They're a delicacy in some places you know.
post #43 of 54
As far as being "real" versus "fake", the meat you pick up at the supermarket has also been processed beyond recognition. My guess is that this is hardly different.

As for eating meat in general....I don't tend to think it's inherently cruel. Chimpanzees and Bonobos (according to the people at the Zoo that I asked) will hunt small animals and eat them...these are our closest biological relatives. Our systems, though not equipped to handle the amount of processed meat we put in them these days, certainly can process some meat. It's milk and dairy that we've only recently (within the past 7,000 years or so) started to be able to break down, and the vast majority of people are still lactose-intolerant to some degree.

The part of meat eating that IS cruel is the way we raise, slaughter, house and process our meat. THe industry hurts animals and it hurts farmers and it hurts our health. IMO, there is nothing GOOD about the meat industry as a whole. If raising meat in a lab is what starts chipping away at the boulder of factory farming, then I'm all for it.
post #44 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionessrampant View Post
As for eating meat in general....I don't tend to think it's inherently cruel. Chimpanzees and Bonobos (according to the people at the Zoo that I asked) will hunt small animals and eat them...these are our closest biological relatives. Our systems, though not equipped to handle the amount of processed meat we put in them these days, certainly can process some meat. It's milk and dairy that we've only recently (within the past 7,000 years or so) started to be able to break down, and the vast majority of people are still lactose-intolerant to some degree.
Actually, in the paleolithic period we ate a lot more meat than we currently consume. We also ate a lot fewer veggies (especially the ones that have to be processed like grains, beans, tubers, many fruits and nuts, etc.). We have evolved to our current diet over a relatively short period of time, thanks to the agricultural revolution.

Thats not to say that we should go back to that, but our bodies can handle a diet with large meat consumption fairly well. As for it being processed, I'm not really sure what you mean. Do you mean chemicals/hormones introduced to the animal or do you mean like ground beef? Or maybe preservatives? All of those things, unfortunately, are also found in most of the veggies the majority of us consume.

I'm lactose intolerant though. In fact, I think milk is gross. I don't even like coconut milk! It will be a while longer before we can evolve to accept that into our diet as well as we have grains/beans/tubers/etc.
post #45 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt View Post
Since it boils down to a nervous system for you, I suppose you wouldn't have a problem eating a sea sponge? They're a delicacy in some places you know.

Whether or not a particular organism (to use your example, a sea sponge) lacks a nervous system isn't the sole criterion I'd use in deciding if I'd eat it. By the way, in addition to lacking a nervous system, sponges don't have muscles or internal organs either. They're far more "plantlike" than animal in this way.

In some parts of the world, sheep testicles and monkey brains are considered delicacies. I don't think many meat-eaters on this board would consider eating those things simply by virtue of the fact that some folks think they're "delicacies"!
post #46 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by KTLynn View Post
Whether or not a particular organism (to use your example, a sea sponge) lacks a nervous system isn't the sole criterion I'd use in deciding if I'd eat it. By the way, in addition to lacking a nervous system, sponges don't have muscles or internal organs either. They're far more "plantlike" than animal in this way.

In some parts of the world, sheep testicles and monkey brains are considered delicacies. I don't think many meat-eaters on this board would consider eating those things simply by virtue of the fact that some folks think they're "delicacies"!
True, they are very plantlike, but they are most definitely in the animal kingdom. In fact, its speculated that they may be an evolutionary link between plants and animals.

Anyway, maybe I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that the nervous system was the reason you don't eat animals.

For the record, I've eaten pig testicles and cows brains before (my grandfather was a butcher). Not really my cup-o-tea, but I can't judge anyone who does eat something I consider strange until I've tried it myself. And thank god for that, because otherwise I'd have never fallen head over heels for sushi!
post #47 of 54
The long list of diseases and ailments that a vegetarian diet can lessen your chances of developing suggest that the human body is in no way really meant to eat meat often. http://www.eatright.org/cps/rde/xchg...3_ENU_HTML.htm (open the non-members pdf)

What our ancestors ate is by no means established fact. Our eating patterns, digestive systems, teeth, metabolisms suggest that though maybe we ate meat, it isn't what we really evolved to eat. Yes, eating meat did help humans develop past being gatherers, but why does that imply that we are supposed to eat meat? Lots of animals will eat things they don't normally eat when they have to.

And what other meat-eating animal has to cook it first?
post #48 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
The long list of diseases and ailments that a vegetarian diet can lessen your chances of developing suggest that the human body is in no way really meant to eat meat often. http://www.eatright.org/cps/rde/xchg...3_ENU_HTML.htm (open the non-members pdf)

What our ancestors ate is by no means established fact. Our eating patterns, digestive systems, teeth, metabolisms suggest that though maybe we ate meat, it isn't what we really evolved to eat. Yes, eating meat did help humans develop past being gatherers, but why does that imply that we are supposed to eat meat? Lots of animals will eat things they don't normally eat when they have to.

And what other meat-eating animal has to cook it first?
Exercise and a BALANCED diet will prevent just as many, if not more ailments. But that wasn't my point anyway, to compare vegetarian diets to omnivorous diets. And I wasn't implying, either, that we SHOULD eat meat. The only point that I was making (and still am making) is that our bodies have been more than capable of handling meat for a long, long time.

As for cooking, most of our veggies have to be cooked or processed in some way. And again, I love sushi and I eat my steaks very rare.
post #49 of 54
Eeew that sounds like eating fake meat and fake food. Ugh I don't think I'd try it.
post #50 of 54
As a florist i sincerly don't think plants feel pain the way people/animals do. I work with flowers/plants all day long- i am constantly around them- what's next....people won't buy an arrangement or corsage, because the flower was 'injured' in the making of it? seriously now Sure- plants will wilt/die if not properly taken care of- and the moment you cut a flower and make it a cut flower and no longer a plant- it begins to die...yes that is true- but it is not the same as people/animals feeling pain/death. What's next, we can't walk on the dirt outside because we might hurt it's feelings? There has to be a limit to the crazinesss at some point.
post #51 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarryEyedTiGeR View Post
As a florist i sincerly don't think plants feel pain the way people/animals do. I work with flowers/plants all day long- i am constantly around them- what's next....people won't buy an arrangement or corsage, because the flower was 'injured' in the making of it? seriously now Sure- plants will wilt/die if not properly taken care of- and the moment you cut a flower and make it a cut flower and no longer a plant- it begins to die...yes that is true- but it is not the same as people/animals feeling pain/death. What's next, we can't walk on the dirt outside because we might hurt it's feelings? There has to be a limit to the crazinesss at some point.
thats my point, if you cut it or pick it be it, for something to look pretty, or to eat. then you just killed it. thus death. your still killed something living. just cause it cant scream or bleed. does not make it less living. We still live off of death be it from animal or plant.

hmm now where did i put my double cheese burger with lettuce, onion , and tomato..hmm
post #52 of 54
oh heck - I´ve just sat here munching on some celery sticks........I´m sure I heard something
post #53 of 54
in answer to the original question...I might try it, but I find the idea kind of distasteful, something about it seems kind of soylent greenish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
And what other meat-eating animal has to cook it first?
There was a paper published by some harvard scientists in 2003 regarding this very question. They suggested that it may take as little as 5000 years for humans to adapt to dietary changes. Some others have cited evidence of cooking as far back as 800,000 years ago, to the earliest homo erectus use of fire. Perhaps a group came across a burned carcass and decided to sample a taste. Maybe it was to their liking, or maybe the meat they took for later lasted a little bit longer then raw and therefore they could save more for later. It wouldn't take long to recognize the benefits.

It is conceivable that one could eat meat and animal products and not cook them...from steak tartare to raw fish and shellfish. This would have been easier a thousand years ago when chemical pollutants didn't cause as many problems. And if I lived along the Thames in the past when it was used as a dumping ground for a host of different wastes, I dare say I would take a pass on fish from that source. Today, I'm not in a huge hurry to eat raw oysters or anything and the amount of mercury in some fishes is enough to give one pause. But, theoretically, it could be done.
post #54 of 54
i would give this *fake meat* a try , i hate eating meat for the fact an animal has to die for me to enjoy my meal. but i also love the taste and im not ashamed of that part. when i was a kid growing up my mum used to full our plates with meat and veg as a kid i hated veg even simple things like peas . but we had to sit at that table untill they were eaten the amount of time i was sick. but even now when i try veg it goes in my mouth and it comes straight back up. but it would be so healthy to eat at least some veg.
my daughter is only 8 and has decided not to eat pork or beef, she will eat chicken , turkey and fish, but she does not like any sort of veg , so i do try and get her to try different types or pork or beef just so she stays healthy.
but i myself will no longer eat prok , not after seeing how they kill them on that tv thing called F WORD, i actually cried seeing that and not been able to touch pork since. but i know it happens with cows to which is why i hope not to ever see anything like that again or i wil starve , i dont eat lamb or fish or pasta or rice or even stake , i have always been a fussy eater so im limited to what i can eat. but i would deffently give this other meat a try.
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