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Persians?

post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 
Got a question. My friend at work who bought a "persian" from the pet store has notice that the cat doesn't have a smushed nose. I have seen this cat and I would have to agree. She is 6 months and the older she has gotten, the more of a nose she seems to get. My question is, is it possible for a persian to have an actual "snout/nose" instead of a smushed face? If not, that would mean the pet store, or the breader for the pet store, has falsified papers which is breaking the law. I would really like to see this place shut down, as well as my friend, and any information on this would be greatly appreciated.
post #2 of 12
Sabra,

Yes, there are "long nosed" persians. They are called Doll Faced Persians and are the traditional old style persians. What you are used to seeing is the "ultra typed" persians, the ones with the flat faces. I actually like the Doll Faced ones better.
post #3 of 12
Yup,

Long nose persians sure do exist. and yes, they are reffered to as Doll faced persians or Classic persians.

actually about 50 years ago ALL persians had real noses LOL, but since the persian standard calls for a very short nose, noses got shorter and shorter until we got the "no nose" extreme persians of today.

still, once in a while we get some long snouts in our litters. these kittens are as persian as any, but since they dont fit the standard as it is precieved today, they are considered pet quality and are usually spayed or neutered.

Pet stores get their stock from very bad sources . no reputable breeder would sell his kittens to a pet store. pet stores usually get their stock from "Mills" or very newbie breeders at best. these either know little about the breed standard or seem to care nothing about it.

this sometimes resolts in VERY long nosed persians. allthough the pet store supplied papers for the kitten, reliability of these papers are doubtable (at least in my country).

but... as long as the kitten and owner are happy, thats the MOST important thing.

lucky little kitten!!
post #4 of 12
Thread Starter 
Thanks you both That was some very good information. I think what finally brought the doubt up for my friend was that her new vet said it looked like the cat had some persian. I'll pass the info on.

They paid $700 dollars for this kitten. I would imagine that this is a very extreme price for a kitten that couldn't be shown or bred. They actually signed papers saying they wouldn't.

I would just love to be able to help and shut this place down. In Austin, Texas they have made pet-shops "non-existant." I wish they would do the same here in Houston.
post #5 of 12
I don't mean to be unkind, but hasn't the extremely short nose caused respiratory problems in Persians and Himalayans?
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but those I've "met" have that problem. Cat and dog clubs and shows were begun by people who love the breed. I was a member of the Collie Club of America, and it was our goal to improve the overall health and appearance of the Collie. I believe good health should take precedence. I assume that would be the goal of the Persian Club. I agree that it is unwise to buy a cat or dog from a pet shop or puppy or cat mill, but I don't disagree with doll faced Persians.
post #6 of 12
Yes there are long nosed persians call doll faced. In fact, I breed doll faced himalayans, which are a breed of the persian. The difference is that himmies have points, like siamese cats. The CFA standard is short nosed or extremes and they do have a lot of problems with their eyes and sinuses. That's not to say that they all have problems, but honestly, I never met anyone who has an extreme that doesn't have eye problems.

People are finding more and more that the doll faced are preferred over the extremes, but if you want to show them, they have to be "extremes" because they are considered the standard. I have to agree that I prefer the doll faced. I don't understand how standard can be a cat that has health problems and wasn't meant to look that way. Their faces got flat due to inbreeding.

As far as the doll faced being "fixed", if breeders who breed for the standard get a doll faced, they usually do only sell it as a pet because its coming from their lines. But it doesn't have to be fixed, that is the sellers option.

A breeder has to actually give breeding rights to the owner by writing in a number on the blue slip. Without the number, the cats cannot be registered regardless if they are doll or extreme faces.

If your friends cat is not a full bred persian and only part persian, there should not have been any blue slip when the cat was bought. Both parents have to be registered in order to register a litter. And if indeed it is a mixed breed cat, they definitely overpaid and may possibly have a fraudulant lawsuit.

As far as costs, I've seen many breeders regardless of it being doll or extremes charge around $800 (including shipping) with no breeding rights. I think that is too high. Usually as pet quality it's between $300 & $500. With breeding rights it could be as much as $2000 or more. Some breeders have many different prices, just depending on the "looks" of the cats. They are typically "extreme faced" breeders. One cat in the litter might be $300 and another would be $500 etc. It just depends how close the kitten looks to standard. The more to standard, the more they charge. It seems that the ones who charge $150 or so are what people like to call "backyard breeders". They're basically in it for the money and not for the health and temperaments of the cats. I have seen a lot of adds for persians in that price range in my area, but I've never seen any of the cats, so I really don't know. It's just what I've been told, but honestly vaccinations, vet appts., food, litter etc. for for the first 12 weeks of a kittens life will run you at least $100 so I can't see how these are very healthy animals.

Sorry for such a long post. I hope this clarifies some things for you. This is all my opinion. I don't want to offend anyone. The doll faced are just my preference.

Purrs-
post #7 of 12
http://www.persian-cats.com/

try this site to help you.



Patty
post #8 of 12
Hi again,

I am an "extreme" persian breeder, and I used to breed doll face.
I wish to relate to the tearing/respiratory problams extreme persians seem to be linked to.

a good extreme from fine breeding is NOT SUPPOSED to have respiratory problems. the standard calls for an OPEN expression which is supposed to prevent this problem.

I have 5, very extreme breeding persians and none of them had any respiratoy problem for even 1 day in their life. so I wouldnt hurry to judge extreme persians for being unhealthy in that regard.

yes, the tearing problem is also less with the "open faced" extremes, but it seems that it will allways be there if you want a very flat face. still with daily care of eyecleaning the cats are very healthy, and have no eye infections. one, has to remember that a standard persian is a rather "high maintanace" pet, and if they wish to have a standard persian extra care would be needed for the coat and eyes! every responsible breeder would tell you that.

the extreme persians are NOT a product of extreme inbreeding. I have seen very extreme kittens born to completely outcrossed parents. the extreme persians are the product of extreme selective breeding! selective breeding for a very very short nose.

also, it seems to me that "inbreeding" has become somewhat of a "bad word" in the fancy. moderate inbreeding, and linebreeding are legitimate tekniques in coserving a breeds features and are essential for ELIMINATING health problems. just read genetic books, how to do it right.

Last but not least! Doll-faced persians are in no way lesser than extreme persians. and are no less persian. the choice between a Doll face or extreme persian is completely a matter of taste.

I really do hope that CFA and other organisations would come to the point where they will create a variaty to the persians and would let the Doll-face be shown side by side with the extremes in their own category. this isnt so today... but it just might happen someday in the future.

there are still some small organisations like TCCI who support the doll-face persian. they hold photo shows for the breeders interested in promoting this veriaty.

I really wish for two things in the persian fancy.

1. that doll-face persians would not be considered any less than extreme ones.
2. that doll-face breeders would stop making extreme seem like unhealthy mutants.

both of the above assumptions are just wrong and mean.

Love
Alon
post #9 of 12
Of course, with in breeding we get the very best of the best qualities, but also the worst of the worst. Unfortunately, some people who want champions and grand champions are sometimes willing to sacrifice half the litter to get one really great dog or cat. I was a dog breeder and have a few years experience with the breeding of cats also. I believe there are reputable breeders, of course, but there are those who will sacrifice the overall health of the breed to get one great show prospect. Obviously, you are one of the reputable breeders who cares about the animal more than the glory. We have to be careful, however.
post #10 of 12
I really loved the "doll-faced" persians. Are there any breeders who still breed them?
post #11 of 12
Suppose you don't care a thing about ever breeding OR showing, or even "papers" for that matter, Could you find a "doll-faced" persian or even a look-alike? All that would matter would be a healthy kitten...
post #12 of 12
yes, there are a few breeders who breed strictly for Doll-face persians.
you can contact TCCI and get their phone numbers.

you can also make any "net search" on the words "doll-face breeder" or cattery and you will find these breeders.

another thing, all of us extreme breeders get a Doll-face kitten once in a while. the longer nose genes are allways there in most of the extremes. when we get a doll-face kitten we sell it with papers of course but for fairly low prices, since this kitten is not considered suitable for breeding or showing, and we allways make sure by contract this kitten would be spayed or neutered.

The only way I would sell a Doll-face kitten with Pedigree and with breeding rights is if I knew the person that purchases it is commited to the breed and improving of the breed, and that this person is a registered breeder in TCCI or any other organisation that supports the Doll-face veriety.

I awould also make sure this person isnt breeding for the money, and that it has chosen the specific kitten for his/her breeding program for some other wondeful traits they have other than nose.

even in Doll-face not all cats are fit to breeding. one should not breed only for pets but to improve the veriety he or she likes, in my personal opinion of course.
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