missing hair - allergy to vaccination shot?

mermaid

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No, things are not as they seem, often. That is true. But science is science. It makes sense, and is reproducible. Making a statement like
"Dogs being injected with rabies getting agressive because they are getting a little bit of the disease itself" makes no sense if you understand what is actually in a rabies vaccine. There are modified live virus vaccines, but much more popular are subunit vaccines that cannot possibly infect the animal, but they can unduce an protective immune response. An animal is not going to get a mild case of rabies from either type of vaccine, it's just not possible. The immune response to one or the other may induce a mild fever or fatigue, etc, but that is due to cytokine release as a function of the activation of the immune system, not due to an actual case of rabies.

Now, I myself lost my very much beloved cat due to a vaccine-induced fibrosarcoma, so I am also wary of vaccines, or at the very least the frequency of them. I believe, from what I know, that overvaccinating can be bad.
But to say they are useless and bad in part because we all have an immune system is irresponsible at best.
Yes, we do have an immune system, and it's a wonderful, amazing thing. But our animals also get incurable diseases like rabies and distemper that the immune system cannot protect against. Diseases evolve that way, that's just nature. There are other diseases that ARE curable, and I often choose not to vaccinate for them. My horse never got equine flu vaccine, because, while the flu is bad, the horse usually recovers.
Canine distemper, actually, is a great example of a vaccine that works. Have you ever traveled to a third world country and seen dogs that have been infected with this virus? It's extremely contagious, and beyond heartbreaking. The vaccines for canine distemper virus make it possible for most of us in the US and other civilized countries to never come across such an animal. But if we stopped vaccinating our dogs for it, that would change, and very quickly.
I choose to vaccinate my animals against things like rabies and distemper because I have done the research and I know that the benefits outweigh the risks about 1,000,000 to 1. I, myself, am vaccinated for rabies. If I were bitten by a rabid animal, which can happen in my profession, I would be at a GREAT risk. Now, I am protected and have every chance of being okay if such a thing could happen.
ALL drugs have risks associated. There is not one single drug out there on the market that does not have side effects. That's biology.
But then again, everything has risks. It's just up to the individual to weight the benefits. It's a risk to walk out the front door every day. But the benefits of doing so FAR outweigh the risks. And it's not BAD to go outside even though people die outside every day. Follow me?

Didn't I say I have to work this afternoon?
 

mermaid

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Originally Posted by sharky

Please keep the tone down folks... lets all play nice and get back to the scheduled program
I hope the tone of that long post is nice. That was my intent.
 
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tekgrl

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Tuna, I understand your concerns about 'the man' and over-medication. I, myself, do not get the flu vaccinations and have had only had the flu a total of 3 times in my life. However, I also believe that human health comes before animal health. I know animals get a lot more diseases that can harm me that I don't want to get and that I don't want my friends to get.

Also, it is Indiana state law that all cats, dogs, and ferrets older than 3 mos be vaccinated against rabies (see http://www.in.gov/boah/rabies/). I knew this before I rescued them.

I hope my sweet kitties are not harmed by those vaccines...but a little skin rash is preferrable to full-blown rabies and my pet being put down IMHO.

Honestly, I was wondering if I could get the vet fee waived if the cause was the vaccine itself. But if not, so be it and I want to know the real cause and treat it. What if it's something contagious like ringworm? I would want to treat that immediately!
 

mermaid

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If it's an open sore type lesion that's not full-thickness (i.e. you can see full through to the fat beneath the skin), I would not think the vaccine was the culprit. I would look to the spot on treatment first and foremost.
 

tuna

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Originally Posted by Mermaid

Making a statement like
"Dogs being injected with rabies getting agressive because they are getting a little bit of the disease itself" makes no sense if you understand what is actually in a rabies vaccine. There are modified live virus vaccines...
i think you just answered your own question here. you are injecting a live virus. cause and effect. it is well documented that in a lot of cases aggression appears after the rabies vaccine...why not the others then? not only is it possible but likely. again, common sense.

Originally Posted by Mermaid

The immune response to one or the other may induce a mild fever or fatigue, etc, but that is due to cytokine release as a function of the activation of the immune system, not due to an actual case of rabies.
cytokines and aggression are two completely different things. cytokine release is responsible for the systemic inflammatory response (fever, etc) you get with vaccines in general not rabies in particular, not aggression.

Originally Posted by Mermaid

I myself lost my very much beloved cat due to a vaccine-induced fibrosarcoma
i'm really sorry to hear that mermaid. i think many of us have unfortunate stories like that and the travesty is that it is preventable...that's what i am trying to do here.

Originally Posted by Mermaid

But to say they are useless and bad in part because we all have an immune system is irresponsible at best.
no, you misunderstand. my point is that we were made to survive in this world of microorganisms and we have survived this long in time because of our immune systems so to think that all of a sudden in the 1900's we can't survive without vaccines does not adhere to the laws of common sense.


Originally Posted by Mermaid

But our animals also get incurable diseases like rabies and distemper...
sorry but both are completely curable with homeopathy.


Originally Posted by Mermaid

Have you ever traveled to a third world country and seen dogs that have been infected with this virus? It's extremely contagious, and beyond heartbreaking.
well these poor dogs don't have homeopathy.


Originally Posted by Mermaid

But if we stopped vaccinating our dogs for it, that would change, and very quickly.
that is here say. you couldn't possibly know this for a fact. lots of animals don't get vaccinated
and the incidence of rabies in our society is stil so low, is it really worth the risk?


Originally Posted by Mermaid

ALL drugs have risks associated. There is not one single drug out there on the market that does not have side effects. That's biology.
there are no side effects with homeopathy
it's true. the proof is in the pudding...pop.


now get to work
 

mermaid

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Rabies is curable with homeopathic medicine?
That's a new one.
 

yosemite

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Just another reminder to play nice. Please review the rules re Flaming. There is a great difference of opinion here and we are all entitled to our opinions (however right or wrong you may think they are).
 

tuna

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yosemite - i don't believe anyone is losing their temper. we are having an adult discussion...but i shall bow out now because i didn't realize that this forum edits posts. i care very much about what i say, i don't want any of it misconstrued so i'll say no more...except...best of luck to you and your little ones...
 

momofmany

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Awww - I tried to see your cuties but it couldn't get to your server!!

I think it's the spot-on and it sounds like a chemical burn. If you bath Palas at this time, use the most gentle shampoo that you can. I'm glad you are getting to the vet tomorrow and hope you get to the root of this. Keep us posted?

Tuna/Mermaid - why not open up a separate thread and have your debate? This thread is about helping Palas.
 
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tekgrl

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Momofmany, sorry you couldn't see the photos. I tried them when I saw your post but they worked for me. Maybe the server went down for a few hmmm. Later I will find and install Fireworks and make the pics smaller so I can embed them into a post to see if that works better.

I agree about the chemical burn now. The patch of skin has started to form a scab across the top reminiscent of a chemiical burn I've seen women get when they leave a perm on too long. I would still like to have the vet check it out but I'm throwing out the spot on for sure. I did not realize it was such a bad thing for animals and mine don't have fleas for the moment. I'll go with Advantage next time.

Thank you for the replies

Liz
 

mermaid

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Sorry for the troubles. I didn't mean to hjack Tekgrl's thread.
 
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tekgrl

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NP Mermaid and Tuna. I know that is one of those controversial issues. I have my own set views about it. We all want to do what is right for our lovies.

The bald spot is actually looking better this morning like it is starting to heal. The hair around it has settled and it is now hard to detect. The patch of missing hair seems smaller now and there is no more flowing blood..just the scab in the center.

Welp time to get us ready to go to the vet. I have to take DeeDee cuz I don't think she would like being alone. She cries if Palas and I are in another room together and she can't find us and I think it is calming for Palas too if she is in the carrier with him.
 

yosemite

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Originally Posted by tekgrl

Welp time to get us ready to go to the vet. I have to take DeeDee cuz I don't think she would like being alone. She cries if Palas and I are in another room together and she can't find us and I think it is calming for Palas too if she is in the carrier with him.
We take Bijou and Mika both whenever one of them has an appointment. That way when they come home they smell the same as well.
 
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tekgrl

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We just came back from the vet. They were so well behaved! The vet said that he's seen some cats react badly to the spot on treatment but very few. He thinks the spot looks like it might be ringworm so he took a culture and said it take 3-5 days for it to grow so I should call back mid next week. In the meantime, he gave me a few active ingredients he said I should look for and use to clean the wound just in case it is ringworm and clean toys with bleach.

Added comment: I wonder if the bald spot on Palas's cheek, where the rescue said they had to deflea him cuz fleas were setting in it, was actually ringworm now...hmmm
 

sharky

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Glad to hear of the good vet behavior ... uggghhh hope it is not ringworm...
 
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tekgrl

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Thanks Sharky. Me too. Thats never fun to deal with. But I'm thinking it makes sense if Palas had it when I got him. I'm just glad after being together for a month, little DeeDee hasn't shown any signs of it...if that is what it is. We shall see.
 

momofmany

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Got thru to the server this time - gorgeous babies!!!

You did say that Palas had been itchy for a while - perhaps it is ringworm after all. I know how contagious it is but I've found that some cats are simply more immune to it than others. My dog picked up ringworm one time and not a single cat got it from him. We were very lucky.
 
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tekgrl

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Well central Indiana was closed Tuesday and Wednesday due to the snow/hail storm that deposited 12-14 inches of snow. So yesterday the vet was open and I called to check on the ringworm culture results. Negative...no ringworm. They sounded really busy and tried to get off the phone at this point...hmmm. So I asked if they knew what it might be and they put the vet on the phone. He said he didn't know what it was and said he could treat it as an allergic reaction and do a skin scraping and give a shot of cortizone. I wanted to ask why he didn't do a skin scraping before and what it would cost me...but he was very short and said he wouldn't charge the office visit fee.

The spot on Palas itself hasn't improved or gotten worse. When I took him to the vet last friday, it was starting to scab over. The vet pulled a small tuft of hair out of the middle of it for the ringworm culture which removed the scab. Since then it has been bleeding again *sigh* I don't really like this vet (Petsmart Banfield) so I think I will find another one that will talk to me and actually give me options and opinions. The vet didn't even give me anything to treat for cuts and scrapes. All he did was show me the active ingredients on a ringworm medication bottle. But it's not ringworm...

Anyone have any thoughts, opinions, experiences with the vet's proposed skin scraping and shot of cortizone?
 

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I think you're right, probably better find a vet who has more time to answer your questions.

Since the ringworm culture was negative, I guess you can be fairly certain that it was the flea treatment that caused this. If it seems to be healing I would just keep a close eye on it for now. A skin scrape seems unnecesary since you can be pretty sure what caused this...and it's the only spot on his body, right?

I had forgotten about this the other day, but I put some OTC flea treatment on Leopold a loonnnnng time ago, before I knew better
. I think it went fine the first time, but the second time, he ended up with a dime sized raw spot on the back of his neck. It *looked* a little like ringworm, or a chemical burn. I can't remember how long it took to heal, but it did....without any further trouble.
 
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