Introductions - dominance behaviour? Advice needed please! (long)

As many of you may have gathered, I am currently going through introductions with my current cat and a new little kitten. I'll start with details about the cats, and then describe what has happened so far. I need to know if you think it's going okay, if the behaviour was normal, and if the little kitten is likely to get broken

Firstly, the combatants:

In the red corner, Radar (aka 'Bitemarks')
Age: 8.5 months
Weigh In: not exactly sure, but 9lbs at least, maybe 10
Physical type: Tall, long, lean and muscular with big paws. Housecat with the build of a tiger. Heavier than he looks due to muscle density.
Character: Plays rough and fights dirty. Utterly fearless. The king of his realm.

In the blue corner, Sonic (aka 'loverboy')
Age: 3 months
Weigh In: 3lbs
Physical type: Tiny and dainty, long slender legs, wiry.
Character: Loves a cuddle, bit of a wrestler, a bit timid.

Description of the first bout:

Sonic has been housed in the bedroom since his arrival, but has explored the hallway and kitchen. Radar's main territory is the sitting room, but he has access to the hallway and kitchen when we are at home and not cooking.

Both cats were let into the hallway. Radar approached Sonic, who froze looking utterly terrified in a very defensive pose - back arched, tail looped down, ears back. Radar backed off and sat looking comfortable and confident - tail curled loosely round himself, ears forward. Radar approached again to sniff, Sonic hissed, and Radar backed off. Radar tried again, Sonic hissed, again Radar backed off.

Radar then rolled over onto his back at a little distance from the newcomer, and reached out towards Sonic with one paw, no claws out. After a couple of seconds, Sonic visibly relaxed, sat down, and started to groom himself (which I understand in situations like this is a displacement activity, indicating that he was still unsure but acting as if he wasn't bothered by Radar's presence). Radar was then allowed to sniff Sonic, and Sonic sniffed Radar. Both cats rolled onto their backs and rubbed themselves on the floor.

Then the 'fun' began. Now Sonic was more at ease, Radar grabbed him and pinned him to the floor, batting his head. Radar backed off, and Sonic stayed low to the ground. Radar watched. Sonic stood up and started to walk away. Radar again grabbed him, pinning him down and batting him. Then there was a bit of a wrestle, there were no claws or teeth involved, just rolling around on the floor grabbing each other. Radar backed off again. This happened a few times, Radar starting it every time Sonic stood up.

This all seemed to be play-fighting, but we separated them at the point when Radar pounced from a distance, landing splat on the kitten with his front paws and bowling him over. At this point there was some vocal grumbling and crying from Sonic, so I distracted Radar with a towel and dropped it over him, and put Sonic back in the bedroom.

Was I right to separate them, or should I have let them get on with it? I am worried about the size difference, and that Radar may be too rough and hurt Sonic. Radar doesn't understand that teeth hurt (Nate and I both have small bite marks from him at the moment, he doesn't do it hard but doesn't seem to know that it's still painful). Sonic however started crying to be let back out of the bedroom, and next time he was in the hallway he was crying looking for Radar! So maybe it was all OK and he was enjoying it

So any advice would be welcomed - Radar is my first ever cat, Sonic my second, and I have never introduced cats before!

Thanks

Lord, mine would scare you to death then! They play so rough sometimes it shakes the house! I swear they have been watching professional wrestling with some of the moves they use.

But never have we had an actual "cat fight" break out. They go into a whole different zone then, and you can see the changes in their faces and the claws are extended fully.

Originally Posted by neetanddave

Lord, mine would scare you to death then! They play so rough sometimes it shakes the house!

I swear they have been watching professional wrestling with some of the moves they use.

But never have we had an actual "cat fight" break out. They go into a whole different zone then, and you can see the changes in their faces and the claws are extended fully.

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OK thanks for that! It is so like me to worry too much. Radar is SO big and Sonic is SO small. I will let them have 'round 2' today, and keep a close eye on them. I am not going to leave them unattended together at this point!

Originally Posted by Epona

As many of you may have gathered, I am currently going through introductions with my current cat and a new little kitten. I'll start with details about the cats, and then describe what has happened so far. I need to know if you think it's going okay, if the behaviour was normal, and if the little kitten is likely to get broken

Firstly, the combatants:

In the red corner, Radar (aka 'Bitemarks')
Age: 8.5 months
Weigh In: not exactly sure, but 9lbs at least, maybe 10
Physical type: Tall, long, lean and muscular with big paws. Housecat with the build of a tiger. Heavier than he looks due to muscle density.
Character: Plays rough and fights dirty. Utterly fearless. The king of his realm.

In the blue corner, Sonic (aka 'loverboy')
Age: 3 months
Weigh In: 3lbs
Physical type: Tiny and dainty, long slender legs, wiry.
Character: Loves a cuddle, bit of a wrestler, a bit timid.

Description of the first bout:

Sonic has been housed in the bedroom since his arrival, but has explored the hallway and kitchen. Radar's main territory is the sitting room, but he has access to the hallway and kitchen when we are at home and not cooking.

Both cats were let into the hallway. Radar approached Sonic, who froze looking utterly terrified in a very defensive pose - back arched, tail looped down, ears back. Radar backed off and sat looking comfortable and confident - tail curled loosely round himself, ears forward. Radar approached again to sniff, Sonic hissed, and Radar backed off. Radar tried again, Sonic hissed, again Radar backed off.

Radar then rolled over onto his back at a little distance from the newcomer, and reached out towards Sonic with one paw, no claws out. After a couple of seconds, Sonic visibly relaxed, sat down, and started to groom himself (which I understand in situations like this is a displacement activity, indicating that he was still unsure but acting as if he wasn't bothered by Radar's presence). Radar was then allowed to sniff Sonic, and Sonic sniffed Radar. Both cats rolled onto their backs and rubbed themselves on the floor.

Then the 'fun' began. Now Sonic was more at ease, Radar grabbed him and pinned him to the floor, batting his head. Radar backed off, and Sonic stayed low to the ground. Radar watched. Sonic stood up and started to walk away. Radar again grabbed him, pinning him down and batting him. Then there was a bit of a wrestle,

there were no claws or teeth involved, just rolling around on the floor grabbing each other.

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Radar backed off again. This happened a few times, Radar starting it every time Sonic stood up.

This all seemed to be play-fighting, but we separated them at the point when Radar pounced from a distance, landing splat on the kitten with his front paws and bowling him over. At this point there was some vocal grumbling and crying from Sonic, so I distracted Radar with a towel and dropped it over him, and put Sonic back in the bedroom.

Was I right to separate them, or should I have let them get on with it? I am worried about the size difference, and that Radar may be too rough and hurt Sonic. Radar doesn't understand that teeth hurt (Nate and I both have small bite marks from him at the moment, he doesn't do it hard but doesn't seem to know that it's still painful). Sonic however started crying to be let back out of the bedroom, and next time he was in the hallway he was crying looking for Radar! So maybe it was all OK and he was enjoying it

So any advice would be welcomed - Radar is my first ever cat, Sonic my second, and I have never introduced cats before!

Thanks

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The combatants are shown below. But I do not take it to be combat anymore, but general playtime because either one is likely to start it. For example, whoever gets on the bed first at night and then the other comes in a little late, whoever the first was will act like it is violently mad at the other for coming up but after a while you can see that it is all part of a big act. Three weeks ago things were different, they would have nothing to do with each other. And then there was the hissing phase which was real and then there was the mellowing out with each other phase and now it looks like the let's play rough but not hurt each other stage. Yes, they roll and tumble in wrestling holds but nobody ever gets up and walks away from it. I am absolutely sure that in my case, these two cats are really enjoying this. And you yourself said there were no teeth or claws involve which is my case and why I do not worry.

I'm glad you posted, as I'm going thru the same thing with Felix and Sheba. Felix is a big boy--13.5 pounds and Sheba's about 6-7 (7 mos old.) Sheba will lie on the floor with one paw extended and he'll just jump on her and playbite around her neck, she'll squeal and he stops. A few seconds later they're at it again. Last night Felix even lifted up Sheba and headbutted her in the stomach (thank goodness her spay is well healed!)

On the other hand, they still play their games of chase and hide and seek on the cat tree. This is also my first time to have 2 cats that actually tolerate each other, so I'm not used to all the nuances of cat play.

Cally

Cool, thank you. I myself don't think there was any aggression involved at all, just rough and tumble, but between 2 cats of very different size!

I am so proud of Radar, he's not a little kitten any more and hasn't even set eyes on another cat for over 6 months but he has taken it all in his stride. The way he behaved when Sonic was at first terrified at the sight of him was very calm. He kept looking up at us as if checking that it was OK with us for him to approach Sonic.

Sounds like things are really going great acutally trust me, if Radar gets too rough, Sonic will fight back but from your description it looks like they were playing

Thank you thank you (sorry I will stop being so effusive in my gratitude!)

These things are exactly what I needed to hear. It's so confusing trying to read all the behaviour and work out what is behind it when you are quite new to cats, let alone seeing how they interact with each other and trying to work out if it's good or bad signs that you are seeing!

Especially at that exact moment when there are 2 cats rolling around on the floor and you aren't quite sure whether there will be 'tears before bedtime'

I'd say things were going well too! Dont worry too much about the difference in size - when I got Mosi he was a little fluffy bundle (he's a somali - a cat of medium size, foreign build) and Jaffa is a large (tall and long) muscular boy.

I was in a similar position in that Mosi and Jaffa are the first cats I've had to introduce to each other (when I got Jaffa I got his littermate at the same time but sadly he died towards the end of 2005). When I introduced Mosi to Jaffa they hissed at each other but tolerated each other well. Jaffa would hiss at Mosi if he got too close but otherwise seemed ok. Jaffa is both a timid and a dominant cat - if that makes sense! He's a bit of a scaredy cat and hides from visitors so I was worried that a new kitten would have him running for cover, but in cat terms he's a dominant cat. He used to pin Mosi to the ground and make it clear who was in charge and as he was about 4 times the size there wasn't a lot Mosi could do about it! But Mosi never got hurt so I wouldnt worry too much that Radar will hurt Sonic because he's bigger (Jaffa is a strong, muscular 12 lbs and Mosi was about 3lbs when I got him).

Mosi is also a dominant cat so we have a lot of rough and tumble around here which is usually half play and half serious. I don't worry because neither of them have ever hurt the other and nobody seems stressed out by the situation in general. I'm in favour of leaving cats together and letting them sort things out provided neither one is getting hurt or showing signs of being too stressed by the situation. I reckon they have to go through the process of getting to know each other and separating them only means they have to start over next time they meet.

One thing I would just say to be aware of is that as Sonic grows the relationship may alter. Once we'd got past the initial introductions Jaffa and Mosi were fine together with just a bit of hissing from Jaffa if Mosi over stepped the mark and bothered him when he was trying to sleep. But when Mosi got to nearly 5 months things did deteriorate a bit with more conflict and more hissing. I think it was due to Mosi's hormones and the fact that they are both dominant cats. I think Jaffa started to see him as a threat. Mosi was neutered shortly after he turned 5 months and when he came back from the vet stinking of vet smells there was a lot of hissing and they really didn't get on at all. It took several weeks for things to calm down and gradually get back to normal. They're best buddies now!

Yep Lucky & Ben went through this for the first few weeks. Actually they used to fight but the fighting turned to playing and now they are buddies. I just listen to their cries and decide if they are fighting or not. Lucky is 15lbs and Ben was 5lbs at the time. I was afraid Lucky would hurt Ben. Lucky used to put Ben in a headlock and sit on him.

OK well I don't think this is so good. Tonight ended up with Sonic wailing, screaming, hissing, and terrified with his heart rate racing.

Radar will not leave him be for a second. We just let them at it for ages, but Sonic ended up so distressed and afraid that we had to separate them, he really was terrified, trying to run away and find a safe hiding place with Radar chasing him and leaping. Radar was in hunting mode with his tail swishing.

It was horrible and frightening and distressing to watch. I don't know what to do next

You are asking for serious trouble. You essentially brought Sonic (a baby) into your home where you have (to him) a Terminator cat! How can you do that! Sonic is not 'lunch', not a new toy for Radar, and you're using him to bait Radar! Until Sonic is older and larger, keep them in separate areas (let Sonic into the main rooms with Radar away, so his scent will be all over too and not just Radar's, but unless you are there when they're together and you're willing and able to intervene when Radar STARTS up, keep Sonic in a safe place til he's old enough to fight back. Radar's just defending his territory, but seems pretty mean about it and you have to protect Sonic from him! Don't let him get beaten up and then wonder what to do - don't let it happen at all.

I'm going to have to disagree with Larke here, you're not doing anything wrong Epona, there are alot of us on this site who have brought kittens into a home where there is an older cat who was, for lack of a better word, rambunctious, and I can guarantee you there were no dead kittens. Since Radar only seems interested in rough play with Sonic, I do suggest that you closely monitor play time between the 2, and when you are not around, it would be best to keep them separate until Sonic can really hold his own. when Radar starts getting too rough, the only thing you can really do is separate them and tell Radar no in a very firm voice. Another option is to put Radar back in your room when he gets too rough and leave Sonic out with you, I think Radar loves to be around you so that may be an effective "punishment" I just want to stress that it can take time to get kitties used to each other, sometimes weeks, don't get discouraged and really, as long as there's no bloodshed, things are looking good

I'm going though the same thing with 4, 7 year old cats. I got Neffie 4 days ago and she's decided that she wants out of the room she is in so we decided that we'd let her out with every cat but Twig tonight and see how everything goes. Well, it's been three hours and no fighting or problems. She is just exploring and nothing more. Minor hisses and growls but no fights between the three so I take it as a great sign. Twig is in the bedroom because he is 22 pounds first off(Neffie is 7 pounds) and he's very aggressive so I want the others to accept her and her to accept them and then to introduce Twig into the picture. Hopefully everything will continue to go smoothly.
I wish you luck with Radar and Sonic.

I never said anything about a dead cat, just to keep them separated - as you did. The fact is that Radar is a lot bigger, and sounds like he's really traumatizing Sonic one way or another, and it just doesn't seem to be the right way for Sonic to be introduced into a new home. How would you like it if you'd been taken as a baby into a home where you were left to be attacked by a serious bully, with nowhere to hide and with no one to intervene for you until you were old enough to hold your own?

The second meeting was terrible, they just chased each other all around the flat- under the beds and sofas where we couldn't get to them
Radar seemed to get more aggressive when Sonic hissed but I can't put the blame on either of them as neither wanted to back down...
I guess we will see how they are again today and tomorrow but I can't see them being in such close contact longer than five to ten minutes when they are showing such antipathy to each other

Try not to get disheartened - it's early days yet. Do you have a cage you can put Sonic in for short periods so that Radar can sniff him and see him but not actually get to him? Or even the other way around so that Sonic can explore a room Radar's in for a few minutes without Radar being able to chase him. Can't remember whether you said you had feliway? That might help Sonic feel a bit less stressed.

Originally Posted by Larke

I never said anything about a dead cat, just to keep them separated - as you did. The fact is that Radar is a lot bigger, and sounds like he's really traumatizing Sonic one way or another, and it just doesn't seem to be the right way for Sonic to be introduced into a new home. How would you like it if you'd been taken as a baby into a home where you were left to be attacked by a serious bully, with nowhere to hide and with no one to intervene for you until you were old enough to hold your own?

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Hey hey hold on a moment, I think that's a bit harsh. We separated them as soon as Sonic indicated distress and they have not been together since. We're not idiots, and we aren't about to put that little lad in a situation where he's feeling bad and do nothing about it.

There hasn't been 'no one to intervene', we have been right there doing so at every moment, and I really resent that accusation.

Originally Posted by urbantigers

Try not to get disheartened - it's early days yet. Do you have a cage you can put Sonic in for short periods so that Radar can sniff him and see him but not actually get to him? Or even the other way around so that Sonic can explore a room Radar's in for a few minutes without Radar being able to chase him. Can't remember whether you said you had feliway? That might help Sonic feel a bit less stressed.

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I think it would probably stress Sonic to put him in a carrier with Radar on the prowl! Sonic really loves a good wrestle and often initiated wrestling with his littermates and the adult cats when he was at his breeder's, and he enjoyed wrestling with Radar up to a point - but Radar just doesn't seem to know when to stop.

I do not want anyone thinking that Radar is a mean or aggressive cat, because he is not in the slightest, he's a big softy, he just doesn't know when enough is enough. We love that cat to bits, and we love Sonic too, and would never do anything, nor allow anything to happen, to distress or hurt them.

Sonic isn't stressed generally, it was just the last few seconds of last night's encounter where he started hissing and screaming and we stepped in straight away. He was fine and back to normal the moment we removed him from the situation.

We are off out later to stock up on Feliway and Rescue Remedy.

I have to agree with Larke. You are basically allowing a 5 year old to beat up on an infant. I am not saying this is your intention, but you have already expressed this is your first experience and you are unsure of whether or not you should intervene. I think they should be separated unless you are closely supervising, and that there should not allow them to get physical with each other for some time coming. You can try engaging them together with a "cattail" type toy, or throwing balls. Once the tails start swishing, and they are puffing, or in anyway focusing on each other,instead of the play at hand, I think they should be separated. When you separate them into the rooms(take turns who goes into the room, and who stays out), you can say things clamly such as be good boys. When you see them getting ready to start on each other, say the same thing in the same soft tone, they will get the idea that mommy is not fond of us fighting.
Gradually, they can have a little interaction, but as soon as the ears are back and the tails start, give the warning softly, if it doesn't stop, separation is in order. This will not eliminate all rough housing in the future, but they will learn the cue to stop from your voice, and the kitten will be getting bigger and better able to defend himself.
I know some people subscribe to "let them work it out themselves" but I think you can and should excercise a lot of control in this area early on, so you will have some control later.
When my guys look to be too rough, I just stand up and say lets be good, or be good boys, and they begrudgingly slink off to separate corners. Rarely does it get so out of control that I am fearful for one of them. I felt this was neccessary because my Spike bites REALLY hard and I know he can hurt the other two. When I adopted him, he bit me hard, almost to the point of breaking skin. He now understands not to bite me, but unforunately his brothers can't teach him the way I have, so I must step in.
It is up to your guidance now, that will dictate how things go in the future.