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"Niki's" update on struvite crystals in urine

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
After switching to Nutro Max Cat Gourmet Classics Senior Can food for
2 months Niki has struvite crystals in her urine still. A little higher amount.
Her ph is the same 7. The vet recommends Science Diet WD along with
discontinuing any supplements. I am going to try the "Carpon" for a month
and then re-check.

Those of you who had good results with the carpon by Dr. Belfield, did you discontinue the tablets after eliminating the crystals or have you continued
giving to your cats as a preventive?

Thanks for your support
"Niki's mom"
post #2 of 26
Poor Trudy...
post #3 of 26
Fang takes caroon twice a day, and I suspect for life.
post #4 of 26
I'm still giving Nugent Carpon. His last urine check was 6.0. I have yet to take him back for another. It should be sooner, but finances say it will be a little later.

If his next check is good I may try without for a while to see what happens.

I'm keeping in mind that the vet said Nugent's crystals were likely caused by a bacterial infection so he may just be find from now on.

I suppose there are a lot of factors to consider with these things.
post #5 of 26
Thread Starter 
You can check the ph level in urine with either the sticks or papers available
at some pharmacys'. Has anyone been able to "catch" a sample from their
cat using these, in order to check the ph level at home?
I'd love to be able to compare to what lab report from vet says.
post #6 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trudy View Post
You can check the ph level in urine with either the sticks or papers available
at some pharmacys'. Has anyone been able to "catch" a sample from their
cat using these, in order to check the ph level at home?
I'd love to be able to compare to what lab report from vet says.
I haven't tried because my boy that has these issues is a little nervous usually. He'll walk up to strangers, but he won't let me watch him pee If I'm even in the same room, trying to catch a glimpse, let alone a sample ...this tends to interrupt the 'process'. Then who knows when he'll try and pee again (big problem!). Confining him with 'weird' (non absorbent) litter is out of the question for me, too. It just stresses him out, but that's Beandip - other kitties might deal with it better.

I have considered getting some of that 'Scientific Professional' kitty litter. It turns various shades of pink to indicate elevated pH. I haven't tried it yet, though.
post #7 of 26
Thread Starter 
Hey that's a thought to check into. What is the name of that "Scientific"
litter you mentioned? Wonder if anyone out there has tried that and the
accuracy of ph readings?

Thanks!
"Niki's" mom
post #8 of 26
Both of my cats have issues with crystals, Zoey especially has a struvite problem. I am really confused as to who told you Nutro Max Cat Gourmet Classics Senior would do anything at all to help a crystals problem
Zoey is on Science Diet c/d for maintenance (we started with s/d to rid her of the crystals) and she's been fine for a couple of years now. It's not great food but it keeps her problem under control. I also test her ph at home with the strips and I give her a bit of dr. Fosters & Smith urine acidifier every nite (she loves the stuff).

As far as getting a free catch sample. I was able to get a few from Saki by just putting a very small amount of litter in the box and catching him right after he goes, then using a syringe to get a sample. I use the crystals litter so I am able to get the urine before it has time to absorb into the litter.
post #9 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trudy View Post
Hey that's a thought to check into. What is the name of that "Scientific"
litter you mentioned? Wonder if anyone out there has tried that and the
accuracy of ph readings?

Thanks!
"Niki's" mom
It's actually called "scientific professional cat litter". There's a little more info here.

A 3 lb bag sounds like nothing, but it's huge considering it's only 3lbs. The litter is lightweight. My vet sells it. Hopefully you could find it locally too.
post #10 of 26
Thread Starter 
Thanks for both your input.. actually the Nutro Max Cat Gourmet Classics Senior was a suggestion from TCS.. because: it has a moderate amt. protein and fat, easier to digest - has all the nutirents in right area levels for seniors.
Contains DL-Methionine which acidifies urine and has decreased amt. of magnesium. It is certified for urinary tract health.
I changed from Pet Guard canned food after getting this input.
I feed the canned food mixed with raw, and only few pieces of their dry for a snack,which has joint support.
I alternate sometimes with Felidae Chicken & Rice can food.

I'm impressed you can "catch" Saki's urine sample at home. Niki will stop in the process & leave the box when I try to close in & catch a sample. I found some of the "Scientific Professional" cat litter and will check that out for heck of it. I do have the little crystal like things (from vet) you put in litter pan, which doesnt absorb the urine..would be great to test the ph paper strip that way,however Niki hates it.. last time she held out for 24 hrs before going in it,
kinna like "Beandip".

The Doctor Smith's urine acidifier, is that pill or liquid form? Have you heard
of Dr. Belfields' "Carpon" mentioned a few times in TCS for treating struvite
crystals?
post #11 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trudy View Post
The Doctor Smith's urine acidifier, is that pill or liquid form? Have you heard
of Dr. Belfields' "Carpon" mentioned a few times in TCS for treating struvite
crystals?
I'll let sicycat confirm for sure, but it looks like it comes either way. It's here.

I wonder if the tube kind is like the stuff that Beandip was on for 2 weeks. It looked and smelled like hairball remedy, gooey and brown. I happened to mention to my vet what a struggle it was squirting that stuff in his mouth everyday (picture goo all over me, Bean, and the floor ). She said, "really? most cats love it". Sure. Not my cat.

I'm not sure about the Carpon. I'll let someone else answer that one.

We've been through a lot of trial and error with different foods, medication, etc. My latest effort is to avoid all fish. I found out the hard way that a lot of the turkey and chicken flavors do have fish in them (even Nutro). So far so good. Our recent success is probably a combination of things, but I'm going to stick with the fish free diet as long as it seems to be helping .
post #12 of 26
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the site on the Dr. Smith's (I also have catalog at home) product.
Had to laugh visualizing you and your kitty w/the brown goop all over.
I like the info. on the Carpon. Yes, life is all about checking everything out
isnt it and then go whatever feels right.
post #13 of 26
Let me help you read the label on this Max Senior canned food:

Can you imagine a cat jumping on the back of a cow and taking a bite? Beef is a low quality protein with very little usable, absorbable protein.

Rice Bran, Rice Gluten are binders that the body will have a hard time breaking down.

Vegetation is simply passed as fiber.

Essentially, as your cat gets older they have a harder and harder time filtering and processing thier foods. They need high quality protein and fat, hoefully from natural, whole food sources.

Proteins that are best from first to last will be egg, fish, chicken-nothing else. No glutens, no flour, no vegetables. Whole meats that have not been overprocessed into meat loaf.

Max Gourmet Senior canned ingredients.

Chicken Broth, Chicken, Beef Liver, Ocean Whitefish, Rice Bran, Lamb, Beef, Rice Gluten, Peas, Rice, Carrots, Peppers, Guar Gum and Carrageenan, Potassium Chloride, DL-Methionine, Iodized Salt, Sodium Ascorbate (source of Vitamin C),Taurine, Glucosamine Hydrochloride,Chondroitin Sulfate,Ferrous Sulfate, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Oxide, Thiamine Mononitrate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Sulfate, Niacin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Potassium Iodide, Biotin.
post #14 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by TikiCat View Post
Let me help you read the label on this Max Senior canned food:

Can you imagine a cat jumping on the back of a cow and taking a bite? Beef is a low quality protein with very little usable, absorbable protein.

Rice Bran, Rice Gluten are binders that the body will have a hard time breaking down.

Vegetation is simply passed as fiber.

Essentially, as your cat gets older they have a harder and harder time filtering and processing thier foods. They need high quality protein and fat, hoefully from natural, whole food sources.

Proteins that are best from first to last will be egg, fish, chicken-nothing else. No glutens, no flour, no vegetables. Whole meats that have not been overprocessed into meat loaf.

Max Gourmet Senior canned ingredients.

Chicken Broth, Chicken, Beef Liver, Ocean Whitefish, Rice Bran, Lamb, Beef, Rice Gluten, Peas, Rice, Carrots, Peppers, Guar Gum and Carrageenan, Potassium Chloride, DL-Methionine, Iodized Salt, Sodium Ascorbate (source of Vitamin C),Taurine, Glucosamine Hydrochloride,Chondroitin Sulfate,Ferrous Sulfate, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Oxide, Thiamine Mononitrate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Sulfate, Niacin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Potassium Iodide, Biotin.
SINCE I know one of your cans CORN is the four ingrediant ... ie why I didnt by it ...

Rice is the most digestable grain in the cat world ... be it not as good as a dog or human but far better than the others Do you have ANIMAL or HUMAN nutrition training??
post #15 of 26
Thread Starter 
hey, I appreciate your feedback & concern regarding ingredients of cat foods.
I have a can of Nutro Max Cat Gourmet Classics Senior in front of me & I do not see listed as ingredients: rice bran - beef liver - carrageenan - beef - iodized salt - glucosamine hydrochloide - chondroitan sulfate -
I agree that protein and chicken are good & easily to digest.
However what I have read from many different sources and have heard, fish
is a "no no" can be a big factor in uti's.
post #16 of 26
Thread Starter 
ooops, i meant "eggs" instead of protein (i use organic egg yolk couple times
a wk.)
post #17 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by beandip View Post
I'll let sicycat confirm for sure, but it looks like it comes either way. It's here.
Yep that's the one
And oddly, Zoey LOVES it and will eat it right off of a plate or bowl.

But really, if your cat still has crystals you need to be using an RX food, like S/D or C/D, or even Walthams Urinary SO. I know they dont have the best ingredients, but both of my cats have been crystal free since being put on the RX diets.
post #18 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trudy View Post
I'm impressed you can "catch" Saki's urine sample at home.
I am so obsessed with my cats urinating its pathetic
I know exactly when Saki is due to go pee, so I empty all the litter out but for maybe a small scoopful of crystals. He will look at the box funny for a bit but eventually end up going, and I just dont look at him while he's going and when he's done I will syringe the pee into a sterile cup from the vet and off I go to have it tested. It's also easy to check the ph that way too. However, since I use the crystals litter I can check the ph even with a lot of litter in there, I just get in there right after they go so that the litter is not quite soaked up yet in the crystals.
post #19 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sicycat View Post
I am so obsessed with my cats urinating its pathetic
Ohh, me too - don't feel bad. I have 8 cats, and if you put their 8 clumps of sand in front of me, I could identify each one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sicycat View Post
I know exactly when Saki is due to go pee, so I empty all the litter out but for maybe a small scoopful of crystals. He will look at the box funny for a bit but eventually end up going, and I just dont look at him while he's going
Wow...Beandip would look at me like, "huh?". I think if I took almost all of his litter - even for a minute, I'd have to pull up all of the carpet too He's a good boy, but maaaaannnn, I just wouldn't get away with that.
post #20 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by beandip View Post
Ohh, me too - don't feel bad. I have 8 cats, and if you put their 8 clumps of sand in front of me, I could identify each one.
That is too funny

I can tell which cat has gone pee because of the way the litter has been 'scratched'. Is that pathetic too or what
And poop is easy because Zoey doesnt cover hers and Saki covers his TOO well (I always have to dig to find it ).
post #21 of 26
All of you are going to think I'm crazy for asking this question, but how does one know that there is a problem with cats urine. I've had my oldest since July and the youngest since Sept. Both have been to the vet, spayed and all shots given. As far as I know they are in good health. From what I read on this site, URI's and other urinary problems are very common. What should I watch for. They share the same litter box. Thanks for educating me.
post #22 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by deljo View Post
All of you are going to think I'm crazy for asking this question, but how does one know that there is a problem with cats urine. I've had my oldest since July and the youngest since Sept. Both have been to the vet, spayed and all shots given. As far as I know they are in good health. From what I read on this site, URI's and other urinary problems are very common. What should I watch for. They share the same litter box. Thanks for educating me.
It might be better to open a new thread for your question. But, anyway I can just tell you what I've observed with my cats.

Usually the first time you notice a problem is when they pee outside of the litterbox. The things I've observed are:

-sniffing around the house like a bloodhound on a hunt. A little is normal, but I mean a new obvious behavior that can go on for hours at a time.

-hopping from litterbox to litterbox without completing their business.

-frequent excessive licking of their genitals

-reduced urine output

-more frequent trips to the box

That's about all I can think of. You're right to be concerned, but some cats to go their whole life without gettting a UTI. One thing you might do is add another litterbox (because they usually prefer options and additional 'territory') and just try and 'observe' what is normal for them.
post #23 of 26
Yeah when Zoey had her UTI I noticed that she kept going in and out of the box like, a few times in one hour but not going much pee so that immediately told me she had a UTI. Luckily my cats have never peed outside the box, despite their problems, bless their little hearts.
post #24 of 26
Thread Starter 
I have another question. Where do you get the crystal litter?
Can you get it in a larger volume than what the vets give you to get a urine
sample, which is a very small amount that doesnt cover hardly any of a small
litter pan. "Niki" looks at it like it is emply and will hold out until 24hrs. or more
to use it.
thanks!
post #25 of 26
most pet stores have crystal litter
post #26 of 26
Thread Starter 
thanks!!
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