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California lawmaker proposes no-spanking law - Page 3

post #61 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
There is a huge difference between a spanking and a beating, that is what the anti-spanking people don't seem to realize.

And Norway probably has a few million people, we have 300 hundred million.
well unfortunately not everyone knows what the difference is- what my parents did, was considered ok simply because they were my parents and had the "right" to parent however they chose. it wasn't considered "beating" although that is what it was.

what difference does it make how many ppl there are in the US and Norway? because we have more children, they are not as valuable as individuals?

their stance isn't so much about telling ppl how to raise their kids, but about letting ppl know that in their country, children are valued as much as adults-
we would not let someone hit us and say, oh thats ok

same thing with children. the law is NOT "no parent should ever strike a child" its NO one should ever strike a child


dont know why ANYone would object to that.

the defensiveness about retaining parental rights is a bit frightening to me.

what i see all around me, here, is parents who left parenting to the schools, the kids peers and the TV etc
they dont have the time for their kids. in some cases this is because both parents (where there are two parents, thats another thing thats disappearing, sadly) have to work.

there are parents who want to be "friend" with their kids and thats absurd as well, your children need parents. and teaching from the parents.

i see ppl not teaching their kids the basic values and rules of society and then when they get out of control, resorting to "spanking".
or parents who can think of no other way to deal with a toddler than to smack them anytime they do something "wrong", which, from what i have seen (thats all i can go by afterall) is more for "bothering" the parents, than anything truly "wrong".

i can understand day care workers and teachers being totally fed up with the way kids are arriving at schools today, with no discipline, no real parenting and no idea of what is expected of them. the teachers are trying to fill the void left by absentee parents and then trying to teach as well, plus in younger and younger kids, dealing with the vilolence thats taken over our schools


but i think it makes more sense to insist that parents who can not find other ways to discipline their children, seek guidance and parenting classes. i seriously doubt that with the back log of case in the courts, that ppl are going to rush to prosecute someone seen smacking the butt of a child to make him/her sit down in the shopping cart carriage in the store, for example (mroe often i see parents oblivious to the fact that their two year old is standing on the seat in peril of falling out)


we are talking about hypotheticals here. the only use i can see for a law like this is to get parents who repeatedly resort to spanking as a means of "discipline" into some classes and perhaps counselling if this is how they were raised in their own families and therefore never learned any different.

there are studies about studies that show that the only thing spanking a child produces is an angry child, who has to repress his emotions and who then feels helpless. if his parents can't control their anger, how is he supposed to learn how to control his?

now i dont want to make anyone feel even more defensive but the ppl who insist that they were not harmed by spankings and who are so adamantly defending their right to spank as they see fit,
seem to me to be quite angry
and seem to feel that perhaps their control may be taken away by an angry govt out to punish them if they do not parent the way the govt feels they should....

just an idea, NOT saying this is the case, but maybe something to think about, if you can put your defensiveness aside.

truth is, MOST parents are allowed to parent how they wish, even if that means not parenting at all. and look where that has got us!!

society is suffering for it, and rather than look at the real reasons for the problem we are looking for some one to blame

when the solution is right there in front of us. its not easy and its not a quick fix, but real parenting, teaching a child what is ok and what is not, teaching a child to RESPECT ppl.- that single lesson goes a LONG way to prevent behavoirs that harm others.

but i think we need to put respecting the children on the same plane as we ourselves expect to be respected.

if you treat your child with respect, this law has no impact on you whatsoever

but for those parents who have gone astray or who simply do not know effective ways of parenting, if it is coupled with mandatory parenting classes instead of jail time, it might be useful. (i still dont see the need for it but lets say the fool thing passes- and i still havent' read it so i guess i shouldnt comment on it,eh? :P)

ppl who actually DO abuse their children, unless the abuse does not result in death or is not long term , THEY rarely end up in prison.

sorry to be so long winded, understandably this is a hot button topic for me
post #62 of 80
I think ya'll are missing the my point. I'm talking about parents who ONLY spank. Of course I don't think children who have parents who do it as a very rarely will end up thinking violence is the only way.


I couldn't agree with you more Catnapt. You spoke very well and were extremely respectful. I wish more people could see it that way!
post #63 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by IloveSiamese View Post
I think ya'll are missing the my point. I'm talking about parents who ONLY spank. Of course I don't think children who have parents who do it as a very rarely will end up thinking violence is the only way.


I couldn't agree with you more Catnapt. You spoke very well and were extremely respectful. I wish more people could see it that way!
I don't remember reading any posts here that said that they only spank, I spanked my children on rare occasion, and it was always with my hand.

And if everyone thought the same way as catnapt, then we wouldn't have a need for this forum.

Everyone here is entitled to their own opinion, that is just life.

Nobody is right or wrong.
post #64 of 80
I don't recall saying anyone on this forum did do that. I was simply making a point about those who do.

I also don't recall saying everyone should think the same way as Catnapt, only that I wish more did is all.
post #65 of 80
It would be one thing if when real child abuse occurs the children are taken away from the situation and never brought back. The fact is this is not happening, children are being given back to the abusive parents time and time again. These parents are not smacking they are beating (I mean punching and kicking a child). The money time and effort should be put into preventing this from happening, maybe then we can begin to think about a "no smacking law." This is branding good parents as child abusers. We don't live in a Utopia here lets work with what we have.
post #66 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by catnapt View Post
what difference does it make how many ppl there are in the US and Norway? because we have more children, they are not as valuable as individuals?
I totally agree. I find it very hard to believe that American kids are somehow naughtier by default. And we do have social problems in Nordic countries too, it's not a squeaky clean theme park.

All corporal punishment has been illegal in Finland too since 1984. I think it's good.

IMO spanking doesn't make kids understand they did something bad, it just teaches them to be devious and secretive in fear of physical pain. It also teaches them that the strong have the right to control the weaker ones by force.

I do realize there is a huge difference between spanking and beating. Kids however feel pain on a very differend level from us adults. Half of the terror is in their vivid imagination, which doesn't make it any less real to them.

I was spanked mildly 2 times as a kid. It didn't teach me anything about being a better person.
post #67 of 80
I think children need a healty dose of fear of what the consequences will be if they misbehave badly.

And for all the anti-spanking people, answer me this.

How is it that parents that have NEVER spanked or laid a hand on their kids have kids that hit THEM?

I feel it is ridiculous to ASSUME that parents that spank their children on rare occasions are teaching their children to be violent.

Siamese, the law is not going to tell me I cannot spank my child if the occasion warrants it.
post #68 of 80
Ckblv,

I feel like you aren't reading my posts. I said I did NOT think parents that do it rarely, ie. a couple times in a child's life, are teaching children to only react in violence.

I'm sorry, but I think there are plenty of children who still hit their parents who HAVE been spanked as well. I've seen it with my own eyes in walmart and other stores and I think it's because the child is acting just as horrendous as the parent IMO.

Ckblv, How do you know the parents of that little girl don't spank her behind closed doors? That's right, you couldn't possibly know that.
post #69 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by IloveSiamese View Post
Ckblv,

I feel like you aren't reading my posts. I said I did NOT think parents that do it rarely, ie. a couple times in a child's life, are teaching children to only react in violence.

I'm sorry, but I think there are plenty of children who still hit their parents who HAVE been spanked as well. I've seen it with my own eyes in walmart and other stores and I think it's because the child is acting just as horrendous as the parent IMO.

Ckblv, How do you know the parents of that little girl don't spank her behind closed doors? That's right, you couldn't possibly know that.
Siamese, I do try and make sure that I read everyones posts.

I don't think that children who hit their parents have even been got on to. You might be right, they might have been spanked, but I just don't think so.

When I talk about 3 year olds, I say that they are very smart, they know how to work their parents if they want to. And I just speak from experience, not only am I talking about my own kids. But I am talking about the three year olds at the day care where I work. There are about 40 three year olds, and each one of them have a different personality and are who they are. But my being around these children, you can tell, just by the way that they act at school, whether or not they are made to behave at home. And Siamese, I think that if you was to ever be around a lot of three year olds at one time, you could understand what I am trying to say.

I know you have a little boy, and I know from your posts that he is a good little boy, and that time outs work for him, and I am glad that they do. When you have a room full of kids, and there are two or three who will just now listen, the others start to do that too because the teachers lose control of them.

I think that children who are spanked would not hit their parents only because they would know that they had done something wrong. Like I said three year olds are very smart. They are a lot smarter than people give them credit for.
post #70 of 80
I agree that children definately know how to manipulate their parents!

I also agree with you about a classroom full of kids. I know that there are many personalities, just as there are working with older children as well. Actually I spent the afternoon in a kindergarden class and I just have the most respect for those teachers. You have to be so quick and be on the ball every second of the day to be able to keep order. The teacher I had the please of working with was lovely, but very firm with the children. She had excellent classroom management and I learned a lot from her. If you don't have that skill, the whole class goes to H-E- double hockey sticks I've also been and continue to be trained to have those skills and they carry very well into my home life as well and I think that's half the reason my son is as well behaved as he is. None of that teacher or my management skills involved anything physical and yet she manages to keep 30 some 4/5 year olds in check the WHOLE friday afternoon.
post #71 of 80
Logic tells me that not many children that know that a spanking will be a consequence would dare hit and spit at their parents. 3-year olds are smarter than that.

And you didn't answer my question, where do the kids that DO hit their parents when they have never gotten a spanking in their lives learn that?

I have seen insinuations in this thread by the anti-spanking people that spankings and beatings are one in the same. At least, that is how it seemed to me.

Not all parents are fortunate to have passive, submissive children.
post #72 of 80
I would be willing to bet that the 3-year old on the airplane has never had a spanking or any discipline in her young life.

Look at her parents attitude toward the situation, they blamed everyone but themselves for their youngsters horrible behavior.
post #73 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I would be willing to bet that the 3-year old on the airplane has never had a spanking or any discipline in her young life.

Look at her parents attitude toward the situation, they blamed everyone but themselves for their youngsters horrible behavior.

I do agree with you ckblv, adults are supposed to be adults, children are not supposed to be adults. Children are supposed to be children. Adults are supposed to be people that can control of situations.
post #74 of 80
The funny thing is that I can't say which children have and have not had spankings and to make that judgement without a the child or the parent saying they have or have not would be a very premature judgement IMO. How can I know which children have been spanked or not without actual conformation and therefore how can I know that a child who is hitting their parents has been spanked before or not? I'm not prepared to judge a child based off of a one time thing.

The people I was talking about are from my own family who I lived with. My cousin's daughter was spanked regulary and she still hit her mother at age 6.
My aunt spanked her children in walmart and they hit her. I've seen random strangers slapping their kids hands or butt and then saw the child hit the parent back.

In my son's case, he came home one day from daycare after a child bit him and slapped him and then when he got angry, proceeded to hit my husband (recently). I asked where he learned that he could hit and he said "Jimmy" hit me at the daycare. So I talked to him and he got got prized toy taken away for the day, plus a time out and then the next day I went and talked to the child's mother and she's like, my son would never hit because I actually discipline my child. He know's better or he would get a spanking. (I know her from highschool, so theres some history too) I said well obviously somethings not working or you're just in denial because you son did and does do those things when you're not around. She just walked away.
post #75 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
Logic tells me that not many children that know that a spanking will be a consequence would dare hit and spit at their parents. 3-year olds are smarter than that.

And you didn't answer my question, where do the kids that DO hit their parents when they have never gotten a spanking in their lives learn that?

I have seen insinuations in this thread by the anti-spanking people that spankings and beatings are one in the same. At least, that is how it seemed to me.

Not all parents are fortunate to have passive, submissive children.
And I agree with you on this point too. Spankings and beatings and abuse are different things. I am not against spanking, I am against beatings and abuse though. A spanking is just what it is, just a spanking.
post #76 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by IloveSiamese View Post
The funny thing is that I can't say which children have and have not had spankings and to make that judgement without a the child or the parent saying they have or have not would be a very premature judgement IMO. How can I know which children have been spanked or not without actual conformation and therefore how can I know that a child who is hitting their parents has been spanked before or not? I'm not prepared to judge a child based off of a one time thing.

The people I was talking about are from my own family who I lived with. My cousin's daughter was spanked regulary and she still hit her mother at age 6.
My aunt spanked her children in walmart and they hit her. I've seen random strangers slapping their kids hands or butt and then saw the child hit the parent back.

In my son's case, he came home one day from daycare after a child bit him and slapped him and then when he got angry, proceeded to hit my husband (recently). I asked where he learned that he could hit and he said "Jimmy" hit me at the daycare. So I talked to him and he got got prized toy taken away for the day, plus a time out and then the next day I went and talked to the child's mother and she's like, my son would never hit because I actually discipline my child. He know's better or he would get a spanking. (I know her from highschool, so theres some history too) I said well obviously somethings not working or you're just in denial because you son did and does do those things when you're not around. She just walked away.

Children are gonna hit, bite, push, lie whatever at a day care. They are children and they hafta be taught right from wrong. It is kinda like monkey see, monkey do.

Some children are only children, some have older brothers and sisters, they learn what they see, and they learn other ways. At the daycare one child might want another toy that another child has, and he just goes and gets it. I have worked at the daycare for 7 years, so I think I really know how to deal with them. Like I said in another post (I think it was on this thread) children know what to do to get their parents attention, and at this age they know what to do to make their parents feel guilty. Just the other day, I had a parent tell me that they didn't bring their child to daycare because he started crying when they got in our parking lot. Now tell me what this child is learning. He has learned at this tender young age, that if he cries he will get what he wants. Lots of kids don't wanna come to daycare, but it is like anything else, once they get used to it, they are fine.
post #77 of 80
Oh and I do not and would not raise my son to be "submissive" and he definately isn't passive. He is much like his mother, outspoken and bullheaded . He is a good kid, but he is a normal, active boy who likes getting into trouble. I just pick and choose my battles and I really only get after him when he could endanger himself or it's an issue of respecting people or things.
post #78 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by IloveSiamese View Post
You may have noticed that I said the only way.

because goodness knows how a child who's parent teaches them violence/solving problems with physical violence and that they are above the law will turn out.
....if only you could see my husband's criminal defense files - I could surely show you. As the attorney's wife as well as support staff, I meet the clients on an atypical personal level, and yes, I often discuss that [ growing up with corporal punishment] among other things, such as confirming that cats are cool .
I think that part of the problem that I've been seeing is that many people see either authoritarian [corporal punishment] or passive parenting as the two ONLY methods. I had a discussion with a special ed. teacher and a resource teacher about corporal punishment, and they disagree with using it.
There are problems with handily using corporal punishment - it takes patience and creativity to assess a problem. For instance, a toddler can have a hair or sticker, etc. in their diaper; they're too young to realize that the discomfort is making them cranky but they are acting out, despite threats to calm down. It reminds me of the time a girl and her horse trainer were punishing a young horse for head tossing; my own daughter just watched the horse's body language, and realized that the bit was in the horse's mouth upside down!!
post #79 of 80
What is all comes down to for me is, the law is not going to tell me how to parent my child. End of subject. They can pass laws all day long, it makes no difference to me.
post #80 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
What is all comes down to for me is, the law is not going to tell me how to parent my child. End of subject. They can pass laws all day long, it makes no difference to me.

And I feel the same way.

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