Vaccinations

Another point to ponder ...

When people need to board their cats at the vet (in the event of an illness of accidental injury), ~most~ vets require a printed confirmation from a certified vet that the core vax have been properly administered. They will not accept self-vaccinations done at home by the owner. The problem with this is that we never know when the time will come for our pets to need to stay overnight at the clinic ... and if they must stay, then your vet will require you to allow him to re-vaccinate then and there, or else he will not board them. This opens up a whole new can of worms in the way of risk.

Be very, very careful with self-vaccination. Talk to your trusted vet BEFORE administering anything and make 100% absolutely certain you will be allowed to bring your cats in with those vaccines done at home.

That is a point to ponder but I could never board my cats unfortunately. I couldn't afford it. I wish I could though!!.. I have a small colony to put it mildly [23]... We have a trusted friend who would check on them and feed them. The kitties have in/out access to the house and also have an enclosed area within the enclosure for bad weather. The dogs I would board as I doubt they would let someone in the yard to feed them if we weren't home.. It would upset them too much. They are extremely territorial and guard fiercly when we aren't home.

But our friend woud be able to put food and water out for the cats in our house.

As it is now, we take seperate trips so the animals are never without one of us. It's what works for us.

But I truely appreciate what you have said.

Jenn

I'd like to point out that all Vets are not created equal. Some know what they are doing and some do not.

Case in point: I just had a client who bought 2 kittens from us email me. His kittens were Vax'd by us with the intra-nasal, but they had some other shots done at the Vet as well. Which is fine, but the idiot Vet gave the shots between the shoulder blades, which is a big no-no now, with all the injection site sarcoma's being reported. It's lower leg only now...that is the protocol.
Well guess who's 2 cats have lumps developing at the injection site?
Only a biopsy will tell if the lump is cancerous or pre-cancerous, but their "new" vet, a feline specialist has recommended they be completely removed. (Good for her)
If the first Vet had just been up to speed on how to administer Vax's, the cats wouldn't have to go through what now needs to be done. Sure, it's possible a lump would have formed on the lower leg, but that area is much easier to work on surgically.

Just remember Vets are people too, they don't know everything, it's up to you find a good one and then still.........do your own research so you can speak intelligently with them about what your cat is being treated for or injected with and most importantly where the injection site is.

Excellent point Nial. I have a vet within walking distance of me, but instead I drive 35 minutes to a feline specialist that I trust. Yes, my vet does charge a bit more for some things than other vets, but in her case I feel I am getting what I pay for.

I dont know a whole lot about the intranasal vaccine for cats. BUt what I can tell you is do NOT vaccinate your cat for FeLV unless your cats go outside, are exposed to cats who are possible carriers, or go out on to a screen inclosed porch. FeLV and 3 year rabies vaccines have the HIGHEST rate of fibrosarcoma associated with them.
That being said, the vets I work for use Merial's Purevax FVRCPC vaccine. The purevax brands have NO adjuvants in them that are known to cause fibrosarcoma. I do NOT know if these are for sale to the public but they are one of the top of the line vaccines.
Also the protocol for injectable vaccines is.... Rabies goes in the right rear leg (on the lower thigh and not on the hip. If a fibrosarcoma does occur it will be difficult to remove it from the hip. If its on the leg, the leg can be amputated.) The distemper vaccine goes in the right front leg, the FeLV vaccine goes in the left rear leg and the FIV vaccine goes in the left front leg. They do not rotate because if the cat has a reaction almost any vet will know what vaccine the cat is reacting to.
I would NEVER recommend getting an FIP vaccine to ANY cat. Its only 56% effective most of the time and in some cats it has been known to cause FIP. It is NOT a good vaccine.
Lastly, the killed vaccines are better because there is less of a chance the cat having a vaccine reaction or getting the disease you are trying to vaccinate for.

As with anything I would do some serious research into the company you are purchasing from. Find out if they have any type of guarantee. A LOT of places make counterfeits or vaccines that don't even work. Make sure they have good feedback and that you are buying directly from the company. If you by from a third party there is a greater chance they could be counterfeits.

I hope I helped in someway...

Originally Posted by gayef

Another point to ponder ...

When people need to board their cats at the vet (in the event of an illness of accidental injury), ~most~ vets require a printed confirmation from a certified vet that the core vax have been properly administered. They will not accept self-vaccinations done at home by the owner. The problem with this is that we never know when the time will come for our pets to need to stay overnight at the clinic ... and if they must stay, then your vet will require you to allow him to re-vaccinate then and there, or else he will not board them. This opens up a whole new can of worms in the way of risk.

Be very, very careful with self-vaccination. Talk to your trusted vet BEFORE administering anything and make 100% absolutely certain you will be allowed to bring your cats in with those vaccines done at home.

Click to expand...

Very very valid ... i know of six cases where animals were re vaxinated within a few months due to this issue...

I just saw a intranasel vax used on a kitten a few weeks back .... I am unsure about that method since the kitten seemed to get most of the vax on the face not in ...

Originally Posted by sharky

Very very valid ... i know of six cases where animals were re vaxinated within a few months due to this issue...

Click to expand...

I understand........but.....who's fault is it that the animals were re-vax'd?

It's the owners fault. Vet's have no power to force vaccine's upon you. If they refuse to treat your animal, demanding that you re-vax a cat that you know was already vaccinated, find another Vet.

The Vet may be doing what they feel is in the best interest of their practice, but the animal owner must always do what is in the best interest of their pet.
And, having said that, if you live somewhere, where all the Vets are on the same side of the fence about this issue, then what's right for your pet may be to re-vax, just so they can be seen for whatever else is needed.

That being said, the vets I work for use Merial's Purevax FVRCPC vaccine. The purevax brands have NO adjuvants in them that are known to cause fibrosarcoma. I do NOT know if these are for sale to the public but they are one of the top of the line vaccines.

Click to expand...

I will find that out about the purevax brands because under no circumstance will I give my cats a shot with ADJUVANTS as an added ingredient..

Thanks for that info.... I feel they do need a feline leuk shot because they do go out in an enclosure. At this time, none of mine have feline leuk. Thank god. All I need is the feline leuk shot. The others, or at least at this writing, I plan on going nasel.

I found this so far........ all injectable. I am glad to know this is one affordable brand with no ADJUVANTS . I have a little thinking to do to figure out how/what type vaccines I am going to give the next time. And that time is coming up real soon.

PureVax Feline 3 $121.00 FOR 25 DOSES
Recommended for the vaccination of healthy cats 6 weeks of age and older for prevention of disease due to feline rhinotracheitis, calici, and panleukopenia viruses.

OR

PureVax Feline 4 $141.95 FOR 25 DOSES
Recommended for the vaccination of healthy cats 6 weeks of age and older for prevention of disease due to feline rhinotracheitis, calici, and panleukopenia viruses and as an aid in the reduction of disease due to Chlamydia psittaci.

=======================
HERE'S A BETTER DEAL..... and still no ADJUVANTS added to the product.... I just might consider this after I read a little more regarding percentages of ADJUVANT vs non ADJUVANT and sarcomas concerning the injectables. The last link covers the cat leuk as well which I want. I might consider this.

PureVax Feline 4 $116.80 FOR 25 DOSES "BEST DEAL!!

DESCRIPTION:
PUREVAX™ Feline 4 contains a lyophilized suspension of modified live felinerhinotracheitis, calici, and panleukopenia viruses and Chlamydia psittaci,each propagated in a stable cell line, plus sterile water diluent. Safety andimmunogenicity of this product have been demonstrated by vaccination andchallenge tests in susceptible cats.

OR

PureVax Feline 4 + LeuCat $128.70 FOR 25 DOSES "BEST DEAL!!

Modified Live Virus and Chlamydia and Killed Virus
DESCRIPTION: PUREVAX™ Feline 4 + LEUCAT® contains a lyophilized suspension of modified live feline rhinotracheitis, calici, and panleukopenia viruses and Chlamydia psittaci propagated in stable cell lines, plus a liquid suspension of inactivated feline leukemia virus propagated in a continuously infected lymphoid cell line which expresses subgroups A, B, and C. PUREVAXTM Feline 4 + LEUCAT® stimulates serum neutralizing antibodies against the whole virus as well as viral components including gp70. Safety and immunogenicity of this product have been demonstrated by vaccination and challenge tests in susceptible cats.

This is a link discussing different types of vaccines..

http://purevax.us.merial.com/benefits.asp From the purevax perspective.

Live vs Killed vs Recombinant

BE SURE AND WATCH THE VIDEO.......IT IS SIMPLY AMAZING...

Heres a good chart that is pretty self explanatory and it is a great guide as far as which companies use ADJUVANTS and which don't....
It came from this link..
http://www.dvmvac.org/index.asp


What is interesting on this site is the study.......I plan on reading more studies however.
http://www.dvmvac.org/sarcomas.asp

Just a few thoughts if someone cares to listen:

DIY vaccines can be dangerous even when you mean well. Vets will not vaccinate your cat if there are health issues. With cats in a colony, health issues can stay hidden. Vaccinating a sick animal runs the risk of that cat becoming quite ill or worse.

Nasal vaccines are fairly new. They are not without their own risks and side effects.

Some of the vaccines on the market today are cheap imitations of the real thing. Manufactured for one reason, to give a false sense of security to the cat owner, and to make money for the drug manufacturer. Last year, due to the actions of cat lovers, the Dur-Vet website was taken down due to misleading information presented there. they have now revamped their website.

In a feral colony, natural selection rules out the diseased and the infirm. Once the cats are living together, are all deemed healthy and are protected in the enclosure, it would be very rare for this group to come down with infectious diseases. Yes, it can happen, but it would be a stretch if it did.

When you take your cat(s) to the vet to be vaccinated, you are protected more than if you just vaccinated them yourself. Your vet can talk to you about the ins and outs of live viruses versus dead ones. he is schooled on how to properly vaccinate cats, your cat will receive an exam and your vet can talk to you about any problems found at the time. Plus, the vaccine is protected and guaranteed. Your vet purchased the lot of vaccines, and if anything goes wrong, you have a course of action that might even include free vet visits if something happens as a result of the injection.

Are you saving money? No doubt you are. But is it worth it in the long run? Personally, I do not think so. You can't take a full colony of wild cats into the vet for shots, but cats living in an enclosure are used to being handled. Many vets will make farm calls and come out and mass vaccinate a group. That stops the stress of the cats visiting the clinic, and all that is left is for the caretaker to catch the cats, put them in a trap, use the metal fingers to force them into a corner of the trap where they can be vaccinated without any harm coming to the vet.

Just my thoughts on this topic. I would personally never mass self-vaccinate my group. Never, in a million years. To big a risk. I worked hard to rescue these guys. They count on me to keep them safe. I do all I can on my end to see that they are.

It never even crossed my mind about a farm visit.... I KNEW it would be impossible to take 23 cats to the vet. That's why I was thinking about doing it myself actually. That is a great idea. I have been reading on vaccines for hrs and hrs today. At this time, only about 10-11 are due for their shots. I'd have to get their papers out to see. The rest have a few months to go.

I will look into this from a farm visit perspective. I only have one cat that is ill right now. He is not due his shots but he is due a vet visit on Monday.

One thing you said makes absolute sense to me. Everything I have read today say if your cat goes outside [enclosure or not] they need the cat leuk shot. My thoughts on this are if they never come into contact with another cat then how could they get cat leuk...??? They all appear healthy. They have all been tested for all the basic things and have had neg tests for feline aides and leuk.

What shots do you give your cats? Is core all I would need then? I need advise on this. The vets in my area migth not be the best... The good ones are quite a distance away and probably would not drive this far...

There is one however that crosses my mind that had a clinic where we lived in Arkansas and her clinic/hsp is in the same town we currently work in. I have recently found out she has a clinic in a town approx 20 miles from me that is open one day a week. She might make a farm visit.. She is a wonderful vet that until we moved to Missouri, all my animals went to her and we never had a bad experience there. We used her for years and years.

I do have another question. What is a DIY vaccine???

edit.............DYI.....DO IT YOURSELF........

I might have 24???? I have to write their names down to count them...

I have to agree with Hissy, I would never self vaccinate. Not only would I not feel too comfortable at knowing it had been done right, but my vet will check things that I can't do (heart, temp, eyes) to make sure they are fine to receive that vaccine at that time. Plus you are at a vets long enough for a vet to do something if they have a reaction - at home, you could lose them if they did. And I dont think that just cos they have had it before means they wont have a reaction, esp if it is a different brand.

I agree tiger. Those were just things I never thought of.

I already tried calling the vet I have in mind and they will be closed till Monday. I'll see if they do farm visits then....

Jenn...you are fortunate that Hissy responded to your questions about vaccines in your thread.
Her knowledge about working with ferals and house cats is impeccable.
If she recommends something, I would listen.

More thoughts about the problems found in this one thread:

To my knowledge, Merial no longer sells the "PureVax Feline 4 + LeuCat" as it has been posted here, and if this is available through an on-line pet store or pet pharmacy, there is a chance it is a discontinued product, or an expired product, or a counterfeit product. Merial often claims that they do not sell the majority of their products to fly-by-night pet pharmacies and online pet stores, although a few do get in somehow, through other avenues.

If this is the way you wish to go, than I would advise you to call Merial and ask them if they sell vaccines to the general public, through pet stores, online pet stores or online pharmacies that are liscensed in their prospective states. If the call results in Merial asking where you saw their products listed it is likely Merial is not going to be happy that someone found a way to gain their product without their knowledge.

Sometimes, legitimate online pet pharmacies, like Drs Foster and Smith, etc do contract with Merial and other vaccine manufacturers, but they must be in a contract and be licensed to sell the product in that state.

The most legetimate method of obtaining any vaccine online would only be through the owner's vet's website pharmacy, or through something like Vetcentric, which is only through licensed vets anyway.

Even if Merial did sell to online pet stores, it is unlikely that they monitor the site. While the Merial products are good, their monitoring online for dubious selling can be problematic for them.

Problem #2: One really should stagger any vaccines, at least 4 weeks apart, so that they do not tax the immune system. The product "PureVax Feline 4 + LeuCat" (if it is even still marketed by Merial), is an extra tax on the cat's system because the 3-way is already in the vaccine, most likely the administration route is over the right scapula, as distally as possible on the right front fore leg.

With the leukemia vaccine, this should be given in the left rear leg, as distally as possible. (one poster mentioned vaccines given in the hip, "5-ways" are generally not used anymore because of this and for the inherent risk.


Problem #3: The Merial Purevax Recombinant Luekemia vaccine states in it's MSDS to give to healthy kittens *9 weeks of age*, not 6 or 8 weeks Also, testing for FELV/FIV should always be done before any vaccines are given to any healthy kitten or cat.

The Purevax Recombinant Leukemia vaccine is also to be administered with the VetJet, which is what was designed to deliver the vaccine appropriately. Using in any other method voids the effectiveness.


Problem #4: Pet owners will NOT EVER have a safety gaurantee if they buy vaccines on the net (same applies to flea products and other common products). Merial, nor any other major vaccine manufacturer will NOT reimburse you for a product you obtained online or through a pet store unless they were contracted with the manufacturer. 99.9999999 percent of gurantees are only honored when the pet owner's VET has given the pet an exam and only when the VET has administered the vaccine.

Problem #5: Pet owners cannot gaurantee the safety of vaccines when they are shipped. Temperature control and handling are crucial for vaccines. Vets have their vaccines shipped timely, in special-packs and store them properly immediately upon receipt of the packaging.... and if an incident occured that affected storage, shipping, handling, or temperature, the vet will be able to replace the product. Pet owners CAN NOT.

Most pet owners don't know how to properly store vaccines, how to properly mix them. Many believe they can effectively mix up a vaccine, let it sit around for a couple hours, or forget that it was in direct sunlight, etc, and think the vaccine will still be effective. Not true!


The bottom line, pet owners really should not self-vaccinate their pets. Sometimes instructions are hard to follow- even hard to read! They use such small print. I often think they DON'T want us to read these! The vaccines are not bought from reputable sources and unless they know how to do the research they could get counterfeit drugs that don't help but ultimately harm the pet.

They don't get their pets examined appropriately prior to self-vaccinations either further adding to the danger.

With a vet's administration of vaccines, you get a full comprehensive exam, detecting any problems and addressing them prior to vaccination. Testing for FELV/FIV is crucial for any cat with an unknown vaccination history, AND in those cats who's owners have laxed in regular vet care and lax vaccination schedules. You also have a record of any vaccine given, the type, the brand, the scheduling, recording of any reactions, etc.

There is always a risk for complications/reactions, and if the owner doesn't get veterinary care immediately after a serious reaction, the consequences can be severe.

Most owners aren't aware enough to recognize the signs of a serious reaction, and many who do, get veterinary care when it is too late. Just take a quick look at all the panicked posts in this forum about owners talking about post-vaccination behaviors in their cats and wondering if it is "normal?"


Not all vaccines are the same. When pet owners don't understand the differences in types of vaccines, and for their purposes, the pet is at risk. A veterinary exam with the vaccinations are the safest approach to vaccinations. Am I stressing this point yes. I just wrote an article about this issue and I learned a lot from people in the know.


The risk factors: since there is so much misinformation propogated on the net, pet owners don't have a clue what a "risk factor" actually is. Just because they keep their cats indoors does not mean there is no risk. Many pet owners adopt strays and ferals, adopt new unvaccinated animals, foster or rescue animals, adopt from infected shelters, and never know or address their vaccination concerns. Age, health, history, environment, physiology all play a major role in the determination of vaccinations, and this can only be determined by a vet who has seen the pet regularly, in order to make the best decisions for the *individual* pet. Vaccinations are tailored to the *individual*, not everyone else's cats.

The AAFP has recently published the most common (and up-to-date) vaccine protocol guideline for cats, including vital information on testing and risk factors. Knowing this protocol as a pet owner will go a long way in protecting the cats you have brought into your home to keep safe. The guidlines there are tailored to the individual house cat (pet).

I am not trying to be heavy-handed here. Writing about cats, health issues, behavior etc has made me aware of many shady practices, myths and misconceptions that are "out there." Sadly, on the Internet a lot of this misinformation abounds. There are no internet fact checkers (that I know of) I do know that quality websites make sure that the information posted on their website is on the mark, and will do no harm to the animal. Remember that vaccinations are viruses- both alive and dead depending on the vaccine. Just stay aware of the fact that this foreign body introduced into a cat's system not from a reputable firm can quickly strip your finances should something go wrong, or worse case scenario your cat may pay for your actions with its life.

Just some things to consider about this subject-




MA

I am walking out the door to work right now. When I get to work I will reread this as I only have time to scan it now and respond.

Thank you Hissy.....

Hissy

Thank you for all the info ... i deal with a lot of " i want to do it cause it is cheaper folks" and now I have a decent knowledge base