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post #31 of 53
What I find the most disturbing about PETA is that their founder/leader seems to be one of the more extreme people in their group. If you do a search for 'Ingrid Newkirk quotes' you will find many very disturbing quotes by their founder/leader Ingrid Newkirk. Any organization run by someone who is that extremist is NOT something I would ever consider supporting. PETA has tried to tone down their image in recent years to become more inviting to the pet-owning public but if you search you can find their real goals which include that no one should be allowed to own pets and that dogs should not even be used for police work or assistance/guide dog work. I have a friend who is very into "animal rights" (she is a vegetarian and will not eat eggs due to factory farming, etc...) and even she refuses to support PETA.
HSUS is more insidious which worries me... They portray themselves as a pet friendly organization and seem to hide behind their work with animal shelters (which they don't actually RUN any shelters, but most people think they DO) while publicly denying their true purposes and their ties to eco-terrorism organizations.

Also just wanted to add this link which talks about HSUS: (you need to scroll down to get to it) http://www.master-dog-training.com/archive/082704.htm
post #32 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by catsallover View Post
One of the articles I linked basically said that the difference between Peta and your average pet owner is that Peta is for animal RIGHTS, whereas, most responsible pet owners are for animal WELFARE. That being, the one wants all animals to exist as wild, feral animals, as if humans weren't on the planet, and the latter wants to promote responsible pet ownership, and the well being of animals, whatever their situation. Animal welfare, I can support... . I really want to believe that most of the average joe people who support these groups simply don't know what the leaders are saying they stand for, behind the publicity...
Someone did their homework and that is exactly how they stay in business by misleading people as to their REAL AGENDA. Its high time that the "Animal Rights" groups are left by the wayside and the "Animal Welfare" groups can then gain some of the support of the responsible pet owners of America and other countries. I'd be VERY CAREFUL of supporting the Humane Society of the United States also..........they do not support or own ONE SINGLE animal shelter in ANY state. They are on the same side of the track as P.E.T.A. If you really want to help animals.........give your support to your LOCAL SHELTER as they can and will utilize it in the proper ways. I about got *ousted* from another site for stating the facts about both of these groups. I didn't get ousted.......I just don't go to that site anymore. I will say that it is a very popular site. My concerns are more to the people that truly do understand the differences between animal welfare and animal rights.

Winter Hawk
post #33 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter Hawk View Post
Someone did their homework and that is exactly how they stay in business by misleading people as to their REAL AGENDA. Its high time that the "Animal Rights" groups are left by the wayside and the "Animal Welfare" groups can then gain some of the support of the responsible pet owners of America and other countries. I'd be VERY CAREFUL of supporting the Humane Society of the United States also..........they do not support or own ONE SINGLE animal shelter in ANY state. They are on the same side of the track as P.E.T.A. If you really want to help animals.........give your support to your LOCAL SHELTER as they can and will utilize it in the proper ways. I about got *ousted* from another site for stating the facts about both of these groups. I didn't get ousted.......I just don't go to that site anymore. I will say that it is a very popular site. My concerns are more to the people that truly do understand the differences between animal welfare and animal rights.
Winter Hawk
The same thing happened to me. I made a casual remark about PETA horning in to get publicity over a case where a cop shot a pit bull and left it to die and BOY did I get flamed. Some people don't get it, which I think is a shame. PETA was found by the FBI to recruit interns from Asia to do the dirty work of commiting petty crimes to get free media attention, they contributed (tax-exempt) fund to the legal defense of convicted arsonist Rodney Coronado, and they glorify acts of vandalism. It is beyond me how anyone can support them. Years ago they may have been the voice of a badly needed conscience towards animals, but now they have gone off the deep end.
post #34 of 53
Has anyone watched the news lately two PETA workers were caught dumping bags of bodies of cats and dogs and they were not fired and PETA is paying for their legal counsel. That should tell somebody something anyone who would support someone who did something like that is evil right down to the core of their being. I was raised by a farmer and I know alot of people don't agree with farming but I can tell you this any farmer worth their salt in their brows is good to their animals and always takes care of them because sick animals for one thing don't get a farmer anywhere. I have raised beef cows from the time I could walk and we were never cruel to our animals. Yet if peta had their way cows and other livestock would be set loose to fend for themselves and I am sorry but its not possible cows have been domesticated for thousands of years even longer than cats and they cannot survive on their own and maintain a staple life. My family has always been heavy dairy users and most of them live to be in their 80s and 90s and my dad is the youngest of his siblins and he's 67 so most of them was without modern intervention. My dogs are not only my pets they are my family but if PETA had their way my dogs would be euthanized, which is what they do to 80% of the companion animals they claim to rescue, yet my dogs live in a nice comfy home and never have to worry about where their next meal will come from. The same with my cat she never has to think of her next meal. And to tell you the truth she is a bit on the hefty side. But if Peta had its way she would be turned loose to fend for herself. Peta supports law makers who wish to put bans on breeds such as pit bulls, great danes, mastifs, huskies, and other large breeds. Their founder was bitten by a pit so she says and therefore she deems that they need to be exterminated. I am sorry but they are completely wrong.

That being sad I am all for animal welfare in my opionion all cats and dogs and other companion animals should be treated with the utmost respect and they should be in our homes and loved but that doesn't mean I don't believe in peoples right to be farmers if they go about it in an ethical manner and it is possible. I believe hunting is a nessacity I live out in the country and if we don't have hunters the deer and turkey population would esculate to dangerous numbers for their well being. Not too long back my cousin shot two bucks and they were so small due to sickness from over population that he got them both in one shot and if you have ever lived near deer when they are healthy they are huge. These bucks were not babies yet they were no bigger than my lab. They were sickly we couldn't even keep the meat for fear of disease. Yet some people would have them continue down this path which could lead to extinction. Coyotes are at large numbers in my area as well. They have become so bold that they will snatch my chickens in my front yard in broad daylight with my dogs nearby barking and my dad within walking distance. They need their numbers controlled as well or disease takes over. My dad once saw one that was so eaten up with mange that he had lost his tail.

I guess I got a bit carried away but PETA just really burns me up. If they had their way we would turn our animals outside and basically forget they are even here and then what horrible things would our animals have to deal with. And what would happen to our world with that unbalance of the ecosystem. People really need to think about this and completely boycott PETA and any of their radical friends.
post #35 of 53
Family farms are heaven for animals compared to the behemoth and IMO, should be illegal, factory corporate land-raping "farms" that are actually tin warehouses full of animals in a constant state of dying, wallowing in each others filth. The vast majority of animal products do not come from farms like your family's, the kind being put out of business by monopolizing meat factories.

I agree with what you said, Tavia's Mom... I just wish even the majority the animals used for humans' food were treated like that.
post #36 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
Family farms are heaven for animals compared to the behemoth and IMO, should be illegal, factory corporate land-raping "farms" that are actually tin warehouses full of animals in a constant state of dying, wallowing in each others filth. The vast majority of animal products do not come from farms like your family's, the kind being put out of business by monopolizing meat factories.

I agree with what you said, Tavia's Mom... I just wish even the majority the animals used for humans' food were treated like that.
You're right factory farms and real family farms and ranches are two completely different things. And I don't believe in factory farms one reason is because of them small farms such as us are being stamped out. Not sure if you know this but we rescently sold our cattle and our farm all but a few acres of my grandpa's place. And mostly due to the fact that we couldn't make it anymore. And to people who think that inserting wildlife in areas that they weren't originally in is okay. And then not allowing us to atleast keep the numbers down. And this effects the animals that belong here by stamping them out. Its a bad cycle factory farms produce a huge amount of the polutions in the world. Did you know that cows put off more green house gases than anything else. Especially when in factory farms because its all concentrated. It ruins our waterways and landscapes. But what are we supposed to do with the animals in them. If PETA had their way they would all be killed and in vain. True farms use every part of the animal possible so nothing is wasted and its not true in the big outfits. We used to kill our own calf about once every so often and trust me there is a world of difference in the meat from a calf raised on a family farm and the meat from a store. And the same goes for eggs and chickens. Too bad not everyone knows this. Maybe they could help those animals and true farmers if they all knowed these things but it won't happen because PETA made animal welfare people look like psychos.
post #37 of 53
I am good old Ohio farming stock myself... and me and my sister are both vegetarians. I remember the food my extended family used to make, when my greataunt would go outside and kill a chicken and then cook it. You're right, it's a huge difference. Me and my sister are both vegetarian now, me personally in large part because of where the meat you get off-the-rack shall we say comes from. And you're so dead-on about the pollution. Most people won't believe that animals make pollution... because what people think of is that all farms are like Charlotte's Web.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...orst_polluters
(warning, graphic photo of a pile of dead pigs)

Whole counties are ill from industrial farming, other people's livelihoods being ruined, and the same is true in other industrial farming industries.

This is where, though, Peta gets it wrong. People are going to continue to choose to eat meat. There is no point in doing anything but being supportive of others who decide not to, and gently educating people if they ask you about being vegetarian. What there is a point in doing is trying to get people to realize what they are actually eating, and what those farms are really like, and also get them to realize that it is worth it to make the extra effort and get meat from non-industrial-farming sources. In this day and age, it is totally possible for everyone to do so. And to these companies, there is no voice louder than their own customers realizing what they're eating and switching to meat that is not made by a company who ruins everything as a policy.

Instead, PETA just flips out and yells at people for eating any meat at all. Way to get NOBODY to listen to you.
post #38 of 53
I am so happy that everyone is starting to see the true evil side of ALL Animal rights groups. Nothing will please me more, than to see PETA, HSUS, API and other AR groups go down in flames. Now we must get our government officials to see this as well, so they will stop supporting these groups and their horrible, useless, animal legislation and ban bills. In every state, county and city in the US that has a ban bill, most, if not all, were written by these same AR groups. These groups must be stopped now, before it is to late or pet ownership will be just a thing of the past and part of history. I am not just talking about exotic animal ownership (this is quickly becoming a thing of the past), but ALL animal ownership
post #39 of 53
Thread Starter 
Sorry, I will forever be a skeptic. I can't escape the bondage of empiricism.

Can either of you provide evidence that all industrial farms are somehow bad? What scientific research has been done to support your theory that organic farming is somehow better?

Not being confrontational or even disagreeing (yet). I just like to see as much of both sides of the argument as possible before making any assumptions.

In the meantime, here's a few a pretty interesting articles:
http://www.junkscience.com/mar01/trewavas.pdf

http://www.mindfully.org/Food/Organi...al-Complex.htm

As with a many trendy things that are promoted as 'good' for the environment/society/animals/etc., its really hard to find any objective studies on the issue. Someone says organic farming is good and heres why. It seems to make sense, so every goes along with it, never questioning the sources or validity of the arguments. This is one of the reasons PETA has become so powerful.

Again, I'm not pointing fingers or taking sides or whatever, I was just taught to question EVERYTHING...
post #40 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt View Post
Sorry, I will forever be a skeptic. I can't escape the bondage of empiricism.

Can either of you provide evidence that all industrial farms are somehow bad? What scientific research has been done to support your theory that organic farming is somehow better?

Not being confrontational or even disagreeing (yet). I just like to see as much of both sides of the argument as possible before making any assumptions.

In the meantime, here's a few a pretty interesting articles:
http://www.junkscience.com/mar01/trewavas.pdf

http://www.mindfully.org/Food/Organi...al-Complex.htm

As with a many trendy things that are promoted as 'good' for the environment/society/animals/etc., its really hard to find any objective studies on the issue. Someone says organic farming is good and heres why. It seems to make sense, so every goes along with it, never questioning the sources or validity of the arguments. This is one of the reasons PETA has become so powerful.

Again, I'm not pointing fingers or taking sides or whatever, I was just taught to question EVERYTHING...
1) I did not mention anything, really, about organic farms vs industrial farms. That's a polarization I never made. Farms that are run by regular farmers, like the ones not much more than a decade ago mostly were, rather than things that are more factory than farm, are what I'm talking about.

2) Did you happen to read the article I linked? Had you, you would know exactly what I mean by industrial farming.

3) I'm glad you question everything. Go to an organic food store. Buy some fruits or veggies. Eat them. Make your own decision. The only point I need to make for myself to support why I buy organic produce and milk (though not necessarily bread/snacks/etc.) is that things put on food in order to kill other things probably aren't good for you. "Organic" isn't really a trend at all. It's a reversion to how humans have grown their food for thousands of years, up until the past few decades. It's how the majority of people in the world still do grow their food. In order to change that, I'd like to see a study done on why spraying everything with pesticides and stuffing cows full of hormones and antibiotics (because they live in such bad conditions that they'd die otherwise) is better for me. But, that is not what I was talking about in my previous posts. You say you are a skeptic... why be skeptic of "organic" when you should be skeptical of anything else?
post #41 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
1) I did not mention anything, really, about organic farms vs industrial farms. That's a polarization I never made. Farms that are run by regular farmers, like the ones not much more than a decade ago mostly were, rather than things that are more factory than farm, are what I'm talking about.

2) Did you happen to read the article I linked? Had you, you would know exactly what I mean by industrial farming.

3) I'm glad you question everything. Go to an organic food store. Buy some fruits or veggies. Eat them. Make your own decision. The only point I need to make for myself to support why I buy organic produce and milk (though not necessarily bread/snacks/etc.) is that things put on food in order to kill other things probably aren't good for you. "Organic" isn't really a trend at all. It's a reversion to how humans have grown their food for thousands of years, up until the past few decades. It's how the majority of people in the world still do grow their food. In order to change that, I'd like to see a study done on why spraying everything with pesticides and stuffing cows full of hormones and antibiotics (because they live in such bad conditions that they'd die otherwise) is better for me. But, that is not what I was talking about in my previous posts. You say you are a skeptic... why be skeptic of "organic" when you should be skeptical of anything else?
1. I believe it was implied. You said: Family farms are heaven for animals compared to the behemoth and IMO, should be illegal, factory corporate land-raping "farms" that are actually tin warehouses full of animals in a constant state of dying, wallowing in each others filth. And it is evident that you consider 'family farms' to be organic by your reply #3.

2. Yes, I read that article that mentions one particular industrial farm. Pretty ugly practices. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any sources for the studies referenced in that article.

3. I've done the commercial organic food thing. I used to be a vegitarian. I grow much my own fruits and vegitables when weather permits. I don't use any pesticides, unless you count a mixture of Joy dishwashing liquid and water for aphids (and that mostly just for my roses and strawberries). Did you by chance read the articles I linked to? They mention specifically how organic farms DO use pesticides that are sometimes more harmful than those used in conventional farming. They just can't be synthetic, which doesn't make them intrinsically better anyway. And like I said, I'm skeptical of EVERYTHING. I also said I like to hear the pro's and con's of BOTH sides. So yes, I am also skeptical of the very article that I linked to. Why have you assumed that I am only skeptical of organic farming?
post #42 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt View Post
1. I believe it was implied. You said: Family farms are heaven for animals compared to the behemoth and IMO, should be illegal, factory corporate land-raping "farms" that are actually tin warehouses full of animals in a constant state of dying, wallowing in each others filth. And it is evident that you consider 'family farms' to be organic by your reply #3.
No I don't. I think I made that about as clear as I possibly can.
post #43 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
1) Farms that are run by regular farmers, like the ones not much more than a decade ago mostly were, rather than things that are more factory than farm, are what I'm talking about.
By this, I was assuming you meant you were talking about 'family farmers' (which is what you and taviasmom were discussing previously in comparison to industrial farms)? Was I incorrect in that assumption?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
"Organic" isn't really a trend at all. It's a reversion to how humans have grown their food for thousands of years, up until the past few decades. It's how the majority of people in the world still do grow their food.
By this, it seemed clear to me that this was the same kind of farmer as the previous quote. Was I also incorrect in that assumption?

It seemed to me that you considered organic farming to be any farming that existed before the "past few decades". Since you used that phrase in both quotes, I guess I got confused...
post #44 of 53
Why debate whether or not I think they're the same thing? I've said at least twice now that I don't... If you're convinced I do, fine. But I don't. A decade and a few decades, to me, are about sixty years apart. Sorry for being so vague, though.

Anyway...
post #45 of 53
Honestly, I think PETA goes way too far with a lot of things. I love animals but I don't support PETA.
post #46 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
Why debate whether or not I think they're the same thing? I've said at least twice now that I don't... If you're convinced I do, fine. But I don't. A decade and a few decades, to me, are about sixty years apart. Sorry for being so vague, though.

Anyway...
Why argue semantics? Because you didn't seem to want to talk about any of the other points. But yeah... Whatever...
post #47 of 53
If anyone is interested in the ongoing PETA trial here is a link



http://www.petakillsanimals.com/Trial_Day4.cfm
post #48 of 53
Someone posted this on another site where there is a PETA discussion going on. I did not realize that they went this far. Apparently they had out flyers with this crud on it to elementary school children.

I don't know whether they are deliberately trying to alienate little kids from their parents or harness so-called "pester power" but I think this is revolting.
post #49 of 53
You're right. It's horrid!
post #50 of 53
Quote:
Someone posted this on another site where there is a PETA discussion going on. I did not realize that they went this far. Apparently they had out flyers with this crud on it to elementary school children.

I don't know whether they are deliberately trying to alienate little kids from their parents or harness so-called "pester power" but I think this is revolting
What really angers me, is that our schools ALLOW this crap to be handed out They ban prayer and GOD from our public schools, but allow a TERRORIST group, (PETA) to spread their BS to our kids!! Your TAX money is being wasted on this!! If anyone has kids in a school that allows this, make sure you tell them that you will never support any tax levy for that school, if they continue to allow PETA to spread their lies and terror to our kids. PETA, HSUS, API and all Animal Rights groups must be BANNED from our schools. It is NOT up to the schools to teach our children this and it must be stopped.
post #51 of 53
Yeah well good luck with that. Maybe you did not hear about these PETA people coming into elementary schools in Vermont (more cows than people ) a few years back and coercing the teachers to remove the "got milk" posters from the classrooms under threat of lawsuit. When the governor found out, he ordered the posters put back, and told the teachers that there would be a special apopropriation of state funds to defend them if those PETA idiots made good on their threat, They slunk back to Virginia with their tails between their legs.
post #52 of 53
I always loved Vermont and this is just one more reason to do so. This Governor deserves a huge thumbs up for that one I think all animal owners should file a lawsuit against PETA for harassment. Sounds like a very good plan to me
post #53 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by hissy View Post
If anyone is interested in the ongoing PETA trial here is a link

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/Trial_Day4.cfm
This just makes me sick These PETA jerks just got off scott free for murdering puppies and kittens They were found guilty of illegal dumping, but found not guilty for animal cruelty This jury was as stupid as the PETA members themselves. When are we ever going to get rid of PETA and all these other terrorist animal rights groups. They can get away with anything they want and this just makes me angry. I urge everyone on this cite to tell everyone they know. DO NOT support these groups. PETA, HSUS, API and others.
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