Real Turkish Van Cat

Hi there,
According to what I read, the history of Turkish Van Cat is two British ladies called Laura Lushington and Sonia Halliday buys two cats from Turkey as Turkish Vans. You can see picture of one with his kitten below



These cats brought from Turkey supposed to be a hybrid actually because in Turkey the real "Turkish Van Cat" is an all white cat with odd eyes (sometimes blue or yellow eyes) which have ability to swim. As you can see below:

http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resim:Turkish_Van_Cat.jpg[/IMG

As almost all Turkish Vans around the world in the trade comes from those cats in Bratain. As the "known" Turkish Van probably carries many same genes so it still makes the hybrid Turkish Van a different cat from others. However, it still sounds strange for a hybrid cat to be known as the "standards" while pure natural breeds of this cat is living in their natural habitat. I think Turkish Van standards should change to real Turkish Van cats standards.

What you think?

I can't see the pictures.

There is the Turkish Angora which was bred in the Zoo (only white cats were kept for breeding in all 3 eye colors) and the Turkish Vans which were in another part of Turkey. They are different in type too.

The vans are white with markings on the head and tail. They are known more to be swimming cats, but both the Angora and Van like water.

Here's CFA's link to both:

Angora:

http://www.cfainc.org/breeds/profile...sh-angora.html

Van:

http://www.cfainc.org/breeds/profiles/turkish-van.html

Originally Posted by ozadars

These cats brought from Turkey supposed to be a hybrid actually because in Turkey the real "Turkish Van Cat" is an all white cat with odd eyes (sometimes blue or yellow eyes) which have ability to swim. As you can see below:

Click to expand...

A hybrid of what, exactly? I'm not familiar with the history of the Turkish Vans. I don't agree with a lot of things that some of the cat registries do (especially CFA) but the only way to change anything in them is from within. Do you own a Turkish Van? Are you showing that cat(s)? Are you a member of the breed council? Things to consider...

I am just a cat owner from Turkey but not a Turkish Van owner. Turkish Van and Turkish Angora cats are known very well by Turkish people even by people who doesnt know a thing about cats. Turkish Angora cats are white cats. They are not found in other colors here (the pure breeds) but other that Turkish Angora standards are almost same with the pure breeds in Turkey.

I dont know hybrid of what, it is what I have read from wikipedia. As they are "bought" by Laura Lushington and Sonia Halliday, they were hybrids of a Van and a regular domestic cat. Real Turkish Van cats are white with odd eyes and thats what I know like rest of the Turkish people. There are breeding programmes of Universities about real Turkish Vans but they are all totally white cats with odd, blue or yellow eyes with other physical standards.

For the pictures check the link below
http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_kedisi
First picture is a pure breed Turkish Van, which is a natural breed cat and second picture is the cat that brought to Britain as Turkish Van.

Are you saying that 'real' turkish vans are not domestic cats? That they are 'wild' cats?

Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt

Are you saying that 'real' turkish vans are not domestic cats? That they are 'wild' cats?

Click to expand...

I don't think they mean wild as much as spontaneous mutation, like the Maine Coon is.

Oh, in otherwords, a 'natural' breed. There is a breed called 'Thai Cats' that are said to be the original siamese. They come in pointed colors and also as solid white odd-eyed cats and korats.

http://www.andrew-gray.com/thailand/cats.html

http://www.basilisk.co.uk/siamese/index.html
(click on the faces of the cats for the bios)

CFA only recognizes the Korats. While I believe that the modern show style siamese are beautiful and graceful, I do not believe they represent what the original siamese looked like... Thank heaven for this wonderful tool called the internet! I own the Siamese Cat Book by Vera M. Nelson (not an easy book to find, esp the 1956 edition) and the cats pictured and described look nothing like the siamese in the show hall today.

There has been a sucessful push in some coutries to include the old'style siamese as a separate breed (know as Thai Cats). I don't think this is fair though, because old style siamese ARE siamese cats... OK, Highjack over!

So, I'm assuming that the original poster is speaking of a similar situation???

No thats not what I say. It is unknown how and when Turkish Vans and Turkish Angoras appeared however they are a natural breed, which means their color, body stats and personalities came into being not by people but by nature. Archeologists say they are at least 2800 years old.

Before 2 of those cats were taken to England, all villagers used to have a Van cat and they were white cats with odd eyes, however as the city started to grow (yes Van is a city of Turkey but still a very small and not developed city) domestic cats of other colors started to enter Van and the citizens werent really paying attention to Vans breeding with other domestic cats. Thats why currently its hard to find all white Turkish Van cats in the city Van.

Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt

Oh, in otherwords, a 'natural' breed. There is a breed called 'Thai Cats' that are said to be the original siamese. They come in pointed colors and also as solid white odd-eyed cats and korats.

http://www.andrew-gray.com/thailand/cats.html

http://www.basilisk.co.uk/siamese/index.html
(click on the faces of the cats for the bios)

CFA only recognizes the Korats. While I believe that the modern show style siamese are beautiful and graceful, I do not believe they represent what the original siamese looked like... Thank heaven for this wonderful tool called the internet! I own the Siamese Cat Book by Vera M. Nelson (not an easy book to find, esp the 1956 edition) and the cats pictured and described look nothing like the siamese in the show hall today.

There has been a sucessful push in some coutries to include the old'style siamese as a separate breed (know as Thai Cats). I don't think this is fair though, because old style siamese ARE siamese cats... OK, Highjack over!

So, I'm assuming that the original poster is speaking of a similar situation???

Click to expand...

Well, siamese cats that are sold in Turkey are not slim and elongate like i see in the CFA website. They look like the picture below here.

And you're saying that the original turkish vans don't look like what is being shown in CFA either? You are saying that the van pattern came from some moggie ferals (regular domestics)?

I don't really think I agree with the whole 'natural breed' thing. A turkish van roaming the streets and mating freely with other cats, be they solid white odd-eyed cats or exhibiting the van pattern, are feral moggies. That means that the parentage/lineage of the cat is unknown... nothing more, nothing less.

Where did the 'regular domestic cats' that gave the turkish van its pattern come from? If they were also domestic cats of unknown parentage that originated in the Van area of Turkey, then shouldn't they be called Turkish Vans as well?

All 'purebred' pedigreed cats have a family tree that ends somewhere with a moggie (cat of unknown parentage).

I say Van pattern came from some cats thats appeared due to ferals started to get common in Van because of urbanize of the city and the pure breed Van cats started to breed with the ferals which caused multicolored kittens with Van patterns. As they carried Van genes, they loved water and their showede similar personalities with Vans.

You are right about what you say but gladly 100. Yil University have a breeding programme about the real Turkish Vans which might have also check genetics for the pureness of the breed, I dont have an idea but they have reported there are 400 cats in their programme and they assume there are 80 Turkish Van owners in Turkey which means there are about 450-500 pure Turkish Van cats in Turkey. There are very very few pure Turkish Van cats in their natural habitat, Van, because of ferals and as you said even if they are white and have odd eye colors that wouldnt make them "pure".

An interesting thread to this Turkish-Van-obsessive member, possibly suffering somewhat from some slight mutual language barriers.

One can read in many sources that a cat meeting the CFA standards as a Turkish Van, and a cat known as a Turkish Van in Turkey, are quite different. As I recall, and this is based on an old man's cloudy memory, the distinction generally cited is that the "Turkish" Turkish Van has only the tail in a color contrasting with the white body. I.e., it will not have additional spots of coloration on the head and elsewhere, as do our lovely Samwise and Molly, seen below in the links in our siggy.

In fact, I distinctly recall meeting a charming lady visitor from Turkey at a cat show where Ann and I were showing Samwise. Our very courteous visitor nicely advised us that Samwise was not a "Turkish" Turkish Van due to the marks on his forehead. As you can see in the siggy slide show below, Molly has even more contrasting coloration on her body, yet, like Samwise, she qualified as a CFA Grand Champion.

This interesting history of the "two" Turkish Vans might even have a political element. I understand that in Armenia the breed categorized by the CFA as a Turkish Van is known as the Armenian Van. I have been told that it is the national cat in Armenia. I have a photo of the cat on an Armenian stamp which I will try to attach, but don't hold your breath. I do not succeed at doing this very often.

We Americans may not all be familiar with the fact that the Lake Van area has not always been in Turkey. This area has also been in Armenia. The national border in this area was once described as being a rubber band, and it has had a history of warfare. I do not intend to offend anyone -- I just relate my understanding, and I do not state it with certainty.

Anyway, whatever is a Turkish Van, Ann and I could not love any cat more than we do Samwise and Molly.

All the best,

Jim

Very informative Jim! (as always, I was hoping you would pop in!)

Give Samwise and Molly a few scritches behind the ears for me. Just yesterday I was thinking about Samwise's tail sticking out of the cabinet!

The attachement worked, btw.

I know you are from Turkey; however you are mistaken in the fact that the Turkish Zoo only bred the white cats - they only KEPT the white angoras - but the angoras always had the colors in there - white paints over all colors. Any "color" angoras were quietly destroyed.

White is dominate and masks the colors. The angoras were never crossed with anything after they were taken out of the zoo to the US - it was only after they were bred here, that some colors came out of those same cats from the zoo.

For awhile the colors were just spayed/neutered and petted out - only the whites were shown. However, recently the color angoras are now accepted for showing.

But they really were there all along.

Actually the city Van and the area has been Turks since 1071 and never been Armenians but they lived there with Turks in Ottoman Empire as minority. The calling Turkish Vans Armenian Vans is definately something political; as Armenian people dont really like Turkish people in general, they cant call a cat Turkish Van.

If you do a search as "vankedi" or "vankedisi" which actually means Van Cat in Turkish, you can find some info. Its ofcourse totally fine for a cat which have different physical stats, behaviours and personality to be defined as a different breed and I feel proud about them being called "Turkish Van" cats.

Strange thing is (and the reason why I posted this thread), a "Turkish" Turkish Van is "at least" a natural purebreed cat and different than all other breeds including the Turkish Van in the trade but havent been recognised by American Cat Registries and many others. Does the cat have to be in trade to be recognised?

Check the link below to learn about "Turkish" Turkish Vans. According to link, it looks like they are slowly getting recognised by some car registries.
http://www.vantasia.org/other_turkish_breeds.html#KEDI

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

I know you are from Turkey; however you are mistaken in the fact that the Turkish Zoo only bred the white cats - they only KEPT the white angoras - but the angoras always had the colors in there - white paints over all colors. Any "color" angoras were quietly destroyed.

White is dominate and masks the colors. The angoras were never crossed with anything after they were taken out of the zoo to the US - it was only after they were bred here, that some colors came out of those same cats from the zoo.

For awhile the colors were just spayed/neutered and petted out - only the whites were shown. However, recently the color angoras are now accepted for showing.

But they really were there all along.

Click to expand...

I have no idea about this, it may be true but what I pointed was that Turkish Angoras are almost same in their natural habitat but Turkish Vans are different than "Turkish" Turkish Vans.