A very depressing reality... - Page 2

couldnt have said it better myself

First, we have to look at a few things here. We have only been recording the climate/weather patterns for the past 200 years or so. A minute record of time, when compared to the age of this planet. Are we in the middle of a major climate change or just a short term pattern change? One has to look at a few things that also impact our weather. The sun and it's sun spot cycles and the fact the the earth does not rotate in a perfect pattern. In fact, the earth actually wobbles as it rotates. These irregular patterns of rotation can cause short term weather pattern changes. Some of you may be to young to remember the 70's. The 70's had some of the coldest winters ever recorded!! I live in Ohio near lake Erie. In the 70's, the lake was covered with ice by Christmas and near the end of winter, it had froze all the way across the entire lake. Yes, the lake does freeze, but not to this magnitude all the time. The 70's also saw snow in MIAMI Florida for the first time ever recorded. That is, in human records. I can recall the weather being so cold, that there were natural gas shortages and schools were closed for a week due to the extreme cold weather. The news headlines during this period of time, had warnings that we were headed for another ice age!! Did this happen? One thing about weather and climate is that there is no such thing as "normal". When they say that the "normal" high temperature for this time of year is let's say, 33 degrees, what they really mean is that the average temperature for this period is 33, taken over the last couple hundred years. Yes, there is no doubt that we are in the middle of a climate change, but I feel it is very hard to determine if we humans are the ones responsible or if this is just another short term change in the weather. The climate patterns on this planet are always changing. I saw a special on the discovery channel a few years ago about Egypt and the great pyramids and sphinx. There is evidence that at one time, the land around there was covered with thick tropical plants surrounded with water. Now, it is nothing but desert. What caused this big change? Are we headed back to a time when this area was a tropical land instead of desert? It's hard to say. One theory I had also heard on global warming, is that it may only go so far, before it reverses itself. The theory is that if the earth does warm, so will all it's oceans. Warmer ocean waters would mean more water vapor in the atmosphere. This would lead to an increase in total global cloud cover. This increase in cloud cover would reduce the amount of sunlight coming through. At any one time, the earth is covered by a certain percent of cloud cover. Increase this cloud cover and you will reduce the total amount of sunlight and heat into the earth's atmosphere as well. This will lead to a cooling effect, just as a cloudy rainy day does on a summer day, but only on a global scale. This cooling, of only a couple degrees, would have a huge impact on the weather, just the same as global warming, but in reverse. If the earth cooled, you would see an increase in snow cover at the poles. This increase in snow cover would reflect even more sunlight back out into space, further cooling the planet. Should we reduce the amount of green house gases we are putting into the atmosphere? Yes, I agree. But there is simply not enough information out there to prove that we are the ones responsible for a possible climate change or if it is just a normal part of the earth's every changing climate/weather patterns.

Thank you, John! That's what I was trying to say, but didn't back it up with facts and alternate theories to add credibility.

I don't think that anyone is arguing that there is no warming trend going on with the earth's climate. What is argued is the cause of that trend. Is it a natural cycle that we just haven't seen yet in recorded meterological history? Or is it a complete anomoly? As John said, there isn't enough information to claim that they *know* for sure. "Global warming" that points to humans as the cause is a theory, not fact.

And you know, all it takes in one big volcanic eruption and we'll have snow in July in the northern hemisphere, like what happened in 1815 when Mt. Tambora erupted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer

I almost forgot about this one. Thanks I remember reading this and also a fact that in Cleveland Ohio during this period, the 4th of July fireworks were canceled due to....snow!!

However, we can tell a whole lot about global climate changes from core samples of arctic ice, tree rings (including fossilized trees), glacial records, fossils in general, rock formations... we are only just now learning how to read everything available to us.

But we can tell alot about the climate much more than 200 years ago.

This is all just diversions from fact. Global warming is incontrovertible.

Whether or not global warming is or is not happening, I don't think it will be the big disaster that some say. However, we really have no way to prove this. If it is a natural occuring event, what can we really do? As I have stated before, warmer ocean waters will release more water vapor into the air and this will cause an overall increase in the total average cloud cover. As in 1815, when Mt Tambora erupted, dumping so much ash and dust into the air, as to block out a certain percent of the total sunshine reaching the earth. This caused the "year without a summer". However, since volcanic ash is relatively heavy, it falls back to the earth or gets washed from the atmosphere by rain and snow, so the effects last only 1 or 2 years. However, water vapor is much different and an increase in cloud cover will last much much longer. This increase of cloud cover will not cause another "year without a summer", but it can lead to a cooling of the planet. As with an increase in 1 or 2 degrees of the earth's avergae temperature can have major effects, so can and will, a cooling by 1-2 degrees. What can we do about it? I don't think there is much we can do. Reducing so called "green house gases" may help, but there has been so much put into the atmosphere already, who knows how long it would take the earth to reduce the level. I believe there are other factors. The ever increasing size of our cities have a huge impact as well. They hold the heat for a long period of time. Have you ever been out for a drive on a hot summer night? You will notice if you drive out of the city, the temperatures are much cooler than in the city. All these buildings increase the total area the sun can heat up. This heat is stored in the concrete and steel and released back into the air. In major metropolitan areas, they can even create their own weather patterns. But again, can these things have a major impact on our planet? It is really hard to tell and much research still needs to be done.

well put...

Look back 100 -150years ago( when writing this stuff down came into being...

Leval 5 hurricanes lots of them
killer fires

are we helping .. YEAH but not causeing

See the movie. It's all I have to say. It answers every argument here with statistical data and conclusively shows that humans are the major, predominant cause of this particular episode of climate change.

And to say that we've only been able to measure weather for 200 years is not entirely true. We've only been able to predict weather for that long, but we know a very great deal about climate patterns for hundreds of thousands of years (if we didn't, we wouldn't be able to argue whether or not this pattern is natural or man-made)

Here's a link to an article published in the last couple of days affirming human influence on climate change.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/10/sc...html?th&emc=th

I know we known but try to get a record of the temp prior to a 100 yrs ago ... at least stateside impossible

What's the point in denying it?
Also, why do we need to know exactly how bad it will be, and quantify it, before we do something about it?
That is alot like someone who keeps smoking after both parents die of lung cancer because they just don't know if it will happen or not. Or someone who has already had two heart attacks who keeps eating fried food with every meal. Sure, maybe it won't be as bad as the docs say... but will it harm you to try and prevent it?

Will it harm you to try and live in a way healthier for our planet as well as everyone around you? Now weigh that against the possibility of us all continuing to live the way we do, and causing a total catastrophe, and in the end when it's too late thinking back about what we could have fixed sooner.

To me, it's not worth the risk, especially when there is such good, compelling evidence that is accepted by pretty much all scientists and climatologists worth their salt.

Would you rather risk living in a way that causes a smaller ecological footprint and causes some minor inconvenience to you, or risk causing permanent damage to the environment (or more of it) and making life impossible to future generations in the not distant future?

That's right - not only is there enough proof to show that humans have had a significant impact, there is also enough proof to show that there is a lot we can do to change this.

So, therefore, we may not be able to reverse natural global warming if that is an element in this (and I don't deny that it might be), but we will definitely be able to reverse the man-made global warming that has made the whole situation much more immediate and important, whether it has a natural component or not. That's why it's important to believe the evidence - not because it might be partly natural, but because it IS a whole lot man made, and we have a responsibility to fix what we have done that has accelerated any natural process that might already be occurring.

Again, even if I didn't believe it was remotely man-made, I would still do everything possible to adhere to advice given by specialists in the area, because the alternative is too horrible to contemplate. If even the wildest hypotheses of scientists had a 0.1% potential to become reality, that would be enough for me, believer or not.

did anyone count the number of if in all the posts?
i think everyone here will agree we need to try and clean things up, just cause it needs to be done.

And yep - ain't that the truth (typical how the guy hits the nail on the head while the chicks all argue for pages about it...lol)

The thing with this thread is that I feel like points are being ignored if the post isn't in total agreement.

No one has said that the climate is not changing. Or that the climate is not getting warming.

No one has said that we shouldn't work to clean up the environment.

The argument is about the cause of "global warming". I read through the thread again last night, and I didn't see anyone saying that humans are not contributing to it. Or that we're not damaging the planet. We are. No one is denying that. But what we are saying is that humans are not the sole cause of this climate change, and there is not indisputable proof that we are.

I also want to say this: This is a political issue. Al Gore does have an agenda. Statistics and graphs can be viewed to say whatever it is you want them to say. And if this movie doesn't present the other side, it is biased and a skewed perspective. Maybe that's the facts that you want to hear, but it is not the only set of facts and theories out there.

If one fact is not included in the analysis, the whole thing falls apart.

and if you dont toss in a if, where is the fun?
i think we my disagree on how much man has had a effect, on the warming cycle.
If you ever listen to Art bell or coast to coast at night, which is a fun show to listen to .
They have been talking about global warming for years(in between people being taken by space aliens and i had bigfoot babies) They have had "expects" from both sides.
One think i have learned in my old age, is that the truth often in the middle.
But we all do agree it would be nice, to clean things up

hehe how they have made it a political issue it should not be. It shoudl be a common sense issue. Dont make a waste dump of your home.

Yup, "if" creates job security for all the people doing the analyses. "If" this, "if" that.... If I had freakin' wings, I could fly too!

And yes, everyone does agree we can at least slow down the process by cleaning up our act. It didn't get bad in a year, it will not be fixed in a year. It will take time, maybe more than our lifetimes... but at least we are making a start.

Well, I am not going to see any "one sided" political agenda movie. That does not prove anything. There is no proof, that we humans are or have been causing so called global warming. Yes, we do know that there has been a change in our climate and yes, we do know that these green house gases can cause heat to be trapped in the atmosphere. Our planet was, at one time, much much hotter than it is now and there were no humans, cars or any other man made devise spewing green house gases into the atmosphere. We also had an ice age, that some scientists feel was caused by an asteroid that hit the earth, but this too has not been 100% proven. What caused the earth to be so much warmer well before humans walked the earth? Yes, there was more green house gases in the air, but is this the real cause? The earth was more than likely covered by more vegation as well, which would have helped to absorb the carbon gases from the air. Plants convert these gases to oxygen. It has also been proven, as I have stated before, that the earth does not rotate in a perfect pattern. These irregular rotation patterns can cause the earth to be somewhat closer or further from the sun. Are we in one of these patterns now, where the earth is a little closer to the sun? There is no way to prove this, because we have only been studying space and the sun for a relative short period of time and there is still way to much to learn. As for the weather, I stated that we have only been "recording" the weather for the past 200 years or so.
I never denied anything, just stated that there has been no proof as to the cause, just a theory.
The question is, have you done anything? Has anyone here done anything? I try and always have. I don't drive a big huge gas wasting SUV. I keep my heat in our home turned down very low at all times. The thermostat is set at 64 during the day and 62 at night. I do not use air conditioning in the summer. I use where possible, energy saving light bulbs and I make sure no lights are left on that I do not need. These are some of the things we could all do. We could also try to stop useless development. Plant trees wherever you can. Trees and all plants absorb green house gases. When a new devlopment goes in, if there are trees or wooded areas, the developer should be required to keep them there, instead of clear cutting all the trees for profit. So, these are a few simple things that we can all do. However, whether or not this will help stop or prevent global warming is, as everything else so far, just a theory.

I thought so too before I saw it. I was surprised and gratified at his genuine warmth and care. Al Gore has been studying climate change long before he got into politics, which is interesting in itself. I'm not going to be naive and say there isn't an agenda in the film - of course there is, to help save the planet. Fine by me.

And it does present the other side, absolutely. That's why it's such an important film.

That's a little one-sided, isn't it? Nobody has been able to `prove' anything yet - even your arguments. So, the proof question is a little redundant. I don't know why everyone wants such conclusive proof. There are very, very compelling arguments clearly delineated and based on a great deal of research, and until you have examined both sides you should reserve judgement. I have, therefore I know which side has more compelling evidence to me. Those of who refuse to entertain that humans are the predominant cause of this do not have credibility until you have examined both sides either. Many of you have, many of you haven't.

I find it a little odd that you can decide so much about a film you haven't seen, and decide without seeing it that it's all propaganda. That's the same as me saying, `I really hate Twinkies' - but I've never had one. Could that be because it's presenting the views you don't want to examine? I bet if there was a film out there about natural global warming and how humans haven't contributed to it much, you'd see that. So until you've seen it and compared it with what you already think, I really don't think that you're in a position to comment on it.

And to answer the question `Am I doing anything'. You're darn right I am. I cycle to work most days, we only have one car, we are both vegetarian (mostly for ethical issues - including climate change), we walk or use public transport where possible. We don't tip cooking oil down the sink but dispose of it in an environmentally friendly way, we don't buy lots of iddy bitty tins of cat/dog food, because of it's contribution to landfill - or any other pointless packaging, for that matter. We use our electricity and gas under the eco-guidelines of our providers, we recycle everything possible, we don't use plastic bags at the supermarket...the list goes on.

And most important of all, we educate ourselves every day on what we can do and how we can change more, we research and argue and look into things - so we can be fully informed of both sides, and make our decisions based on the information available. Yes, I'd say we do our bit.

Yes. I have never owned a car in my entire life, and won't until I can afford one and one is available that uses no fossil fuels. If I am not walking, I am riding a bus running on biodiesel. My heat is kept at 65, and the air at 78. I always use real dishes, never paper/plastic. I try to buy recyclable things. I never eat meat, which takes exponentially more energy and pollution than non-meat foods (first we have to use more farmland for feed grains than we do for humans, then we have to feed the livestock, then kill it and eat it-- incredible energy waste).

Am I doing anything? I'm not sure what else I could feasibly do without joining a commune.

Again, you are denying that global warming is more than just a theory, which is the same as denying it. It's not a theory. A theory is something that is unprovable. Global warming is already happening. To find the cause, look in a mirror. (Collectively not you specifically)

There's something I forgot to say...lol...and that is with regard to the manipulation of statistics mentioned earlier, and also the fact that so many people think that this is some kind of political ploy.

Global warming is not a new thing. It's not some 21st Century phenomenon that is on every government's policial agenda. Climate change and its surrounding issues have been the subject of study for many, many years - decades. Again, Al Gore was studying this when he was at university, long before he entered politics - and it was one of the major contributing factors for him to enter politics. It's a shame that his documentary is deliberately not being seen because it's thought to be a political gambit.

But this is not just about him and a movie. My first recollection of this issue is from when I was in high school - nearly 20 years ago - and the destruction of the ozone layer came to the forefront. We knew that was being caused by the release of chlorofluorocarbons into the atmosphere, and there was a huge push to change that. Well, good for us - we DID change it, and the damage to the ozone layer has been significantly reduced and in many cases reversed. The Kyoto Protocol was conceptualised in 1997 - ten years ago, and has been ratified by 169 countries since that time (except, of course, the US and Australia, who between us contribute over 25% of global greenhouse emissions)

People keep asking for proof - well, we actually have proof. Proof born of unfortunate experience. Global warming, the Greenhouse Effect, El Nino, climate change - these are things that have been the subject of intensive study since the middle of the last century - and the reason it's so thoroughly in the zeitgeist now is not political maneouvering, it's because so many of the things forecast by those studies have actually happened - only faster than was originally thought. That speaks volumes to me of the human influence on this problem. Things that were postulated have actually happened. Human things, caused by humans - you can't say these things are conjecture - they might have been 50 years ago but the fact that things have played out exactly like it was expected (well, not exactly - it's happened faster) is incontrovertible proof. I don't want another 50 years to go by before we all go, `D'oh! They TOLD us this would happen, but we thought it was all natural'.

Basically, I cannot confirm nor deny that there is a natural, global element to this. The only thing I know is that natural climate change that results in global warming/cooling resulting in such things as ice ages and so forth, naturally occurs over hundreds and thousands of years. What we have has been unnaturally occurring over a few decades. Again, that is retrospective proof of our involvement. It can't be argued against. We might not be the primary cause, but seriously, who cares? We also might be - and the fact that we ARE the primary contributor is the issue here.

My last point is that many politicians and government adminstrations did everything they possibly could to cover this up for a long time. Censorship was rife in the White House in particular over this problem - documentation from experts in the field and leading scientists was not just modified, but downright changed, to cover this up. Now there has been such a turnaround - the president of America has come out and acknowledged the problem after years of trying to hide it - and he's not the only one. If you want to talk about manipulating statistics to suit an agenda, you need to talk about the people on both sides who have done it. Al Gore is presenting the results of over 30 years of study - his own but mostly many others. He didn't just make that stuff up for Brownie points. Sure, its presented in a compelling way, but if he outright lied about it, he'd be caught, the same way that the current US administration has been caught.

Politicians around the world have done their best to try NOT to make this a political issue - and it's become one because it's too urgent to ignore, and the leaders of our countries are the ones in the best position to do anything (on a global scale) about it.

50 years ago climate change issues were a blip on the radar of global consciousness. But the awareness was there, in small circles, and that awareness has become an urgent world-sized issue that is on the forefront of all agendas - not just political.

I found this article about Exxon cutting ties with global warming skeptics to be a hopeful sign of a changing global attitude.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16593606/

I just have no doubt in my mind that we as humans are hastening the destruction of Mother Earth. The thing is that it won't happen in my lifetime or my childrens so it is sometimes hard to focus on something in the future when I try live my daily life. I also do little things like recycling, mass transit to work instead of drive, do not use paper plates, carry my own bags grocery shopping so I don't use plastic. But it will take all of us or we leave a sorry legacy to generations to come.

I love the land and nature and wish we could coexist better. But if the human population keeps expanding something is going have to happen. I can't help but think of the scene in the movie Matrix, when the computer dude has Lawrence Fishbourn tied up and he tells him that humans are like a virus. It is the only species besides a virus that will reproduce past what the land will accomodate. How many more people can the earth accomodate?

I hate to hear about another family farm being lost to progress, a rainforest being wiped out for paper goods or a species becoming extinct due to loss of habitat. I wish I did more to protect our enviroment.

Tricia

Just want to applaud you guys--Sarah, Zissou's mom and Tricia-
(Sorry if I missed anyone, but I just read the last page) for "doing something about it"
I really don't understand the huge controversy here. It should not be a political issue. All parties should realize that cutting down on pollution is not a bad thing. And who gets hurt when we recycle???

I just have to ask - quite a few of you have said `I do not use paper plates'. Does that mean that this is quite a common thing? That's so odd to me! Is it because people are so lazy that they can't do the dishes? I have never once in my life considered eating off paper plates unless I am at a barbeque or something - and neither has anyone I know ever. The first time I ever heard of it was when I saw the movie Little Miss Sunshine and I thought it was just part of a movie until I saw it here...

There are people here who don't even own dishes. Probably mainly people my age... and an even greater number of people, my household growing up included, only used real plates for dinner. Paper plates were for lunch and breakfast if you weren't eating cereal.

Huh. Is that right? Wow, then I guess that could be a huge contributing problem to landfill in particular.

I think things like the amount of stuff we actually go through and waste are things that haven't been focused on enough before now. When Max and I really started paying attention, we were so shocked at how much waste we produce.

For me it is not just landfills for paper plates and all paper products that aren't recyled but the natural resources, especially trees that need to be used to produce these products. At my work I am trying to go to a paperless storage system to replace all the paper we use to document our work. Growing up alot of my friends used styrofoam plates which are just hideous for the enviroment. They never break down. It is just easier to throw the plate away than clean it.

I was lucky to grow up on a small farm where we used and recycled just about everything. Food remanents were fed to the chickens or composted for the garden. Old clothes were cut up into rags. Everything was used until it could be used no more. I read Hint from Heliose religously. Even today living in the suburbs I still compost and reuse as much as I can. I am not perfect I just try and do as much as I can. Farm life gave me an appreciation for the balance of nature. We were not farmers per se, my parents worked in government or corporate jobs but we all love the land and animals.

But I am encourage by Exxon participating in industry talks about possible greenhouse emmissions regulation and is in the process of clarifying its position on greenhouse emmission. I applaud them for cutting thier ties with think tanks that downplay greenhouse emission. I posted the link in an earlier post to the newsreport. I will wait to see what comes out of it though. But if Exxon is taking notice of climate changes maybe we all should too. And a big company like Exxon could do more than I ever could. But we all have to start somewhere.


Tricia

Actually no, I never denied that global warming is at hand. I stated that the idea that we humans are the cause, is just a theory. I have seen other theories on the subject as well, some of which I pointed out. i.e. The irregular rotating patterns of the earth. This too, is another theory. I have always been environmentally friendly/conscious and will continue to do so. I have been this way since I was a kid

that

Global warming is caused by humans. Denying that is denying global warming.