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Door to door christians! - Page 4

post #91 of 168
12/15/06 at 10:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt View Post
There are several references to 'sons of god' in the bible and Jesus even says that his deciples are the same (can't remember the verse right now, maybe I'll check later). More often though, he says he is the 'son of man'.

Plus, all the hebrews are equally gods children and therefore sons (and daughers) of their god.

Jesus never says that he is divine nor does he ever say that he is gods equal. In fact, most of the quotes attributed to him in the bible strongly imply that he feels inferior to his father in heaven.
Hence: Lots of contradiction!

It is true: If Jesus were alive today, running around proclaiming the things it is written that he said, he'd be locked up and heavily medicated!
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post #92 of 168
12/15/06 at 10:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingersMom View Post
Hence: Lots of contradiction!

It is true: If Jesus were alive today, running around proclaiming the things it is written that he said, he'd be locked up and heavily medicated!
LOL! Thats funny and sad at the same time! While I don't believe that Jesus was divine, and I'm still on the fence as to whether he actually existed or not, I think his message was a good one. If only more christians focused on his message rather than his death...
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post #93 of 168
12/15/06 at 10:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by laureen227 View Post
i have never have understood this viewpoint. basically, He said He was the Son of God. if He wasn't, then He was crazy
By this same token, though, I can say I'm a turnip. Either I'm a turnip because I say I'm a turnip, or I'm crazy because I say I'm a turnip.

I'm totally not trying to pick on you, Laureen, so please don't get me wrong. I'm an atheist, and I simply do not understand the religious point of view (any religious point of view, really). I don't understand what it's like to be able to believe what you believe, and I poke and prod because I want to understand.

As for those of you who think the Mormons et al have wacky beliefs, have you ever stopped to consider the beliefs of other religions? The world was created on the back of a turtle. Athena sprang forth from her father's head. At one time races of giants and little people roamed the earth. We're actually hosts for alien beings who had fled some evil overlord. Marrying your sister preserves your divine bloodline. A child who was born of a virgin woman died and then came back to life, and when we eat crackers and drink wine (after some magical hocus-pocus is done to it), we're eating his flesh and drinking his blood. Seriously, if I wrote this stuff and submitted it to a publisher, it'd be returned to me for being too unbelievable (unless my name was Ron Hubbard). I can only conclude from this that humans are exceptionally creative creatures, and that faith is an incredibly strong substance.
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post #94 of 168
12/15/06 at 10:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KittenKiya View Post
By the way, Luke traces Mary's lineage and Matthew traces Joseph's l ineage.
True, but there is a healthy arguement to be made that St. Luke made up the census as a sort of plot hook.
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post #95 of 168
12/15/06 at 10:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
It wasn't magic stones, it was golden plates that the Book of Mormon was written on.
Smith claimed he was given two magic stones to translate the plates into English, and Moroni took them back after he was finished.
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post #96 of 168
12/15/06 at 10:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by laureen227 View Post
i have never have understood this viewpoint. basically, He said He was the Son of God. if He wasn't, then He was crazy.
you won't find me there, trust me!
Ah yes, the "trilemma" - Jesus said he was the Son of God - either he was, or he was lying, or he was delusional.

The trilemma is usually resolved by assuming that (in short) the good parts of Christain (taken as a philosophy) could not have come from a liar (for obvious reasons) or a crazy person.

Personally, I think that's an unwarrented priveledging of sanity over insanity. I don't think you have to have perfect mental health to share inspiring thoughts into the human condition, or life, the universe, and everything.
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post #97 of 168
12/15/06 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satai View Post
True, but there is a healthy arguement to be made that St. Luke made up the census as a sort of plot hook.
So what else did Luke make up?
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post #98 of 168
12/15/06 at 11:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt View Post
So what else did Luke make up?
Couldn't say - the argument that he invented the census is based on the fact that (apparently) no historical evidence has been turned up to support the supposition that the census occurred. The chances of an event of the size described (and which, by it's nature, was recorded) just disappearing are vanishingly small.

That's why the census, particularly, stands out as a probable creation of the author.

It's not a bad one, either, if it is - it creates a plausable premise for why a family from Nazareth would be Bethleham (where, according to prophecy, the saviour was to be born).
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post #99 of 168
12/15/06 at 11:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirinae View Post
By this same token, though, I can say I'm a turnip. Either I'm a turnip because I say I'm a turnip, or I'm crazy because I say I'm a turnip.

I'm totally not trying to pick on you, Laureen, so please don't get me wrong. I'm an atheist, and I simply do not understand the religious point of view (any religious point of view, really). I don't understand what it's like to be able to believe what you believe, and I poke and prod because I want to understand.

As for those of you who think the Mormons et al have wacky beliefs, have you ever stopped to consider the beliefs of other religions? The world was created on the back of a turtle. Athena sprang forth from her father's head. At one time races of giants and little people roamed the earth. We're actually hosts for alien beings who had fled some evil overlord. Marrying your sister preserves your divine bloodline. A child who was born of a virgin woman died and then came back to life, and when we eat crackers and drink wine (after some magical hocus-pocus is done to it), we're eating his flesh and drinking his blood. Seriously, if I wrote this stuff and submitted it to a publisher, it'd be returned to me for being too unbelievable (unless my name was Ron Hubbard). I can only conclude from this that humans are exceptionally creative creatures, and that faith is an incredibly strong substance.
my mother has an interesting viewpoint of the differences/similarities in religions. she says that she is more prone to believe in the Judeo-Christian religion because it is the only one where man is completely unable to 'earn' his way into heaven. all of the others [unless i'm forgetting about one] are works-based - if you just live right/do right/etc. you'll be rewarded. Judaism states only God can forgive your sins - atonement is required, not works. Christianity is similar - God forgives, entry into heaven is based on belief, not acts.
& i don't think you're picking on me! btw, i agree with your turnip analogy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt View Post
There are several references to 'sons of god' in the bible and Jesus even says that his deciples are the same (can't remember the verse right now, maybe I'll check later). More often though, he says he is the 'son of man'.

Plus, all the hebrews are equally gods children and therefore sons (and daughers) of their god.

Jesus never says that he is divine nor does he ever say that he is gods equal. In fact, most of the quotes attributed to him in the bible strongly imply that he feels inferior to his father in heaven.
actually, He may not actually say it, but he does state that it is true - assuming you believe the Bible is true, of course. here is the main reference: Luke 22:66 At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. [67]"If you are the Christ," they said, "tell us." Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me, [68] and if I asked you, you would not answer. [69]But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."
[70]They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"
He replied, "You are right in saying I am."
[71]Then they said, "Why do we need any more testimony? We have heard it from his own lips."
now, if you say to me, "you are a woman" & i say "you are right" wouldn't you say i had said i was a woman?
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post #100 of 168
12/15/06 at 11:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by laureen227 View Post
my mother has an interesting viewpoint of the differences/similarities in religions. she says that she is more prone to believe in the Judeo-Christian religion because it is the only one where man is completely unable to 'earn' his way into heaven. all of the others [unless i'm forgetting about one] are works-based - if you just live right/do right/etc. you'll be rewarded. Judaism states only God can forgive your sins - atonement is required, not works. Christianity is similar - God forgives, entry into heaven is based on belief, not acts.
& i don't think you're picking on me! btw, i agree with your turnip analogy.
actually, He may not actually say it, but he does state that it is true - assuming you believe the Bible is true, of course. here is the main reference: Luke 22:66 At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. [67]"If you are the Christ," they said, "tell us." Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me, [68] and if I asked you, you would not answer. [69]But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."
[70]They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"
He replied, "You are right in saying I am."
[71]Then they said, "Why do we need any more testimony? We have heard it from his own lips."
now, if you say to me, "you are a woman" & i say "you are right" wouldn't you say i had said i was a woman?

I didn't say he never said he was the son of god, I said he also said that his deciples were the same and also seated at the right hand. Something about 'as I am, so are you', though thats not a direct quote.

What I'm saying is that he never claimed to be equal to god. Seated at the right hand is far from being equals. He also never claimed to be divine. Thats all I'm saying.

I know the first part of your post wasn't directed at me, but here's my 2 cents. The faith vs. works thing is one of the major contradictions in the bible. In one area, it says by faith alone. In another, it say faith alone won't cut it.

The 600 or so commandments given to the hebrews (many of which were borrowed from surrounding cultures like egypt) cannot be broken. If they are, a man has sinned and the wages of sin are death (or however that goes).

Besides that, the reality is that the way judeo-christian religions are often practiced is very much based on works. I grew up catholic, so you can't convince me otherwise. Ever hear of 'catholic guilt'???

BTW, I want to thank everyone for allowing me and everyone else to talk about this in a civilized manner. This topic is often 'flame-bait' and I very much respect you all for being understanding of each others (and especially my) view points!
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post #101 of 168
12/15/06 at 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt View Post
BTW, I want to thank everyone for allowing me and everyone else to talk about this in a civilized manner. This topic is often 'flame-bait' and I very much respect you all for being understanding of each others (and especially my) view points!

I agree - I expected flames in this thread, but it has been an interesting back and forth!

I think the reason for the lack of flames is that no one here is trying to say that THEIR religion is the right one, and that there is a lot of mutual respect for differences of beliefs and opinions.

Rock ON, TCSers!
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post #102 of 168
12/15/06 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingersMom View Post

I agree - I expected flames in this thread, but it has been an interesting back and forth!

I think the reason for the lack of flames is that no one here is trying to say that THEIR religion is the right one, and that there is a lot of mutual respect for differences of beliefs and opinions.

Rock ON, TCSers!
actually, i do think mine is the right one... if i didn't, i'd believe differently... but i also think [& the Bible states] that we all have the right to make our own choices. like i said previously - screaming [or flaming] at people that they are wrong is not the way to win people to your point of view. i prefer to let my life be my witness. must be working - i've had many people ask me what's different about me, when i was working in decidedly non-Christian environments.
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post #103 of 168
12/15/06 at 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by laureen227 View Post
actually, i do think mine is the right one... if i didn't, i'd believe differently... but i also think [& the Bible states] that we all have the right to make our own choices. like i said previously - screaming [or flaming] at people that they are wrong is not the way to win people to your point of view. i prefer to let my life be my witness. must be working - i've had many people ask me what's different about me, when i was working in decidedly non-Christian environments.
Excuse me, let me clarify what I said:

I think the reason for the lack of flames is that no one here is trying to say that THEIR religion is the right one FOR EVERYONE, and that there is a lot of mutual respect for differences of beliefs and opinions.

I did not mean to imply that your chosen religion, or anyone else's, is wrong or incorrect.
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post #104 of 168
12/15/06 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satai View Post
Couldn't say - the argument that he invented the census is based on the fact that (apparently) no historical evidence has been turned up to support the supposition that the census occurred. The chances of an event of the size described (and which, by it's nature, was recorded) just disappearing are vanishingly small.

That's why the census, particularly, stands out as a probable creation of the author.

It's not a bad one, either, if it is - it creates a plausable premise for why a family from Nazareth would be Bethleham (where, according to prophecy, the saviour was to be born).
EXACTLY, which is why it's interesting that in John's gospel he points out how interesting it was that Jesus was NOT born according to prophecy, while Luke, who traditionally worked to fulfill the prophecies of the old testament, uses shoddy historical references to make those prophecies come true. The Bible was, after all, written by PEOPLE. And as we know, people are perfectly capable and even known to screw up or make things up for their own benefit or for continuity or for a number of different reasons. This is why literal-Bible belief really gets me.

As for Jesus...yeah, he probably existed, or some Jewish scholar or cleric like him. But Jesus would have been a) an extreme historical anomaly in his time (unmarried Jewish man) and b) across the ages would have been locked up in a mental institution or prison of some sort. There's absolutely overwhelming evidence that the Bible is..well...simply not factual. But hey, I love literature and can learn a lot about life through the study of various archtypes and the veiled experiences of authors and their characters, so I don't see why someone couldn't critcally analyze the Bible in the same way. The trouble is that no one does it critically. As an atheist, I agree with Jesus on a lot of things (namely universal accceptance of people despite ANY defining characteristics, peace and non-violence, helping those who have no voice, etc) but I just don't believe in the supernatural. In a weird way, it reminds of of Gandhi's quote "I like your christ, I do not like your christians. Your christ is so unlike your christians"
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post #105 of 168
12/15/06 at 1:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarryEyedTiGeR View Post
There is a HUGE differnce between the two religions. Mormons are not Christians, nor do they believe the same things that Christianity teaches.

They also believe that Jesus Christ is Satans Brother. The Mormons believe: The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God--Lucifer. This spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind" (Milton R. Hunter, First Council of Seventy, The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15).

The Bible states that

5. The real Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. He is God's son (John 1:1-14). Satan was a created angel--not a son of God (Isaiah 14:12). Jesus created all things, and in Him the fullness of God dwells! (see Colosians 1:15-20; Philippians 2:5-11; Hebrews 1:1-13).

(i'm quoting that not to push anyone in eithor direction- but just to show that there is a HUGE difference between the two religions and that Mormonism is NOT Christianity.


They also believe that Black people are fallen angels- The black race is a cursed people. "Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness, he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with a black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fullness of the blessings of the Gospel" (Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 102). (Although it became expedient for the Mormon church to open the Priesthood to blacks in 1978, the alleged revelation did not change Mormon doctrine regarding the penalty of being black. This revelation also directly contradicted established Mormon doctrine.)

The Bible teaches that the color of a person's skin has no merit with God: "For there is no respect of persons with God" (Romans 2:11); and "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but to have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, father" (Romans 8:15). That includes all of us here on earth--black, white, red, or yellow, king or slave. All of us are made in God's image.

They also belive that the most worthy Mormons become Gods and each get their own planet to rule and live and populate with their family- that is absolutely nowhere in the bible or in Christianity.


They also believe that Native Americans and White people are "superior"

They also believe in a doctrine created by a known liar who was well known for his tall tales.

They also believe that its members do certain things (i.e., missions, give lots of money) to become "more worthy?"


They also believe in a heaven in which women are forever destined to be eternally pregnant?

They also attribute all Bible discrepancies and even recent changes in Mormon beliefs to be the result of mistranslation, yet refuse to believe the Book of Mormon has been mistranslated! Even though there are several different versions...

They claim the Bible and the Book of Mormon to be God's word, but primarily rely on the works of men, such as the Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price for their primary worship.


Mormons are not Christians. They are Mormons. It was Joseph Smith- their founder who who first attacked the Christian doctrines: "for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight (Joseph Smith History 1:19)."


(I say this not to criticize anyone of eithor religion - but just to show from their own doctrine that true mormons do not believe the same things as Christians do, nor is their religion Christianity.)

I don't agree with much of the teachings of the Mormons that aren't in the Bible.
But I will say this. We all are good AND evil. Yin and yang, so to speak.

I believe and will always believe that if you believe in Jesus as your Savior
and believe that the only way to salvation is through Jesus you ARE a Christian. The Mormons believe both of these things.
Just because You say they aren't Christians, doesn't make it so. That is your opinion and mine happens to be different.
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post #106 of 168
12/15/06 at 1:40pm
I'm a non-christian turnip. Just kidding. I'm not really a turnip.

Have a great weekend, all - and if you DO pray, please say one for all the TCS members, family members and kitties who are ill and infirm. I've got a whole bunch of folks and furfolks in my thoughts as I head off for the weekend...
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post #107 of 168
12/15/06 at 1:40pm
I agree with you on the literature aspect. The bible is an amazing piece of literature, but I read it in the same vein as I would The Merchant of Venice or The Goblet of Fire. There are lessons to be had in all of these works of art.

I especially like to read the bible to get a better understanding of society at that time. Its a part of history. I love greek, egyptian and sumerian theology/philosophy as well. The supernatural aspects are just fantasy to me, and while entertaining, I wouldn't take any of it seriously. I believe the bible should be read solely in a metaphorical sense. Though its a part of history, its not very 'historical'.
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post #108 of 168
12/15/06 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionessrampant View Post
Actually, and this is a timely example, if you cracked open your Bible and read Matthew's gospel on the birth of Jesus and Luke's, they directly contradict one another- no PhD necessary to see that. If you read it, Matthew, for instance, dates Joseph's descent from King David via 28 generations, while Luke from 41....a significant discrepancy in dates, resulting in a difference of literally hundreds of years, meaning the census that was allegedly declared would have taken place in 6 AD, or a while after Herod was actually dead. Also, such attention is paid by Luke to fulfill the prophecies in Micah (Micah 5:2 to be exact- I would expect that any good bible thumping christian would be well-acquainted with that particular verse) that they send him to Bethlehem (again, after Herod died, but still, roughly a thousand of years after David was around- WHY on earth would a ruler send you to where a distant ancestor was from?!) while John's gospel mentions that Jesus's followers were surprised that he was born in Galilee rather than Bethlehem.

And it's all there. If you just read your gospels- and I don't even believe in anything super-natural and this would include a god of any sort and any off-shoots of that god. Except for maybe the Flying Spaghetti Monster Now THERE would be some door to door people I'd sit down for coffee with! And yes, i realize that if there's a hell, then there's a special section of it roped off for me. I prefer to believe (and find comfort in) that this whole life is not simply a test.

I take offense at the insults in this post.
Yes, let's compare Christians to "Flying Spaghetti Monsters" and all have a good laugh. Yes, there must be something wrong with us "Bible thumpers"
Wow
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post #109 of 168
12/15/06 at 1:42pm
FLAME ALERT!
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post #110 of 168
12/15/06 at 1:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I take offense at the insults in this post.
Yes, let's compare Christians to "Flying Spaghetti Monsters" and all have a good laugh. Yes, there must be something wrong with us "Bible thumpers"
Wow
What do you find insulting about it? And why not compare christians to the FSM? Thats why the FSM is there, for comparison. Its satire to get people to think about their beliefs. Why can't christianity be questions and picked apart and scrutinized? If it holds up after the skeptics are done with it, then theres nothing to worry about, right? Faith is an important thing, right? You wouldn't go into major life altering surgery without asking as many questions as possible first. Why would you commit your entire life (and afterlife for some) to anything without first seriously questioning its validity/credibility/integrity/fallacies/etc.?
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post #111 of 168
12/15/06 at 2:51pm
I was raised Christian. My mother worked in the church. I went to a Christian college, which is where my faith actually started crumbling - when I was learning more about theology and doctrine and actually read the Bible cover to cover. When I was employed at a Christian high school and was let go/left after it was made very clear that they didn't want to graduate thinking adults, but mindless sheep who could recite their verbage.

Things to consider when thinking of the Bible:

First, it was written by men. No one disputes this, and everyone will admit that men (humans, regardless of gender) are not perfect.

Second, the books of the Bible were hand picked by a committee. OK, Council. But, the basics of the committee were that they chose books, out of hundreds that were being used as the basis of Christianity at the time, that conformed to their beliefs and how they wanted to set up the Church. Hence, any mention of Mary of Magdeline being one of Christ's disciples were thown out, as women were not supposed to be equal to men. The Book of James almost didn't make the cut and is still known in come theological circles as "The Straw Epistle" as it focusses more on Works than on Faith. There are probably many more "biblical" texts that we will never see again because this committee didn't like what they said.

Third, the Bible is interpreted by men. Think about the changes that have happened in the Catholic Church alone - at one point they said it was OK to enslave dark skinned people because of the story of Noah and the son of Noah who raped him. How many other atrocities throughout the ages were committed and justified by the Bible? OK, so now we know better...but do we? There are still humans interpreting it. Who's to say that in 50 or 100 years they will look back at the persecution of the homosexuals and scoff at how the Bible was interpreted? Those who kept slaves, burned "witches" at the stake, tortured heretics, and converted with the sword all believed in their hearts that they were doing the work of God as instructed by the Bible.

As for the people who are hell-bent (pun intended) on converting me? Telling me that I'm going to a place I don't believe in isn't going to change my mind. Berating me for not believing the same as you, isn't going to change my mind. Laureen is right - live your faith and you will find more people who are ready to listen to your message. I don't care what your faith is, but if it really is the Way the Truth and the Light, it will show and people will be drawn to it and you. And always remember - there is no one on earth who believes that whatever faith they have is the wrong one.
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post #112 of 168
12/15/06 at 5:07pm
A "true" Christian doesn't go forcing himself or the Gospel on others. They patiently wait for an opportunity to bring up the subject and then if you are receptive, they will talk more about it with you.

IMO the Jeh. Wit. are NOT Christians - I don't approve of what they do. DH and I are evengelical Christians.
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post #113 of 168
12/15/06 at 5:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I take offense at the insults in this post.
Yes, let's compare Christians to "Flying Spaghetti Monsters" and all have a good laugh. Yes, there must be something wrong with us "Bible thumpers"
Wow
WHy is that offensive. You believe, as a Christian, in the virgin birth, among other things. If the divine could present itself as a bruning bush how come it couldn't present as a flying spaghetti monster? Why is the FSM more strange than believing in a man borne of a virgin who could walk on water, raise the dead and had a mother who did not die, but rather got beamed up into heaven? Are you aware that several religions in Africa and Asia believe in things like witches and fairies still? Do they also offend you? Are you aware that your beliefs do, in fact, offend others as well?

Also, since you're a person of faith, you're relying on something other than fact and reason to sustain your belief. it's not something you could prove using any modern method, scientific or other. So how can you disprove and laugh off the Flying Spaghetti monster?
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post #114 of 168
12/15/06 at 5:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv View Post
I take offense at the insults in this post.
Yes, let's compare Christians to "Flying Spaghetti Monsters" and all have a good laugh. Yes, there must be something wrong with us "Bible thumpers"
Wow
Do you know what the Flying Spaghetti Monster is? (Honest question, not being snotty). Nobody was comparing Christians to one... It's a philosophical tool used to get people to examine their own faith. Not necessarily to say anyone is wrong, or offend them. If you never ever question anything about your faith, and take whatever other people tell you as gospel truth, it is as absurd as believing in a Flying Spaghetti Monster. That's the point... not bashing anyone's faith.

As for not trusting the opinions of people with PhD's... you don't have to trust their opinions, certainly. Their opinion isn't any more valid, necessarily, than anyone elses. I'm just confused as to how their being educated and passionate about the Bible makes them bad somehow...Plus the idea that there are contradictions in the bible is not in any way controversial, at least not to me, nor was it in the church I grew up in.
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post #115 of 168
12/15/06 at 5:56pm
I just spent a fair amount of time typing out this long, meandering post..then deleted all of it. I decided that I really don't need to bore anyone with my past or personal issues, but I'll just say that, a great deal of my early years were influenced by religion and how it effected my family, and then encountering (colliding with) religion in all it's guises around the world, and spent many years not really liking who I was because of it. And now....I just don't worry about it at all. I just thought that as this thread was being really civil, I'd throw in my two cents, but it turned into 19 cents really quickly

Edit: Oh, and the door to door thing (forgot why I was here). I will occassionally get a mailing from a church in a town near hear inviting me, but I have NEVER had anyone come to the door , and have seen very, very VERY few of them at the malls and such.
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post #116 of 168
12/15/06 at 6:42pm
Wow...this thread grew fast!

Anyways,
My father is a penecostal minister. I don't get the door-to-doors here. It IS fun however when my dad gets them. They usually leave crying and doubting everything they know about being JWs.

What we do have alot more around here are Scientologists.... Don't get me started on them!
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post #117 of 168
12/15/06 at 7:11pm
No one ever forced religion on me. No one ever told me I HAD to believe.
I was rasised in a good, Christian home and for that I was blessed and will be forever grateful.

I don't believe it is right to try to force spirtual beliefs on anyone.

But I also don't see anything wrong with being open about my faith.
I don't think it is something that I have to keep to myself as another posted suggested.

I know that Jesus is the Savior of the World and I do wish everyone felt the same but that is not likely to happen and it sure won't happen by force.

I take the Bible as literal truth, including contradictions. I believe the Bible was divinely inspired. But that is not the prerequisite to salvation.

I believe what is in my heart, that Jesus died and came back from the dead to save us from our sins. There is not one iota of doubt about that for me.
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post #118 of 168
12/15/06 at 8:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lunasmom View Post
Oh dear Lord!!!

I haven't had to deal with any door-to-door christians since I moved from my parents house (10 years ago). I think the last one I told that I believe that I'm already in h-e-double hockey sticks. When he asked why, I responded "I answered the door and you were there"
Then I shut the door and walked away.

IMO, NO ONE can tell you whether or not you're going to H-E Double Hockey sticks except for God himself.
When I read that, I nearly spit water all over my computer screen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt View Post
Starry Eyed, Have you ever heard of the "No True Scottsman" argument? Its a logical fallacy and thats exactly what you're giving. There is no one true christian, nor is there one true christian doctrine. Just a bunch of people who tend to agree on what they THINK Jesus would have wanted. You're in no position to determine or decide who is or is not a christian. You can give your opinion, but don't try passing it off as fact.

I've studied mormonism and I've talked to several mormons. Most of the things you've listed are from skeptics and christians who are out to prove that mormons are a 'crazy cult'. A mormon could explain away all of those things just as easily as you could attempt to explain away the fact that the creation story of Genesis is directly borrowed from ancient Sumerian theology, begining with the Enuma Elish.

Or how about how the popes in history endorsed the inquisitions and slavery?

ALL religions have their ugly sides and many many people misunderstand them. ESPECIALLY when they're on the outside looking in.



I suggest before you just accept what anyone here is saying is a fact of any religion, you do some research yourself. If you aren't interested in mormonism, thats great, but DON'T take any of what StarryEyedTiger has said as fact or truth until you have done your own homework.

WHere I live we get a lot of Mormons and JW. They all assume I'm not saved. I have my own religious beliefs thank you and I feel that I am not respected when these people feel it is their duty to tell me that I am wrong and going to go to hell.

My best friend gets people at their door 2 times and week and this girl goes to church every sunday....These people will not give up....I think that is crossing the line. I think she should take out a restraining order!

I personally have a great distain for most organized religion because the people ruin it for me. No human can be perfect, so they blemish peoples outlook on those religions and that is evident in this thread. I know for me, I could NEVER be Catholic because of what the catholic did to Native people in the residential schools in the name of God. That does not mean, however, that I don't have a personal relationship with God. It just means I don't let some inperfect human (besides me hehe) dictate how and what I should believe and do.


On another note,

Isn't all organized religion by definition considered cults? A man I go to school with is a paster and he even said that all religion is a cult by definition.

Oh and I've also read much of the same information regarding Mormons and I would take that as mostly fact, because that IS what Mormons believe, whether anyone think it is weird or not.

I personally don't consider Mormons to be christians either because in revelations it makes reference that if any thing is added or taken away from the bible, then it is false (at least that's where I think it is...it's been a while so excuse me lol).
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post #119 of 168
12/15/06 at 9:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IloveSiamese View Post
WHere I live we get a lot of Mormons and JW. They all assume I'm not saved. I have my own religious beliefs thank you and I feel that I am not respected when these people feel it is their duty to tell me that I am wrong and going to go to hell.

My best friend gets people at their door 2 times and week and this girl goes to church every sunday....These people will not give up....I think that is crossing the line. I think she should take out a restraining order!

I personally have a great distain for most organized religion because the people ruin it for me. No human can be perfect, so they blemish peoples outlook on those religions and that is evident in this thread. I know for me, I could NEVER be Catholic because of what the catholic did to Native people in the residential schools in the name of God. That does not mean, however, that I don't have a personal relationship with God. It just means I don't let some inperfect human (besides me hehe) dictate how and what I should believe and do.
I couldn't agree with you more.



Quote:
On another note,

Isn't all organized religion by definition considered cults? A man I go to school with is a paster and he even said that all religion is a cult by definition.

Oh and I've also read much of the same information regarding Mormons and I would take that as mostly fact, because that IS what Mormons believe, whether anyone think it is weird or not.

I personally don't consider Mormons to be christians either because in revelations it makes reference that if any thing is added or taken away from the bible, then it is false (at least that's where I think it is...it's been a while so excuse me lol
I'm glad you've studied. I respect that very much. I agree, all religions are technically cults by definition. But not all mormons believe the things that were listed. I know black and brown people who are mormons and I've asked them about this. They say that it is being misinterpreted by their detractors and that a lot of that stuff was written in the past when it was more acceptable.

As for adding stuff, there were additions and subtractions LONG after Revelations was actually written.
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post #120 of 168
12/15/06 at 9:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IloveSiamese View Post
When I read that, I nearly spit water all over my computer screen!
You should have seen me in college. I was brought up Catholic, but for personal reasons have not attended the church in many, many years.

However in college I had a roommate that was raised Baptist and graduated from a Free Methodist High school. The instant she found out I was raised Catholic (never questioning if I was still part of the faith or not), she began to attack me, telling me that I was going to live with Satan and that "My" bible was wrong, etc. Of course her being a roommate, this really bothered me and I didn't want to have this discussion with her as it was offensive.

Finally after a few months of her weekly lectures to me, I came up with the best way to shut her up. Basically I explained to her that Catholicism was here first: before the Lutherans, before the Baptists, before the protestents, etc. Then I carefully explained that without catholicism, her religion WOULD NOT EXIST because she would not have a Bible that needed "correcting" as she termed had termed it.
I then questioned "Did your religion not teach you to love and respect others?" Of course she responded "Yes".
So I responded "Then why can you not respect the Catholic faith? Without the original establishment of the Catholic church you would not have your Baptist faith, and yet you still seem to want to judge it."

Needless to say we never spoke again of religion and finished the rest of the year as roommates.
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