Shelter's being picky about adoptions? - Page 3

How exactly?

I don't get it, and I don't want this to be taken personally, although I know this is a very, very emotional issue for all of us.

I literally break my back for homeless animals. I do constant outreach and have placed HUNDREDS of cats into their FOREVER homes. I give talks on proper nutrition and healthcare. I do behavior consultations and have saved some human-animal relationships that would have ended in a shelter dump otherwise. I schedule free and low-cost s/n, and I go out and find the people rather than waiting for them to come to me. I stock and donate to and help with our pet-food pantry which ensures that people who have lost their jobs or have ended up on public aid can afford to keep their pets.

How in the world does my belief that bringing cats into a world that has too many cats AND THEN treating them like our playthings, like we are ultimately superior do ANY harm or make any of the above things worth less to the world? I am willing to bet that while you and i would both agree the BYBers and "accidentals" who aren't willing to spay-abort are the crux of the problem...I'm still willing to bet that if you went through JUST the back of Cat Fancy and added up all the litters from all the breeders who advertise there and all the homes those cats occupy, you'd get a BIG number of cats that coudld have been taken off the streets or adopted from a shelter.

Now, I've said it like 5 times, and I'll say it again: I don't for a second doubt th way you, a good breeder or the people on here who have purebred cats love and care for them. I don't agree with some of the things "fanciers" deem right, however. I also don't for a second think those cats' lives are worth less. And I DON'T think it makes you a horrible, heartless person to have chosen to get purebreds. I think it means you made what I BELIEVE is a poor choice. And I'm going to continue to counsel everyone who seeks my counsel to adopt and rescue.

Most people, including me, would question what right you have to tell someone they have to have a moggie by wanting all breeders gone. As far as I am concerned, as long as they give the cat a good home, it doesn't bother me where they get the cat, because if they give it a good home it is less likely to end up on the streets or in a shelter.

I also think that most breeders would question your statement of 'when his program no longer has use for them, they're fixed, packed up and shipped away. The whole idea of being committed and providing "forever homes" and stability to this animal has just been tossed out the window'. Many breeders (and I am sure Nial included) work hard to find forever homes for the cats they breed

a short quote from Nial's website

It is not like breeders are just giving them away in 'free to a good home' boxes

I'm sure you work hard to save cats. In fact, I said I respected you for that.

But I think your statement about 'playthings' and all it entails is just plain silly (if not a little self-serving). ALL domestic felines are manipulated by human beings in some way. Even moggies, who probably wouldn't even exist if it weren't for us humans manipulating them and their environment. They'd likely be just as happy in a forest in some secluded part of the world as they would in your home or mine.

As for what breeders bring to the table, health would be one thing you should have an appreciation for. Breeders work hard to breed out congenital diseases. They also work very hard on temperament. All of those things are translated down to moggies.

No, I fully agree with you on two things:
1. That Nial does a fantastic job caring for his cats and genuinely has their best interest at heart
2. That BYBers are a bigger problem then "good" breeders.

My questions were: Why, when breeders are responsible for the cats in their breeding programs (and then spend so much time and money caring for them!) they can't give their breeding stock a forever home. It just makes it seem to me that they are fully committed to their breed, but not necessarily their cats.

As far as genetic problems and breeders, you really don't want to get me started on this, but first, a quick genetics lesson:
1. Organisms will be healthier and have fewers problems, the more diverse their genes are. This is why inbreeding doesn't work. And yet, any breeding program is going to have inbreeding.
2. The reason certain cats (or bats, or people) have genetic problems is because of certain bad mutations, which do not occur in the majority of organisms and with Darwinian Natural Selection at work, would soon be weeded out by the stronger, more useful genes.

Therefore, cats like Sphynx, Manx, Persians....well, let's just say cats have fur and tails and long noses for a reason. Nature made them that way to AVOID the problems that plague these breeds.

And yet, we breed these and think they're just adorable or wonderful without ever thinking "hey, maybe there was a reason cats are supposed to have fur, tails, etc"

There's such a thing as being too idealistic. I've recently gotten roped back into working for the local shelter, whose adoption policies I find counterproductive (in this case, no senior citizens can adopt, and all cats must be indoor/outdoor unless you adopt a pair of kittens who've never been outdoors), as it leads to too many cats being left to vegetate for months, or even years, in the "cat home", because, how horrible, a 67-year-old might not outlive a 10-year-old cat, or somebody with a huge house and secured balcony or porch wouldn't be offering a former feral, who never even ventures near an open window or door, freedom to roam.

If we left things up to nature, most cats would be hiding in forests as far away from humans as possible. We humans have bred cats with the temperament to be able to live with us. Do you not step in when a mother cat at your rescue refuses to feed/clean/care for one or all of her kittens? None of this is black and white.

Your 'genetics lesson' is condescending and unessesary. You related the treatment of animals in the cat fancy to humans earlier. I'll do the same here. We have the technology to override natural selection in humans. It has allowed us to save many lives, both human and cat lives. People will always abuse the power of technology, but that doesn't mean we should scrap it all together.

That's an awfully big "could"....especially given the fact that they have that choice today and are not choosing to go the shelter route. And just because you take the option to buy a purebred out of a magazine doesn't mean that people are going to start to look at adopting instead. As I stated earlier....people are smuggling in small breed puppies from Mexico....it isn't a far fetched notion that sooner or later they will also be bringing in kittens.

I think if we want to bring the "overpopulation" under control we must 1. spay/neuter every single dog/puppy/cat/kitten in a shelter or rescue group before it is adopted out. 2. we must spay/neuter (TNR) every feral cat 3. we must offer low cost/free spay/neuter options for people who have animals. Those 3 alone will tremendously reduce the number of kittens and puppies that are born.

Katie

I agree with you when it comes to the Persians. I also think that what they've done to Persians to give them the Peke face, has caused them several health problems, not to mention the fact that they can't breathe and eat as easily as cats with noses. As far as Sphynx go, I thought they came that way naturally. Aren't they some sacred cat of ancient Egypt. I didn't think a bunch of breeders got together to make the cat hairless. We had a Manx when I was growing up. I know that not only do they either have a tuft for a tail, a small stub, or no tail at all, they also have longer back legs, and they move differently from other cats. I do know that a lot of Manx have problems, though. I don't agree with what a lot of breeders and judges are requiring for standard for certain breeds. In the case of the Persian, the doll faced Persian is much prettier than the peke faced, at least in m opinion, and I'm sure much healthier.

As far as shelters and rescue's not allowing at the age of 67 adopting a cat, I don't go for that. Seniors need animals to make their lives more worthwhile, not to mention that having a pet extends the lives of most seniors. Adopting a cat out to a healthy senior is a great idea in my opinion, not only is it benefitting and perhaps extending the life of a person, but giving a cat a loving home, especially a 10 year old cat, that is pretty much a senior itself.

Requiring that a home be indoor outdoor is just crazy. Indoor cats live longer healthier lives.

The norm however in many European countries is to have indoor/outdoor cats... so the shelters where Tricia live are acting on that

Yes, I know it's the "norm", I just wish it wasn't. Even if I lived in Germany, I could never let my cats outside. It's too dangerous out there for them. Not to mention someone could steal the animal, they could get hit by a car, they could get diseases, get attacked by other animals et et. I guess if someone wants to let their cat out, it's their business, but I would hate to be told, I HAD to let my cat outside.

I agree Hope, but to some extent it is more understandable (in Europe) to find it in an adoption clause than turning someone down because they are too old

If you change the word "cat" to "dog" and alter some feline-specific remarks to remarks more applicable to canines, we are not only in the same church but also in the same pew as far as personal opinions go. I try to keep a lid on it on the dog boards where I hang out because many members are "reputable breeders" and take pride in their dogs. The last thing I want to do is run them off or get run off myself-dog boards need all kinds of members to be worthwhile. And breeders tend to be very helpful and knowledgable.

But I think there may be a difference between deliberately breeding dogs and cats in one regard: "companion dogs" (like Shih Tzu and Maltese) are in the minority, while dogs with some kind of purpose (herding dogs, guard dogs, hunting dogs, etc) are still out there in great numbers doing some kind of job with and for humans. So if I were looking for homes for cats, no I would not want to adopt them out to a BYB. But to lump anyone who is breeding dogs into that category is not right IMO. It is extremely hard to differentiate between BYBs and reputable breeders using some objective criteria. Heaven knows many breeders who appear to be reputable suddenly are not when problems arise. If there were an easy way to tell the difference, we could setup some kind of system or membership. As it is, BYB, puppymill and reputable breeder all turn to the AKC for their seal of approval and get it, too. I think if someone can produce proof that the dogs they breed have some special ability I would have no problem at all adopting an animal to them. You have strong feelings against it, that is your right and privelege.

Sphynx happened through a relatively recent mutation, when some hairless cats were born to a hairy cat. They were then bred to each other and voila! breed!

Just some food for thought:

http://nationalpetalliance.com/owned-cats.htm

1994??? Come on...it's been 12 years since that came out. Although I can appreciate that unowned cats can reproduce at a greater rate....their offspring also have a greater chance of dyinig before making it to sexual maturity. Additionally, since TNR has gained in acceptance...more stray & feral cat colonies are being spayed/neutered.

In Virginia I have seen a trend towards less strays in shelters and more owner give ups (2000-2005).

Katie

Unfortunately, we're seeing that same trend in Cook County, IL. And TNR has only relatively recently been accepted around here.

So I guess the question remains:

How do we educate owners so that they realize cats and dogs are lifetime family members?

and

How do we make sure the people we are adopting to are taking their new commitment seriously?

I personally am a fan of involved adoption processes, provided they don't alienate potential adopters. I really believe that certain people are worthy of being declined, but for the most part, I think we should work to form an adopter/counselor relationship in which the adopter is being educated rather than interrogated and I believe in not-so-immediate adoption so the adopter becomes very committed to and serious about their new addition.

Declawing and the importance of wet-food and introducing cats are the things I most frequently get "Wow! I didn't know that, but I'm glad I do now!"s with. You can be firm about the organization's stance and the prevailing beliefs of the more experienced cat-community without making your adopters feel like crap. I also believe in objectifying the criteria for adoption from rescues as much as possible to avoid having your policies work against you. Of course, there will always unfortunately be area where they will. If we can make it work 90% for us and 10% against us....I guess we're doing well then.

I don't see it as a bad trend...to me, it potentially means that people are not dumping their cats, but are actually taking them to the shelter. Isn't that why the "no kill" movement started??

From Maddies Fund:

What are the benefits of an adoption guarantee?

A. An adoption guarantee gives a community confidence that an animal shelter is truly a shelter, that is, a respite on the way to a new loving home. When this happens, the community becomes an active partner in saving lives. For example: Maddie’s Fund believes that many people who abandon their animals on the streets do so because they fear their family pet will die if surrendered to an animal shelter. This, then, starts a negative cycle, a cycle that starts with the perception the animal will die, which leads to people’s fear of using the shelter, which leads to abandonment on the street, which puts the animal at risk of injury, illness and uncontrolled breeding. Then, when the animals are impounded as sick and injured strays, they’re killed at animal control. With an adoption guarantee that says no healthy cat or dog will die in any community shelter, you break the cycle. People who find lost animals, who no longer want their animals or who can no longer keep their animals can have the confidence to bring them into the shelter, knowing these animal lives will be saved. They won’t abandon them on the street or leave them tied up in the backyard. And these healthy animals can then be placed, which then reduces shelter deaths and euthanasia costs.

Due to the strict rules at the two local shelters unless I lie on the application form I will never be able to adopt a cat or kitten or even foster for them. Why-because my cats are indoor/outdoor. Granted more indoor than outside but I would have to tell my vet and friends not to mention when they call for references this fact. The one shelter I picked up the foster application and after reading it I said to myself you have got to be kidding me!! For instance one questions-how would you disipline a cat/kitten who jumps up on the kitchen table? Me -I picked them up and put them on the floor if they don't respond to "the look". I would love to foster some cats/kittens but I feel the shelter would rather PTS than use me with 25+ yrs of cat experience as a foster home.

I think its great that more stray/feral cats are being altered. But do you think the number of owned cats (especially pedigreed cats) that are responsible for the overpopulation problem (in other words, indescriminate breeding) has increased? If anything, I would think that has also decreased as owners and especially breeders are being better educated on the issue.

But the article was just 'food for thought'. I haven't been able, yet, to find any more recent studies. If you have any sources, please do share them.

Statistically speaking, there's a higher rate of a lot of negative things happening to indoor/outdoor cats than indoor-only cats, and there's a ton of objective research to back that up. At my rescue, at least, we are personally acquainted with each and every cat in the building and feel AWFUL every time we hear about anything bad happening to them. Our policy exists to help owners cut out the things that statistically cause them harm. It really shouldn't be taken as you being a "bad owner" or "lacking experience", but rather, you've decided that the benefits of the outdoors trump the risks, which is your personal decision. These rescues have simply made a different decision for their animals based on widely-available statistics. It's not a personal slam at all, but a researched, objective and calculated policy. Maybe you have a personal system that cuts the risks. Maybe you have some special circumstance where the risk is lower. Unfortunately, the vast majority of indoor/outdoor cats have no such circumstances existing for them and it would be costly and impossible for rescues and shelters to do home visits and observations for everyone and every single unique case, rather than just in situations where we have a reason to believe our policies are not being followed and/or the animal is suffering.

As far as the discipline thing goes: it may seem like a silly question. Our application asks "What will you feed you new cat?"....most people laugh at this question! The question is there for two reasons: first, to start a dialouge, since your average off-the-street pet owners have antiquated information on feeding and don't realize it. Second, because you'd be surprised (and horrified) if you knew how often we see things like "milk" or "table scraps" or "mice/rats from the basement". I guess what I'm saying is that discipline can easily translate to some people as "hitting" or "kicking" or otherwise intimidating the animal. Perhaps the rescue is looking to weed out potentially abusive people. Not only that, but say someone puts "spray with waterbottle", which as many of us here know, will do nothing but potentially make the cat afraid of the squirter and possible cause moisture/yeast buildup in the ears if the cat is being repeatedly sprayed in the face. Perhaps it's there to start a dialouge with people with less experience about how to "think like a cat".

So, (and this is what I tell a lot of adopters who scoff or laugh at our applications) you have to realize that we've literally seen it all. Just this Halloween, we have no less than 3 people come to the door specifically requesting black and/or white cats for reasons they would not give us. We also have a lot of homeless who want to adopt, and people who come from the halfway house that's 3 blocks away. We have seen literally every kind of person with every quirk and question and good and bad attribute try to adopt from us. It's a hard job and we as counselors absolutely have to be fair to everyone. In your case, no, we couldn't adopt to you. I personally know how well taken care of your cats are...but what about the people who I don't know as well who may or may not have done as good a job supervising outside visits? We just have to measure everyone with the same stick, otherwise you get situations like the above one that Hope described where people pick and choose based on personal preference and their "gut". It just doesn't work and we have an obligation to be as fair and consistent as possible with out adopters and as committed to our cats as we can.

I am lucky all the rescues will adopt to me ... but they dont have near the regulations that city rescues need for safety ... plus most are mom and pop type run out of homes of volenteers.. I understand all but the rule about turning an animal in.. I had too once .. I gave her two years of love , training and commitment but she was not the right fit... Perhaps if you had been a dog couselor I would have been matched right..lol.. You see I adopted a springer pointer mix of about a yr... she was a dalmation( which I found out the local shelters here euthanize at entry( whole other story) spinger mix.. who was 5 months ... I took care of her food allergies , got sit and come down but in the end she cost me two knee surgeries and a lot of heart ache and I turned her back to the shelter I got her per the adoption agreement ... Story was happy she went to a farm

You know, I think the reason I personally feel justified in being so picky is that not only do I spend hours and hours with all of the kitties to get a feel of their behaviors in as many circumstances as I can, but I also spend hours observing the adopters with kitties and talking to the adopters about their lifestyles and expectations in a cat. With 300 cats in the building, it's hard not to find something for every family who's willing to work with us and our policies. I've spent weeks on some adoptions and we really do go the extra mile for these people. Ultimately, who they take home is up to them, but we're usually very good and gentle at explaining why certain cats would not be appropriate for certain homes, and with an extensive documentation system (we keep big medical and behavioral files on all cats and we don't really foster- when we do, it's employees and long-time appointed volunteers ONLY) we can tell people exactly how the cats have acted in the clinic, in Iso, on the floor, with each other, etc. We also do follow-up calls 2 weeks in on EVERY adopted cat. Not to mention that we offer complimentary in-house vet care for the first month and free referals and behavioral consultations for the life of the cat. I think because we work so hard to make sure things are as good as they can be, we can have higher expectations than other shelters have.

We could use a shelter like you guys .. evan the no kill only takes a lisence and maybe a landlord call .... My bigger trouble is everyone wanting me adopting babies when I want older... at this pt I would evan adopt a senior cat..

We have a program that matches our therapy cats with seniors and people with disabilities. So basically, when an older person or person who has some sort of disability that would make it difficult to care for a young cat or kitten comes in, we work with them to find a therapy kitty appropriate to their family. We had a 90 year old on oxygen this summer become quite irate when we would not adopt a kitten to her. The age is currently not set in stone (we're working with some people on how to find the "right" age and institute it), but older people generally accept with open arms the kitties we believe are right for their lifestyles. I recently adopted out a gorgeous 10-year old patched tabby to an extremely sweet 75-year-old couple. But the whole policy is pretty new and definitely a work-in-progress.

We also ask everyone in the question and answer if they have formulated a plan for if there is an emergency that would leave them unable to care for the cat. People also take that a lot more kindly than "So, if you die soon, what wil you do with the kitty?" And we also explain to the older people that yes, we ask everyone that (which we do...cuz, hey, we could all have life throw a catastrophy-no pun intended- at us at any time). We'll also help people write pets into living wills and contact people to set up "kitty trusts" as we call them. It's really cool to see the lightbulb go on over peoples' heads.

ETA: I forgot to add that we've also had retired people adopt pairs of kittens and have the "next in line" family member (usually a child of the adopter) attend the entire process, go through the education part and help select the kittens and sign the papers as a primary caregiver who understands the shelter policies and care guidelines. It's pretty rare that family members are that enthusiastic, but I HAS happened once (maybe twice?) since I've been there. But the other family person has to basically willing to adopt the cat, too. So, like I said, waaaayyy the exception rather than the rule, but it IS something we will accomodate.

Actually...if I were to look from a "shelter" perspective...it would change from area to area as to whether there were more strays or owner give ups...for the STATE of Virginia however the overall percentage of strays has reduced while the overall percentage of owner give ups has increased. If you are interested in seeing the spreadsheet...just PM me. Last year was the second year in a row that shelter information was posted online. We've had 3 low cost clinics open this year so I'm hoping to see a decrease in euthanizations from the areas served by those new clinics in the next few years. It's a very exciting time.

Katie

I can understand why they are so wary but anyone who is willing to take in this speical needs kitten should be aloud to do so. The shelter should offer the family support services and advice on how to care for him. They could offer them a training course on what to expect and how to deal with a deaf and blind kitty.

Well, my local Humane Society seems to be pretty good although I'm not real involved with them. But I did recently have an issue with the Humane Society in La Crosse. Apparently they tend to prefer euthanasia over adoption for some animals, even if they're not aggressive or anything. The issue I had was with a rabbit that they wanted to euthanize. He'd been there for several months, had some people interested in him but they never followed through, and was very scared at the shelter. But he was easy to handle and friendly, especially for the volunteer who usually works with the rabbits- she's the one who told me about him. Well, they decided he had shelter burn-out and needed to be euthanized. They said they would not allow an individual to adopt him, not even someone with experience with neglected/abused rabbits. I don't know why. So we scrambled and found a no-kill rescue to claim him with me as the foster mom. Even with that, it took some cajoling until they released him to me.

So I've had this rabbit for a week now, and this burned-out beast who was supposed to be difficult for the paid caretakers to handle is an absolute love! He has excellent manners and just wants to snuggle with me. And they were insisting that he needed to be euthanized.

Apparently this isn't the first time problems like this have happened. There's even rumors that the person in charge of deciding who gets euthanized puts more dogs on the list when she's feeling bad. And the office politics! Oh my lord! Granted, that's just from what one person has been telling me, but she's pretty well grounded in reality. It boggles my mind. Why would you insist on killing an animal that could have a good home?