TheCatSite.com › Forums › General Forums › IMO: In My Opinion › McDonalds and other stuff
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

McDonalds and other stuff - Page 2

post #31 of 43
I think there is some serious misconception about the use of animal models in this thread. Since several of you are quite convinced we can do without them, Id like to ask for your suggestions how. Do not however, attempt to tell me computer modelling is the way - we do not have "enough" information to build an appropriate computer model. HUGE animal sacrifices would be needed to that end. In terms of cats and aspirins....well ive never heard of anyone using a cat as an ideal human model, because you are right - they are too different from us. Physiologically though, several animal species, pigs come immediately to mind, are VERY near identical to human...I am offended by the suggestion that scientists dont look for alternatives to animal models. Spend some time in the scientific community - not reading about it in magazine or newspaper articles - and you will see how wrong you are. I was stunned, STUNNED by how hard-core "do anything but use animals" the University system is. Very impressive. I had to complete ethics training, theoretical mouse training, mouse handling lab (14 hrs total) before even being allowed INTO the animal facility. Scientists do not run around on a kill-frenzy. Animal use protocols are needed and need animal ethics committee approval for every animal and every experimental procedure to be used on those animals. You dont have this approval, you dont do your experiments, you dont get published.
Now, I DO NOT feel animals were put here just to serve our purposes, but I do think if we can use them to serve our purposes in a humane way, while giving back to the animal community, that we are morally able to use them that way. Neither one of us is right you know, what you choose to feel may be right FOR YOU, and me right FOR ME, but that doesnt mean one of us actually is "right". I wonder though, how strongly you do stand by your feelings. I mean, if you were hardcore, you wouldnt keep pets. Less hardcore but true to your guns, your animals wouldnt be vaccinated or kept indoors. Do your ethical standpoints change when the animals being kept/used "without its consent" are kept as "pets" and not "research animals?"
Just curious.
post #32 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by silentNate View Post
As a pescetarian there is nothing on their menu I can eat- the fries have added beef flavourings, all the burgers are fried in chicken fat (in the UK) and they use chicken fat to thicken their shakes...

I really feel I'm missing out
Now chicken fat in shakes is enough to make anyone sick, and it's beyond me why they'd need to add extra fat to a burger. I'll be honest, I do on rare occasions eat at McDonalds, however after reading this, I'm going to remember that they add chicken fat to everything, and pass them by.

Where is it written, where they are cruel to animals, though?
post #33 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopeHacker View Post
Now chicken fat in shakes is enough to make anyone sick, and it's beyond me why they'd need to add extra fat to a burger. I'll be honest, I do on rare occasions eat at McDonalds, however after reading this, I'm going to remember that they add chicken fat to everything, and pass them by.

Where is it written, where they are cruel to animals, though?
The meat processing plants they use have major issues with the way the animals are treated. To get more info on this read Fast Food Nation. It's a real eye opener.
post #34 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Februa View Post
I wonder though, how strongly you do stand by your feelings. I mean, if you were hardcore, you wouldnt keep pets. Less hardcore but true to your guns, your animals wouldnt be vaccinated or kept indoors. Do your ethical standpoints change when the animals being kept/used "without its consent" are kept as "pets" and not "research animals?"
Just curious.
I understand what you mean when you compare pet keeping and other ways of using animals. It's a difficult question. All my cats are rescues or otherwise unwanted kittens and I'm no sure if I'd ever want to purchase a bred cat. To me, maybe the decision to start keeping pets or bringing cats to Finland wasn't the best possible in retrospect, but that's how it is and we have to deal with the cats here. The best way is to take good care of them, since they couldn't survive here without humans. I admid I get great selfish pleasure from my feline companions, but I hope and believe I'm giving them a lot in return and IMO they show every day they enjoy my company in addition to the 24-hour room service. I may be decieving myself, but I like to think of our relationship as a symbiosis rather than a host-parasite relationship, which animal industry and research undeniably is.

I don't think people shoudn't use medicine tested on animals, boycotts are meaningless when the law requires the businesses to act immorally. Drug companies aren't given any choise. I do think scientists should really take ending animal experiments as one of their priorities.

I don't think researchers conducting animal experiments are evil or on a killing frenzy. They are normal compassionate people, who are just stuck in one mode of thought, as we all are in differend ways.

I believe you when you say current computer models etc. aren't good enough. The point is, that's just the current state of knowledge. There is a strong mental barrier preventing any real work against animal experiments, obviously the scientist don't want to risk injury to people even though animal experiments are, as you say, very expensive. The funding and interest ending animal research gets is ridicilously low, though the situation is better than say, in the 70's. This is thanks to animal rights activists and public dissaproval, not initiated by the scientific community themselves.

I have a friend, who among other academic obligatons acts as a member in a university board evaluating applications for animal experiments, deciding what's allowed and what's not. Her insider view on animal experiments and the attitudes within the scientific community is quite bleak. She is not at all happy about the way things are done.

Finally, it's easy to wave the lethally sick child saved by animal experiments in front of abolitionists. The sad truth is that most medical animal experiments are done researching things like effects of smoking, obesity and other illnesses the Western world has got only themselves to blame for. This is because that's where the money is. No one is going to make big bucks inventing the cure for millions of AIDS victims in Africa, so that doesn't interest drug companies. I think it's pretty harsh to expect millions of innocent animals to pay for the rich people's desire to live in a way harmful to their health.

Is my mouth foaming yet?
post #35 of 43
I do not have the time to read through this entire thread at the moment, but I will be back to finish this at another time. But, I do enjoy McDonalds breakfast sandwiches (minus the meat) and treat myself to them once a week and I love their french fries, even though I'm a vegetarian. I also really enjoy Burger King's veggie burger and was very happy when they came out with that. As for animal testing, I'm very much against that and certainly try to stay away from buying products that do animal testing.

Interesting topic and I will be back to finish reading everyone's views!
post #36 of 43
I used to work at B.K. for 2 years and their "veggie" burger is questionable. In their nutrition information it has a little note saying at the bottom that **Burger King Corporation makes no claim that the BK VEGGIE® Burger or any other of its products meets the requirements of a vegan or vegetarian diet. The patty is cooked in the microwave.

http://www.bk.com/Nutrition/PDFs/brochure.pdf
post #37 of 43
Thread Starter 
Lol...I know, it says that at McDonalds, too.

And I didn't know it was chicken fat in their shakes - I thought it was pig fat, and in their softserves, too. Still gross, either way
post #38 of 43
I don't really like any of the fast food places, I alway's wonder if it's even meat
post #39 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by halfpint View Post
I don't really like any of the fast food places, I alway's wonder if it's even meat
Yeah, but nothin beats a 'slider' when you're drunk out of your mind!
post #40 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
You assume that I don't do anything other than not patronise these companies. You tell me to get others involved. I do things on a daily basis - a daily basis. I do write to senators, I do try to educate others, I do change people's opinions through talking and listening and debating. I do it all the time. But MOST importantly, I change my own practices - you cannot preach what you do not practice. And trust me, if you think the voices of people like me aren't being heard, again, you are naive and misinformed.
Actually, that bit wasn't specifically directed at you (nor was most of my post, actually ... just the first line -- sorry I didn't make that more clear! -- and it was not my intention to make you think that my previous post was a personal attack on you or your beliefs). When I lived in residence during my first year of university, I saw a surprising number of people who would talk and talk and talk about all the things they saw that were wrong with the world, but none of them actually did anything about it. They'd complain about Starbucks being this evil megacorp that was trying to take over the planet, but then they'd still buy their coffee from there. They'd complain about the way animals are treated, but then they'd march around in leather boots and fur-trimmed coats and think they're better people because they don't eat meat. Or the ones who'd just complain, but when others were trying to get them involved by signing petitions, writing letters or joining a boycott on such-and-such store, but didn't join because it's too much trouble or they don't have time or whatever. They'd be so passionate in their arguments, but when it actually came time to put their words into actions, they were nowhere to be found.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
People like Morgan Spurlock and Al Gore and Eric Schlosser started out as people like me! They believed in a cause and they took it all the way. If they didn't change their lives or their worlds or thought their voices weren't being heard, they wouldn't have bothered.
My point exactly. Sitting around on your butt all day (like the students I lived with in residence) gets you nowhere, but you don't have to be a high-profile politician or rockstar to be heard. Who was Morgan Spurlock before he made Super Size Me? I do believe individuals have the power to accomplish great things (despite what you seem to have read into my post), but I believe they accomplish more by drawing other people into it, and by making sure their voices are heard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
I'm not sure what you meant about being dead without animal testing. Is that because of medication you've been given? That is not because of animal testing - that is because of the hard work of incredibly dedicated people who have spent their whole lives trying to help others, mostly anonymously. Something that you seem to think is pointless, because individual efforts don't make a difference. Animal testing is a component of manufacture of medications. And whilst at this point it seems as though companies think it is needed, there are still better and more efficient methods of vivisection. In fact my last employer (a doctor) and I worked very closely together on establishing a new trend in the treatment of animals in labs, and he is doing very, very well with it.
Yes, that's right, because my post said that nobody was involved in the laboratory testing. The animals just up and got vivisected on their own, and the medications I have taken magically created themselves. Yes, that's exactly what I said. Right. I get it. No, what I said is that I'm alive because of animal testing. More to the point, actually, so are other members of my family, and some of them were able to exist because of animal testing that occurred years before it even occurred to anyone that it might be possible to test products without testing them on animals. At no point do I believe I discredited the hard work of the people involved in the research; I just said that animal testing was part of that research. (Or rather I didn't say, but assumed other people would think research and hard-working humans were involved in those discoveries.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
It sounds to me like you think it's wonderful if other people want to make an effort to change their lives and change the world, and it's going to work fine for you because you won't have to do anything and you'll reap the benefits of others' hard work anyway. I'm not talking about vegetarianism, I'm talking about a better world altogether, where environmental and ethical considerations win out of corporate consumerism and greed for power. Because those days are ending just as life as we know it is ending, and I hope that when hardworking people who care more about the planet than lining their pockets or living convenient lives finally fix this beautiful world of ours, that people who feel the way you do, and don't think that the individual should bother trying to change things, appreciate all the hard work they've done.
Whoa, whoa, whoa ... I said what now? Just because I choose to eat meat and use products that have been tested on animals, I'm somehow not involved in changing the world? I've somehow stepped away from all of this, washed my hands of any responsibility for my fellow human, and I'm now sitting in a hovel waiting for the world to change?!? Well, thank god other people are taking care of this for me! Just because animal rights and free trade are not my particular "causes" doesn't mean I don't have causes. I volunteer my time at a shelter for abused women. I foster kittens and their mothers for the local Humane Society. I participate in a group that educates young people about domestic violence. I used to teach ESL, and I was involved in a pilot project at my high school for giving students struggling with reading and writing a helping hand. I volunteer with SADD and MADD. At no point am I just sitting back and waiting for the world to end. I know what my strengths are. I champion the causes that touch me the most deeply, and acknowledge that I don't have the time or energy to fix all the wrongs in the world.

As for my comment about saying someone ought to be able to sleep well at night because they don't care about animal welfare was trite, well, I still mean it. Just because I'm not waking up at 3am thinking "My god! The environment!" or "Those poor lab rats!" doesn't mean I'm not waking up at 3am worrying about something. (The way I phrased that sounds really petty, but I just can't think of another way to put it.) I used to stress about these things. Maybe even a little obsessively. But since I'm already involved with the Humane Society, women's shelters and MADD, I simply don't have the time to devote to every thing that bothers me or stresses me out, and I realized it wasn't healthy for me to do so. Instead, I get to wake up at 3am thinking "My god, I hope C's husband doesn't kill her tonight" or "Those poor kittens who got doused in gasoline and dumped in a field behind my DF's work!" Or I get to worry about the fact that my 78-year-old grandfather is having surgery next week, or that I'm not going to be able to pay my credit card bill this month (or next month, or the month after that, oh and don't forget about my student loans), or that my DF's job is going to be cut because his plant keeps downsizing. Maybe these aren't earth-shattering events, but they certainly shatter my world, and by suggesting that my (or another poster's) apparent "lack" of a social conscience means we ought to be able to sleep easier at night ... well, that's what I mean by trite and demeaning. I'm not saying you're not ALSO worrying about these other things, but just that it's insulting to think that we sleep well because we choose not to worry about certain things.

And man, this was a long post!
post #41 of 43
Thread Starter 
Fair enough - and now that you have explained more I feel a little differently about your original post. It's pretty hard to get across all of your inner thoughts and meanings to people when you're thinking them all the time, but what comes out is only what goes down `on paper' so to speak, so that's all that people see. To me, your post appeared very personal, and certainly made out that I am just a talker and, more specifically while you `think it's perfectly laudable to follow your conscience and refuse to eat at places like McDonalds, or refuse to purchase products that have been tested on animals, how much do you really think you're accomplishing?' that really seemed directed specifically at me. As did this comment `don't just think that by not supporting these companies you're actually having an impact.'

But the same goes for my posts - I can only interpret what I read in front of me, as can others who read my posts. I probably come across way different than I intend to.

My original comment that you thought was trite was directed at a post which seemed to me to be exactly what I find frustrating about many people. To say `I dont really bother with learning what their [McDonalds] practices are. Because if I didnt go to someplace just because of how they did something I wouldnt be able to go anywhere. So I just figure whatever and go about doing what I want.' just makes me boil. People say `that's just me', or `that's just my opinion' and expect others to think that's it's ok then. But it's NOT fine for people to have that attitude - I really think it's just another example of living a convenient life and not having to make an effort at all. Which would be ok if it was just their own life people were affecting - but we are all in this life together, and now more than ever we all need to do what we can to help solve our global problems.

Basically, we ALL need to pitch in to help save our world. I'm not talking about McDonalds or being vegetarian or anything, although that kind of thing is a start. (And I'm talking about the environmental implications of eating less meat when I say that, not the animal rights issues). I'm talking about doing the right thing wherever you can, which for many is just too hard, and the prevailing attitude seems to be I'll keep thinking about me and the world will fix itself around me. THAT's what I find annoying, that's what I find so frustrating, and that's mostly what I meant when I said what I did. It really must be easy for people like that to sleep well, to not have to think about things that affect the world, to sit back and let others do the work - essentially to live in purposeful ignorance. And ignorance is bliss, so they say.

It's not always the case (in fact it's only in a few cases) where individuals get up and do enough to change the world in a public way - again, people like Al Gore and Morgan Spurlock. But if people continue to sit back, thinking it's too hard to avoid places like McDonalds or other companies with similar histories, who feel that changing their lives or making individual efforts is an inconvenience, and I hear about it, then I get angry, and yes, I generally do have a go.

I LOVE it when people like you will snap right back at me and argue - because to me that is the way things change, the way people learn, and the way things get done. Apathy is what annoys me the most I guess, and laziness, whether it be in personal conviction or lack of action.
post #42 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitEKats4Eva! View Post
I LOVE it when people like you will snap right back at me and argue - because to me that is the way things change, the way people learn, and the way things get done. Apathy is what annoys me the most I guess, and laziness, whether it be in personal conviction or lack of action.
Hear, hear! It's that self-same apathy that I was trying to talk about in my post: the students (in my residence) who'd get so fired up about animal rights or global warming or whatever their cause du jour was, but who couldn't actually be bothered to do anything about it besides talk. I just think, wow, if all the people who claim to be angered by animal rights/human rights violations or global warming or hungry greedy corporations actually got up and did something about it, just think of how much they would accomplish. So I guess I really just see my role here as being the kind of person who gets other people so ed off that they go out and do something just to prove me wrong. That's what got me fired up about women's rights issues -- one smart-mouthed jack saying the wrong thing at the right time.
post #43 of 43
I eat McDonalds...and BK, sometimes Wendy's. I know that stuff does some serious damage, not to mention Animal Cruelty is a biggie for me. But I cant help it, im hooked.

Im trying to eat way less of it though, since im officially on a diet
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: IMO: In My Opinion
TheCatSite.com › Forums › General Forums › IMO: In My Opinion › McDonalds and other stuff