McDonalds and other stuff - Page 2

I think there is some serious misconception about the use of animal models in this thread. Since several of you are quite convinced we can do without them, Id like to ask for your suggestions how. Do not however, attempt to tell me computer modelling is the way - we do not have "enough" information to build an appropriate computer model. HUGE animal sacrifices would be needed to that end. In terms of cats and aspirins....well ive never heard of anyone using a cat as an ideal human model, because you are right - they are too different from us. Physiologically though, several animal species, pigs come immediately to mind, are VERY near identical to human...I am offended by the suggestion that scientists dont look for alternatives to animal models. Spend some time in the scientific community - not reading about it in magazine or newspaper articles - and you will see how wrong you are. I was stunned, STUNNED by how hard-core "do anything but use animals" the University system is. Very impressive. I had to complete ethics training, theoretical mouse training, mouse handling lab (14 hrs total) before even being allowed INTO the animal facility. Scientists do not run around on a kill-frenzy. Animal use protocols are needed and need animal ethics committee approval for every animal and every experimental procedure to be used on those animals. You dont have this approval, you dont do your experiments, you dont get published.
Now, I DO NOT feel animals were put here just to serve our purposes, but I do think if we can use them to serve our purposes in a humane way, while giving back to the animal community, that we are morally able to use them that way. Neither one of us is right you know, what you choose to feel may be right FOR YOU, and me right FOR ME, but that doesnt mean one of us actually is "right". I wonder though, how strongly you do stand by your feelings. I mean, if you were hardcore, you wouldnt keep pets. Less hardcore but true to your guns, your animals wouldnt be vaccinated or kept indoors. Do your ethical standpoints change when the animals being kept/used "without its consent" are kept as "pets" and not "research animals?"
Just curious.

Now chicken fat in shakes is enough to make anyone sick, and it's beyond me why they'd need to add extra fat to a burger. I'll be honest, I do on rare occasions eat at McDonalds, however after reading this, I'm going to remember that they add chicken fat to everything, and pass them by.

Where is it written, where they are cruel to animals, though?

The meat processing plants they use have major issues with the way the animals are treated. To get more info on this read Fast Food Nation. It's a real eye opener.

I understand what you mean when you compare pet keeping and other ways of using animals. It's a difficult question. All my cats are rescues or otherwise unwanted kittens and I'm no sure if I'd ever want to purchase a bred cat. To me, maybe the decision to start keeping pets or bringing cats to Finland wasn't the best possible in retrospect, but that's how it is and we have to deal with the cats here. The best way is to take good care of them, since they couldn't survive here without humans. I admid I get great selfish pleasure from my feline companions, but I hope and believe I'm giving them a lot in return and IMO they show every day they enjoy my company in addition to the 24-hour room service. I may be decieving myself, but I like to think of our relationship as a symbiosis rather than a host-parasite relationship, which animal industry and research undeniably is.

I don't think people shoudn't use medicine tested on animals, boycotts are meaningless when the law requires the businesses to act immorally. Drug companies aren't given any choise. I do think scientists should really take ending animal experiments as one of their priorities.

I don't think researchers conducting animal experiments are evil or on a killing frenzy. They are normal compassionate people, who are just stuck in one mode of thought, as we all are in differend ways.

I believe you when you say current computer models etc. aren't good enough. The point is, that's just the current state of knowledge. There is a strong mental barrier preventing any real work against animal experiments, obviously the scientist don't want to risk injury to people even though animal experiments are, as you say, very expensive. The funding and interest ending animal research gets is ridicilously low, though the situation is better than say, in the 70's. This is thanks to animal rights activists and public dissaproval, not initiated by the scientific community themselves.

I have a friend, who among other academic obligatons acts as a member in a university board evaluating applications for animal experiments, deciding what's allowed and what's not. Her insider view on animal experiments and the attitudes within the scientific community is quite bleak. She is not at all happy about the way things are done.

Finally, it's easy to wave the lethally sick child saved by animal experiments in front of abolitionists. The sad truth is that most medical animal experiments are done researching things like effects of smoking, obesity and other illnesses the Western world has got only themselves to blame for. This is because that's where the money is. No one is going to make big bucks inventing the cure for millions of AIDS victims in Africa, so that doesn't interest drug companies. I think it's pretty harsh to expect millions of innocent animals to pay for the rich people's desire to live in a way harmful to their health.

Is my mouth foaming yet?

I do not have the time to read through this entire thread at the moment, but I will be back to finish this at another time. But, I do enjoy McDonalds breakfast sandwiches (minus the meat) and treat myself to them once a week and I love their french fries, even though I'm a vegetarian. I also really enjoy Burger King's veggie burger and was very happy when they came out with that. As for animal testing, I'm very much against that and certainly try to stay away from buying products that do animal testing.

Interesting topic and I will be back to finish reading everyone's views!

I used to work at B.K. for 2 years and their "veggie" burger is questionable. In their nutrition information it has a little note saying at the bottom that **Burger King Corporation makes no claim that the BK VEGGIE® Burger or any other of its products meets the requirements of a vegan or vegetarian diet. The patty is cooked in the microwave.

http://www.bk.com/Nutrition/PDFs/brochure.pdf

I don't really like any of the fast food places, I alway's wonder if it's even meat

Yeah, but nothin beats a 'slider' when you're drunk out of your mind!

Actually, that bit wasn't specifically directed at you (nor was most of my post, actually ... just the first line -- sorry I didn't make that more clear! -- and it was not my intention to make you think that my previous post was a personal attack on you or your beliefs). When I lived in residence during my first year of university, I saw a surprising number of people who would talk and talk and talk about all the things they saw that were wrong with the world, but none of them actually did anything about it. They'd complain about Starbucks being this evil megacorp that was trying to take over the planet, but then they'd still buy their coffee from there. They'd complain about the way animals are treated, but then they'd march around in leather boots and fur-trimmed coats and think they're better people because they don't eat meat. Or the ones who'd just complain, but when others were trying to get them involved by signing petitions, writing letters or joining a boycott on such-and-such store, but didn't join because it's too much trouble or they don't have time or whatever. They'd be so passionate in their arguments, but when it actually came time to put their words into actions, they were nowhere to be found.

My point exactly. Sitting around on your butt all day (like the students I lived with in residence) gets you nowhere, but you don't have to be a high-profile politician or rockstar to be heard. Who was Morgan Spurlock before he made Super Size Me? I do believe individuals have the power to accomplish great things (despite what you seem to have read into my post), but I believe they accomplish more by drawing other people into it, and by making sure their voices are heard.

Yes, that's right, because my post said that nobody was involved in the laboratory testing. The animals just up and got vivisected on their own, and the medications I have taken magically created themselves. Yes, that's exactly what I said. Right. I get it. No, what I said is that I'm alive because of animal testing. More to the point, actually, so are other members of my family, and some of them were able to exist because of animal testing that occurred years before it even occurred to anyone that it might be possible to test products without testing them on animals. At no point do I believe I discredited the hard work of the people involved in the research; I just said that animal testing was part of that research. (Or rather I didn't say, but assumed other people would think research and hard-working humans were involved in those discoveries.)

Whoa, whoa, whoa ... I said what now? Just because I choose to eat meat and use products that have been tested on animals, I'm somehow not involved in changing the world? I've somehow stepped away from all of this, washed my hands of any responsibility for my fellow human, and I'm now sitting in a hovel waiting for the world to change?!? Well, thank god other people are taking care of this for me! Just because animal rights and free trade are not my particular "causes" doesn't mean I don't have causes. I volunteer my time at a shelter for abused women. I foster kittens and their mothers for the local Humane Society. I participate in a group that educates young people about domestic violence. I used to teach ESL, and I was involved in a pilot project at my high school for giving students struggling with reading and writing a helping hand. I volunteer with SADD and MADD. At no point am I just sitting back and waiting for the world to end. I know what my strengths are. I champion the causes that touch me the most deeply, and acknowledge that I don't have the time or energy to fix all the wrongs in the world.

As for my comment about saying someone ought to be able to sleep well at night because they don't care about animal welfare was trite, well, I still mean it. Just because I'm not waking up at 3am thinking "My god! The environment!" or "Those poor lab rats!" doesn't mean I'm not waking up at 3am worrying about something. (The way I phrased that sounds really petty, but I just can't think of another way to put it.) I used to stress about these things. Maybe even a little obsessively. But since I'm already involved with the Humane Society, women's shelters and MADD, I simply don't have the time to devote to every thing that bothers me or stresses me out, and I realized it wasn't healthy for me to do so. Instead, I get to wake up at 3am thinking "My god, I hope C's husband doesn't kill her tonight" or "Those poor kittens who got doused in gasoline and dumped in a field behind my DF's work!" Or I get to worry about the fact that my 78-year-old grandfather is having surgery next week, or that I'm not going to be able to pay my credit card bill this month (or next month, or the month after that, oh and don't forget about my student loans), or that my DF's job is going to be cut because his plant keeps downsizing. Maybe these aren't earth-shattering events, but they certainly shatter my world, and by suggesting that my (or another poster's) apparent "lack" of a social conscience means we ought to be able to sleep easier at night ... well, that's what I mean by trite and demeaning. I'm not saying you're not ALSO worrying about these other things, but just that it's insulting to think that we sleep well because we choose not to worry about certain things.

And man, this was a long post!

Hear, hear! It's that self-same apathy that I was trying to talk about in my post: the students (in my residence) who'd get so fired up about animal rights or global warming or whatever their cause du jour was, but who couldn't actually be bothered to do anything about it besides talk. I just think, wow, if all the people who claim to be angered by animal rights/human rights violations or global warming or hungry greedy corporations actually got up and did something about it, just think of how much they would accomplish. So I guess I really just see my role here as being the kind of person who gets other people so ed off that they go out and do something just to prove me wrong. That's what got me fired up about women's rights issues -- one smart-mouthed jack saying the wrong thing at the right time.

I eat McDonalds...and BK, sometimes Wendy's. I know that stuff does some serious damage, not to mention Animal Cruelty is a biggie for me. But I cant help it, im hooked.

Im trying to eat way less of it though, since im officially on a diet