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"Fetal Pain Bill"

post #1 of 28
12/6/06 at 3:26am
Thread Starter 
This is the first I'd heard of this: http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/11/....ap/index.html
and one of those rare instances that I'm in full agreement with the Republican congressmen.
And I'm ashamed to admit it, but I never thought to consider the pain that might be suffered by babies during late abortions. I am definitely pro-choice, although I could not do an abortion my ownself, but I do think it's fair to prevent pain to the fetuses, and that women should be educated on that possibility. Hopefully, at 20 wks. gestation, the baby doesn't feel pain, but is that a risk that the society should take???? How can we be sure that pain isn't felt till 28 weeks?
What the abortion issue really means to me is how alone pregnant women can be....so sad, so sad! I think that's why I'm so pro-choice - it's too easy to tell someone to keep the baby, or just adopt it out (it's hard to hide a pregnancy, and sometimes the life disruptions would be devastating for others in the family), but if the woman does that, how much support is the society willing to give her???
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post #2 of 28
12/6/06 at 10:20am
What strikes me about that article is:"Next year, the leadership of the House will be hardcore pro-abortion loyalists," said Douglas Johnson, legislative director of the National Right to Life Committee."
Whenever I see pro-choice advocates labeled pro-abortion, I become suspicious of the entire message.
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post #3 of 28
12/6/06 at 10:55am
This reinforces my conviction that I did the right thing last November. I am liberal and a Democrat, but normally I will vote for a candidate rather than a party. It made me ill to vote against Charlie Bass (R) and cast my vote for an individual so undeserving of same like Paul Hodes (D) but I did so because I was "voting with my middle finger", as did many other Americans.

These bible-thumping, flag-waving hypocrites would have left a more positive impression if they had found the time to make a serious effort at cleaning up the pedophiles and financial crooks they have been covering up for within their ranks. Instead they engage in pseudo-science to further what they think they can sell to their constituents as a Christian-based political agenda.

Good riddance to the lot of them in January!
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post #4 of 28
12/6/06 at 11:19am
i personally think this is stupid. i'm pro-life, & i'd love it if abortion were illegal unless medically necessary... but this article says the women are given a choice of whether to use the anesthesia. so, it seems to me that the whole point of the bill is to lay a guilt trip on the woman, making her feel like she's causing pain while she's killing her baby. dumb! if realizing that she's ending a life doesn't bother her, why would causing pain? most people who are pro-choice don't considerable babies of abortionable [is that a word?] age to be babies yet, anyway. that's why it's considered ok to kill them. why is it ok to kill them but not ok to cause them pain? like i said, sounds like a stupid bill to me. if they want to make abortion illegal, they should just go ahead & do it, & not waste time & taxpayer dollars with mickey mouse stuff like this.
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post #5 of 28
12/6/06 at 11:30am
By requiring that anesthesia be available whether or not the woman wants it will only put additional burdens on the already limited number of doctors who perform abortions in our country. Imagine, malpractice insurance will increase and trained and licensed technicians will be required at each practice whether or not they are actually used. The anti-choice forces have not been able to make abortion illegal, so now are trying to make it inaccessible.
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post #6 of 28
12/6/06 at 12:47pm
Your use of the word 'anti-choice' is as just inflammatory as the word 'pro-abortion'.

I agree with you, though, that they are just trying to make it inaccessible. Until we can scientifically determine when "personhood" actually begins, there will always be controversy over this issue. I'd like to see BOTH sides of the fence (and everyone in-between) put more effort and resources into finding out just when "personhood" actually begins. I think its a good place to start.
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post #7 of 28
12/6/06 at 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt View Post
Your use of the word 'anti-choice' is as just inflammatory as the word 'pro-abortion'.
Yes, I realize it's inflamatory. That's why I use it. Pro-life groups have used language to their advantage (as you pointed out, pro-abortion). And, for me the topic is about much more than abortion or life, put has to do with all the reproductive choices we make in our life.
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post #8 of 28
12/6/06 at 4:44pm
Anytime you see a law like this, the entire point of it is always only to pave the way backwards to pre Roe days. It has nothing to do with preventing pain during an abortion.

They can't just go ahead and make abortion illegal because the majority of the country is pro-choice.

And then, with gay marriage and abortions banned by law, why on earth would anyone vote Republican anymore? Very few people would have a reason to anymore, and they wouldn't be enough to win any elections.
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post #9 of 28
12/6/06 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by catsknowme View Post
Hopefully, at 20 wks. gestation, the baby doesn't feel pain, but is that a risk that the society should take???? How can we be sure that pain isn't felt till 28 weeks?
We get babies delivered here in my NICU at 23 weeks gestation.They do not cry out in pain but they feel discomfort and are given pain reducing medication. When we go prick them in the heel for blood they pull back and make motions/body language of a baby who is in pain (fist clenching and shaking)
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post #10 of 28
12/6/06 at 6:56pm
We also have babies as young as 20 weeks in our NICU, and although they usually don't survive under 23 weeks I can't even begin to fathom why someone would abort that far along- and 28 weeks! That is just insane to me. Even when I was super pro-choice I didn't think abortion was right that far along. I'm not sure how big a deal a bill for offering pain meds for the baby would really be. Like someone else said, if you are willing electively to have an abortion that far along knowing the baby is fully developed and capable of surviving outside the womb, would you really care if that baby felt pain? I'm not speaking about those who have abortions that late for medical reasons, but electively.
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post #11 of 28
12/7/06 at 2:56am
I am pro-choice as well and I too wonder why some one would want to terminate a fetus at such a late stage of their pregnancy. However, I would not want them banned because their will always be a back alley option availble and thats the last thing we need. I would agree withe option of the pain meds option because I think a lot of people would take it.
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post #12 of 28
12/7/06 at 8:23am
The United States doesn't even put criminals to death inhumanely. I don't think pain meds for a fetus who is being terminated is out of line. IMO it greatly outweighs any extra burden it may cause the abortion doctor. I have to say, too, whether one is pro-choice or pro-life, I don't understand why anyone would believe that innocent life should suffer.
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post #13 of 28
12/7/06 at 8:49pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockcat View Post
The United States doesn't even put criminals to death inhumanely. I don't think pain meds for a fetus who is being terminated is out of line. IMO it greatly outweighs any extra burden it may cause the abortion doctor. I have to say, too, whether one is pro-choice or pro-life, I don't understand why anyone would believe that innocent life should suffer.
I couldn't have put it better myself (since I didn't in my first post ). I suppose one more law is tiresome, but if a woman didn't care if the fetus was going to suffer, then the society needs to step in! In a way, it is like child abuse
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post #14 of 28
12/7/06 at 10:39pm
Of course the fetus can feel pain! Many babies are born prematurely...don't they feel pain when they get a shot or are harmed- do they not cry! This is stupid that it's even being debated- whether it is born yet or not, it can feel pain. ( besides that, fetus,which is just another adjective for a human being at a stage in life...people like to use that word to try and make it seem like it's less of a person, but that's just not how it works. It is a human being. Fetus is just a word which describes a person at a stage in development, the same way in which child or adolescent does). Abortion is murder, plain and simple...it kills a human being. And to question if an unborn child can feel pain or not....wow...how low will people go. I am against abortion, and I am against subjecting an innocent child to murder. That is my belief and my personal conviction. How can people not think an unborn child would not feel itself being torn apart and killed in it's mothers womb.......people just don't get it.
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post #15 of 28
12/8/06 at 10:55am
I am Very pro-choice, even though I do believe that the foetus is effectively alive from the point it can survive outside the womb, for however short a time it may be. I would Definetly choose pain relief and I think its wrong to say that women who have an abortion do not care about the foetus/baby and whether or not it feels pain. Having an abortion is often devastating to the woman and if I was forced to make that decision I would at least want to know that the foetus/baby didn't feel any pain.
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post #16 of 28
12/8/06 at 12:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by catsknowme View Post
I couldn't have put it better myself (since I didn't in my first post ). I suppose one more law is tiresome, but if a woman didn't care if the fetus was going to suffer, then the society needs to step in! In a way, it is like child abuse
as far as i'm concerned, abortion is also child abuse, just like murder would fall under that umbrella. but i don't think that's the point of this law - that's why i think it's pointless.
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post #17 of 28
12/8/06 at 9:18pm
I dont agree with abortion period. But I definatly think that doing it on a baby that is over 15 weeks is horrible. Doing it on a baby that is 20 weeks or say 27 weeks? The baby could live outside the mother! That would be like me going and having an abortion now. I dunno how anyone could do it. How could you carry a child that long and then have an abortion?
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post #18 of 28
12/9/06 at 12:15pm
This law has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the fetus will feel pain during an abortion. The people who pushed it through don't actually care that they would be preventing fetal pain.

What they do care about is looking good to their anti-abortion constituents, like "look, we're one step closer to outlawing abortion now, please vote for me again in two years and I'll do some other trivial thing like this".
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post #19 of 28
12/11/06 at 8:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
This law has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the fetus will feel pain during an abortion. The people who pushed it through don't actually care that they would be preventing fetal pain.

What they do care about is looking good to their anti-abortion constituents, like "look, we're one step closer to outlawing abortion now, please vote for me again in two years and I'll do some other trivial thing like this".
You are probably right, but IMO their motive is irrelevent if it makes the fetus feel less pain.
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post #20 of 28
12/11/06 at 8:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by laureen227 View Post
as far as i'm concerned, abortion is also child abuse, just like murder would fall under that umbrella. but i don't think that's the point of this law - that's why i think it's pointless.
When a shelter kills cats, wouldn't you want them to do it in the most humane way whether or not you believe they should be killed?
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post #21 of 28
12/11/06 at 9:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom View Post
This law has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the fetus will feel pain during an abortion. The people who pushed it through don't actually care that they would be preventing fetal pain.

What they do care about is looking good to their anti-abortion constituents, like "look, we're one step closer to outlawing abortion now, please vote for me again in two years and I'll do some other trivial thing like this".
that's the main reason i think it's such a pointless law. i really resent being treated like a stupid person, which is what this law is doing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockcat View Post
You are probably right, but IMO their motive is irrelevent if it makes the fetus feel less pain.
When a shelter kills cats, wouldn't you want them to do it in the most humane way whether or not you believe they should be killed?
it's not that i don't think they should be humane - it's that the reason for the law is manipulative. i think that probably very few women have abortions this late, anyway [i'd like to see numbers]. those that would don't have much respect for life anyway, since a baby that developed could probably survive outside the womb. i'd be surprised if they chose to take the 'less pain' option. & the law makes it an option, not a requirement, like when euthanizing animals.
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post #22 of 28
12/11/06 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by laureen227 View Post
that's the main reason i think it's such a pointless law. i really resent being treated like a stupid person, which is what this law is doing.

it's not that i don't think they should be humane - it's that the reason for the law is manipulative. i think that probably very few women have abortions this late, anyway [i'd like to see numbers]. those that would don't have much respect for life anyway, since a baby that developed could probably survive outside the womb. i'd be surprised if they chose to take the 'less pain' option. & the law makes it an option, not a requirement, like when euthanizing animals.
I hope you didn't mean that those of us who agree with the law are stupid people.

Sometimes we have to take baby steps in order to make changes. Actually, the "option" part bothers me too. I agree it should be a requirement.

BTW, a friend's niece's baby was just born 3 months early. He's hanging in there, but needs prayers. Any that you can send his way would be greatly appreciated.

As far as abortion, I have kept quiet for a long time because it seems that so many people on this site think that pro-choice is all about women's rights. I am all for women's rights, but IMO, women's rights stop at the point when they infringe on someone else's right to live.

I am not saying that those who have had an abortion are bad people. They took an option available to them by law at a very desperate time. I understand that making abortion illegal would cause some desperate women to search for other life-threatening ways to end their pregnancy, but I also believe that there would be far less abortions.
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post #23 of 28
12/11/06 at 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockcat View Post
I hope you didn't mean that those of us who agree with the law are stupid people.
no, i meant the politicians are trying to manipulate pro-lifers by making this law. in other words, like Zissou'sMom said,
Quote:
What they do care about is looking good to their anti-abortion constituents, like "look, we're one step closer to outlawing abortion now, please vote for me again in two years and I'll do some other trivial thing like this".
to me, this is an attempt at manipulation by the lawmakers. though you approve of the bill, which doesn't make you stupid, that doesn't mean they aren't trying to put something over on us.
i guess i'm just really skeptical...
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post #24 of 28
12/12/06 at 11:04am
Rockcat you make some very good points and your niece's baby is in my thoughts.
I think that if abortions were outlawed there would be Alot more desperate teenagers and young mothers. While I know that many young women can cope, including some on this site, there would also be many who would not and would be worse off as a result. England has a problem with teen mums whose parents were often young mums themselves. I went to a girls school which had at least 2 confirmed pregnancies in my year alone.
Back On Topic
I dislike the way that women who have abortions are treated like heartless monsters, even on this thread. Just because a woman has an abortion doesn't mean that she doesn't care if the unborn baby/foetus feels pain. Women who have abortions should not be equated be equated to cold blooded murderers. Obviously no woman would wait out of choice until just before the cut off point.
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post #25 of 28
12/12/06 at 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cata_mint View Post
I dislike the way that women who have abortions are treated like heartless monsters, even on this thread. Just because a woman has an abortion doesn't mean that she doesn't care if the unborn baby/foetus feels pain. Women who have abortions should not be equated be equated to cold blooded murderers. Obviously no woman would wait out of choice until just before the cut off point.
i'm unsubscribing to this thread. evidently a dissenting opinion is not welcome. i was criticizing politicians, & have twice basically been accused of criticizing people who like the bill, or mothers who wait until late to abort. forget it - obviously, you people aren't paying attention to what i'm actually trying to say, & i'm tired of trying to find a new way to put it. let me say this - i never, ever stated anywhere that i thought women who chose to abort were cold blooded monsters. i have stated that it is my belief that abortion is murder. however, i don't even believe all murderers are cold blooded monsters.
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post #26 of 28
12/12/06 at 11:30am
"if realizing that she's ending a life doesn't bother her, why would causing pain?"
I'm really sorry I upset you. That wasn't my intention at all. I just feel very strongly about this and the above comment, along with others, really riled me. I swear my comments weren't just directed at you.
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post #27 of 28
12/12/06 at 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cata_mint View Post
Rockcat you make some very good points and your niece's baby is in my thoughts.
Thank you so much. The baby is actually a friend's niece.
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post #28 of 28
12/12/06 at 7:59pm
Thread Starter 
For the record, I suffered a miscarriage at around 20 weeks, and the poor fetus (it was my baby) was so desperately trying to breathe, to live. Reading the article brought such painful memories back - one of the most difficult things was to see it suffer, and then I entertained the thought that I should put it out of its misery ( I was raised around animals, including livestock, and one of the basic tenets of my upbringing was to always put the well-being of the animals before mine) but I couldn't, just couldn't - it was my baby.
Anything that would ease the suffering of a baby being aborted is welcomed by me. I think that if another woman had the same experience, or had shared mine, would have some insight into what it's like for the baby...
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