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Orange Marbled Bengal?

post #1 of 64
Thread Starter 
I saw an orange marbled Bengal. I've never seen or heard of one before. Is there a reason why they aren't more common? Or are they not uncommon, and I just wasn't aware of it?
post #2 of 64
They arent a regulation color ... Red bengals show up from time to time but they are pet quality and could only be shown in HHP class....

I have a suspected red marble bengal cross
post #3 of 64
Is it a true red or a rufous?

Rufous coloring in bengals is very common, desirable by many and accepted by the breed standard, although they will still be refered to as "browns"
post #4 of 64
Thread Starter 
I'm about to run out, but I will post a pic when I return or tomorrow. Pray that I'm able to figure it out. It sure looks orange to me. It is a nice looking cat, the color just seemed so unusual to me. Thanks for the responses.
post #5 of 64
Thread Starter 
o.k., well I'm going to try to post this pic. Here goes nothing ----------


http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...angebengal.jpg
post #6 of 64
I am no expert but I would say like my Zoey red

Nial???
post #7 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
I am no expert but I would say like my Zoey red

Nial???
I've not seen a pic of Zoey in awhile. Can you post one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by siameseohio View Post
o.k., well I'm going to try to post this pic. Here goes nothing ----------


http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...angebengal.jpg
Definitely looks like a red. Very uncommon in bengals. Very pretty cat, but I wouldn't want that coloring in my lines.
post #8 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
I am no expert but I would say like my Zoey red

Nial???
Sharky,

Do you have a picture of Zoey you could share?
post #9 of 64
Where did you get your "red" bengal? Looks like it might have been an accident litter where one of the bengals bred to a red tabby domestic?
post #10 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Where did you get your "red" bengal? Looks like it might have been an accident litter where one of the bengals bred to a red tabby domestic?

Are you asking me or Sharky? I don't have a red bengal, or any color bengal for that matter.
post #11 of 64
I actually saw some red spotted Bengal's in person. They were trying to tell me that they were worth more than the brown spotted Bengal, because they told me these colour Bengal's were more rare, and had better markings. They weren't mixed with a tabby cat, they were actual Bengal's with papers and all, and the breeder wanted $2500 for each of them. They had an entire litter of them.
post #12 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopeHacker View Post
I actually saw some red spotted Bengal's in person. They were trying to tell me that they were worth more than the brown spotted Bengal, because they told me these colour Bengal's were more rare, and had better markings.
That sounds kind of scandalous. I would think they'd cost less because they are pet quality and can't be shown. I could be wrong. Nevertheless, I think they are some beautiful animals.



Quote:
Originally Posted by HopeHacker View Post
They weren't mixed with a tabby cat, they were actual Bengal's with papers and all, and the breeder wanted $2500 for each of them. They had an entire litter of them.
From my understanding, the above Bengal isn't a tabby mix either and has it's papers as well.
post #13 of 64
I dont have a camera but one day I will get one of her /.//

She looks like your kitty only with white on the front
post #14 of 64
That cat looks like a genetically red cat. A highly rufoused 'red' bengal would look very similar, but would have a black tail tip (and is genetically brown).

Heres a highly rufoused brown spotted tabby(BST) bengal:

http://www.uniqueprintscattery.com/more_dinari_pics.htm

They're both beautiful cats, but if that cat in the pic you posted is genetically red it wouldn't be able to compete. Rufousing is desired by a lot of breeders, but not everyone because they tend to 'fade' more than others.
post #15 of 64
Siamese,

I thought you said you had the cat in question - was it a friend's of yours? Where did you take the picture?
post #16 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Siamese,

I thought you said you had the cat in question - was it a friend's of yours? Where did you take the picture?
It is not a friend's or mines. I didn't take the picture. Unfortunately, I've never seen a Bengal in person. Although I plan on attending a show in Ohio in the beginning of the year. By saying "I saw an orange Bengal", I was refering to the picture. Someone sent the picture to me.
post #17 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt View Post
Rufousing is desired by SOME, but not everyone because they tend to 'fade' more than others.
Fade? Forgive my ignorance, but do Bengals fade with age or something?

By the way, thanks for the pick tiffanyjbt. I can see the simularity in the coloring, but there definately is a difference.
post #18 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by siameseohio View Post
Fade? Forgive my ignorance, but do Bengals fade with age or something?

By the way, thanks for the pick tiffanyjbt. I can see the simularity in the coloring, but there definately is a difference.
I think most cats get darker as they age and there is less contrast in their specific patterns. This is seen in siamese cats too. Its not so much that they fade in color. The background color gets darker and the pattern color gets lighter (falls out). The more this happens, the more the stark contrast is lost. Because the background color in rufoused bengals is a lot closer to the pattern color, they 'seem' to fade (or loose contrast) a lot quicker (think seal point meezer vs. chocolate point meezer). But this is not true for all rufoused cats (of course, 'cause then breeding would be simple and I'd do it!)

If you look at my bengal, you can see how even over the course of a few weeks his pattern color is 'falling out' on his side. This is desireable to an extent because he's a 'tri-color' bengal which means eventually the color inside the pattern will be different from the background and the pattern. The color inside his pattern will be 'rufoused' and will look the same color as that on his face and paws.

At 1 week:


At 4 weeks:


At 11 weeks:

post #19 of 64
Thread Starter 
o.k. o.k., I surrender! He is to cute and I can barely stand it. I had to read several times what you wrote because I was occupied with how beautiful he is.

Thanks for the explanation and the Meezer analogy. That helped.
post #20 of 64
LOL! I just e-mailed his breeder about how I can't stop looking at his pictures!

You're very welcome. I'm still learning myself, so it helps me to write this stuff 'out loud' as well.
post #21 of 64
Tiffany, are you getting your bengal from Pam? I recall you mentioning a breeder in Montana.
post #22 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals View Post
Tiffany, are you getting your bengal from Pam? I recall you mentioning a breeder in Montana.
Not quite, but close Ares' dad is Cheetahsden Sxnu of Rockymeountain (one of the most gorgeous marbles I've ever seen!) I got Ares from Stacy. Do you know her?
post #23 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt View Post
Not quite, but close Ares' dad is Cheetahsden Sxnu of Rockymeountain (one of the most gorgeous marbles I've ever seen!) I got Ares from Stacy. Do you know her?
No I don't know Stacy, but I've heard of her cattery and seen pictures of Sxnu. He's definitely drop dead gorgeous. Congrats on getting one of his babies.
post #24 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals View Post
No I don't know Stacy, but I've heard of her cattery and seen pictures of Sxnu. He's definitely drop dead gorgeous. Congrats on getting one of his babies.
You've heard good things I hope! Thanks, I really lucked out getting him. His head looks a LOT like papa's too. I can't wait til he gets home! Have I said that yet?
post #25 of 64
Why wouldn't 'they' (not sure if they is the breeders or the cat assns) want bengals like that orange marbled one? Is it because someone decided what the accepted colors are? I can kinda see the black bengals not being as accepted because you can't see the markings, but you can sure see the marbling on that orange kitty! I'm just asking out of curiosity. It is a very pretty cat, so do you think someday if enough breeders petition or something it could become an accepted color? How does stuff like that get changed, or does it ever? I ask a lot of questions don't I? It is just so interesting!!!!!
post #26 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telynn View Post
Why wouldn't 'they' (not sure if they is the breeders or the cat assns) want bengals like that orange marbled one? Is it because someone decided what the accepted colors are? I can kinda see the black bengals not being as accepted because you can't see the markings, but you can sure see the marbling on that orange kitty! I'm just asking out of curiosity. It is a very pretty cat, so do you think someday if enough breeders petition or something it could become an accepted color? How does stuff like that get changed, or does it ever? I ask a lot of questions don't I? It is just so interesting!!!!!

This issue came up not long ago on a bengals e-mail list. Rufousing is desired for a lot of breeders (like the cat in the link) but the 'orange' marble in the original pictures is not a genetically 'brown' cat like a rufoused cat would be. Bengals come in a lot of colors (black (melanistic), blue, red, tortie, chocolate, etc.) These are not a part of the breed standard though. In TICA, the breeders pretty much decide what will be included in the standard and what will not. Keep in mind that the bengal breed is relatively new when compared to other breeds, so the standard is still 'under construction'. Initially only Brown Spotted Tabbies were accepted. Then a lot of people (including the breeds founder Jean Mill) pushed for marbles to be accepted. Then snows and most recently silvers (and thank goodness that happend, because if it hadn't, we here wouldn't be graced with the presence of lovely Jack!) So its possible that 'orange' bengals could be added to the standard, but there will undoubtedly be a LOT of resistance among current breeders (as was evidenced on that list I mentioned). But marbles, snows and silvers all faced some pretty strong opposition as well (and they still do to this day).

One of the main goals (if not THE main goal) of the bengal breed is to reproduce the look of a 'small forest dwelling cat' with the temperament of a domestic cat. Since you won't find many 'orange' small forest dwelling cats in the wild, thats one major strike against it. For marbles there is the marble cat, the clouded leopard, the ocelot, the king cheetah, etc. For snows and silvers, there are the snow leopards. Theres even a push for melanistics being accepted because of the black panthers.

Another strike against orange cats is that it may be VERY difficult to prove what benefits it will bring to the genetic pool of the bengal lines today. Again, with marbles the argument was that marbles would produce bigger rosettes (large open spotting) and better horizontal flow in the spotted cats. For silvers, the idea is that they bring in clearer coats (like the 'goldens' which is a whole other topic). These ideas are strongly debated, but they did help to get them accepted into the breed standard (and boy am I glad!)

You're right, its VERY interesting. I'm not a breeder and I'm a n00b to the bengal world, but I've been reading and asking tons of questions on the breed non-stop for some months now. Nial (Kai Bengals) has been doing this much longer than I have, and he can come in and correct me where I'm wrong (which may well be the case ) Anyhow, ask away, because the more you ask, the more we all learn!
post #27 of 64
Thread Starter 
Once again totally facinating. It looks like red/orange Bengals have an uphill battle.

Since they aren't able to be shown, it totally makes since why someone wouldn't want to add them into a breeding program. However for a pet, it really wouldn't matter. I guess if I breed bengals (which obviously I don't, nor am I remotely qualified to do), I'd probably steer away from them as well.

With that said, I think they are beautiful animals, and all the more interesting because in all of my googling about Bengals, I've never seen any until now.
post #28 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt View Post
This issue came up not long ago on a bengals e-mail list. Rufousing is desired for a lot of breeders (like the cat in the link) but the 'orange' marble in the original pictures is not a genetically 'brown' cat like a rufoused cat would be. Bengals come in a lot of colors (black (melanistic), blue, red, tortie, chocolate, etc.) These are not a part of the breed standard though. In TICA, the breeders pretty much decide what will be included in the standard and what will not. Keep in mind that the bengal breed is relatively new when compared to other breeds, so the standard is still 'under construction'. Initially only Brown Spotted Tabbies were accepted. Then a lot of people (including the breeds founder Jean Mill) pushed for marbles to be accepted. Then snows and most recently silvers (and thank goodness that happend, because if it hadn't, we here wouldn't be graced with the presence of lovely Jack!) So its possible that 'orange' bengals could be added to the standard, but there will undoubtedly be a LOT of resistance among current breeders (as was evidenced on that list I mentioned). But marbles, snows and silvers all faced some pretty strong opposition as well (and they still do to this day).

One of the main goals (if not THE main goal) of the bengal breed is to reproduce the look of a 'small forest dwelling cat' with the temperament of a domestic cat. Since you won't find many 'orange' small forest dwelling cats in the wild, thats one major strike against it. For marbles there is the marble cat, the clouded leopard, the ocelot, the king cheetah, etc. For snows and silvers, there are the snow leopards. Theres even a push for melanistics being accepted because of the black panthers.

Another strike against orange cats is that it may be VERY difficult to prove what benefits it will bring to the genetic pool of the bengal lines today. Again, with marbles the argument was that marbles would produce bigger rosettes (large open spotting) and better horizontal flow in the spotted cats. For silvers, the idea is that they bring in clearer coats (like the 'goldens' which is a whole other topic). These ideas are strongly debated, but they did help to get them accepted into the breed standard (and boy am I glad!)

You're right, its VERY interesting. I'm not a breeder and I'm a n00b to the bengal world, but I've been reading and asking tons of questions on the breed non-stop for some months now. Nial (Kai Bengals) has been doing this much longer than I have, and he can come in and correct me where I'm wrong (which may well be the case ) Anyhow, ask away, because the more you ask, the more we all learn!
Well said Tiffany.....I have nothing significant to add, other than I truly believe we would not see the ultra rosetted, knock your socks off spotted bengals we have today, if it weren't for marbles. We've always had marbles in our program..it only makes sense!
I also believe the silver genes are helping with the "goldens". But I do have what I believe is a true golden boy out of a brown spotted X brown marbled mating. No silvers in the lines.
I think the next decade in bengal development is going to be very interesting and fun. Especially if we can start doing genetic testing at a reasonable cost.
post #29 of 64
Who's your "golden boy" Nial?

I think its already fun and exciting (can't you tell) but I agree that its going to get even more fun and exciting and I want to tag along for the ride.

I would love to breed cats, but I don't have the time at all. I also have way too many other 'projects' to work on, and I don't know if I could handle the spraying or the losses... oh, and giving kittens to their new homes would be an issue for me because I KNOW I'm too selfish to let them all go.

So instead I live vicariously through people like you and Gaye Keep up the good work!
post #30 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt View Post
Who's your "golden boy" Nial?
His name is Sudden Impact. I don't have an up-to-date photo of him that shows off his colors in natural light, but here is an older photo of him at about 3 months.
He's 5.5 months now and one of our show cats. In fact he's going with us to the Alabama show with Jack. This will be his second show, we are expecting him to do well.
This picture is good but it doesn't show his amazing golden background as well as I'd like. You'd have to see him in person....his pelt and coloring is amazing. He's out of Regent X Penny(the marble girl). Marbles produce the best spotted kittens!

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