Anyone up for a good debate??

lotsocats

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I went too far with that statement! Saddam is definately a threat to Israel and is even more of a threat to his own Kurdish people. Too bad that the last time we went to war with Iraq, we didn't support the anti-Hussein factions once we left the country. We had a real opportunity to oust the man, but completely blew it!
 

imagyne

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Lemme see if I can put these scattered thought to some semblence of order, I've read so many good points about this!!

As a military man (soon to retire), with a son who is soon to be in the gulf (I hate it) let me offer these points.

Yes, Iraq funds, helps, etc support terrorists activities, yes, they do have the capability to not only launch attacks on her neighbors but very probably on other countries as well. For that very reason alone, since noone else seems to want to do anything about it we should go in and kill him.

It could be done by assination, but lets face it, a good war is good for America... happens every time... economy improves, blah blah blah. Besides lets not kid ourselves, war is driven by Money. In this case it's oil, even if we don't need it now.

Is it political? You bet, it always is and the military is the means to an end.... everything else is just gravy

Personally, I think we should/should have made a parking lot out of iraq long ago. At the very least taken out SH when we had the chance, but, as always we never do things when we have the chance.

As far as President Bush not being a military man.... well, i'm thinkin' we ought to be glad he's not. Could be that because of that his decisions may be a little bit more sound. 'Course I could be wrong.
 

lotsocats

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Originally posted by Imagyne
As far as President Bush not being a military man.... well, i'm thinkin' we ought to be glad he's not. Could be that because of that his decisions may be a little bit more sound. 'Course I could be wrong.
I find it interesting that the politicians who are pushing this war have never served in the military, whereas those who are trying to slow down and think rationally (e.g. Colin Powell) have long military careers. Hmmmmmm.....I wonder whether any of these men have sons who are of the right age to draft into service.

I can see it now... "Well, son, I know you are getting ready to die a horrific death in battle, but it was really important to me that Mitch McConnell from Kentucky was re-elected and he wouldn't have been without all of the war rhetoric. So, know that you will die for a good cause. I hope you don't suffer too much. Love ya' son."

I know that the economy will improve if we go to war, but I'd rather eat beans every day and live in a homeless shelter than have my nephew die in Iraq!
 

bren.1

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Saddam is definitely a threat, but the cost of an all-out war against him is in the billions. I agree with Hissy, I think special forces could take him out at a lesser financial and human cost. He does support terrorism and that is a problem.

But what about Saudi Arabia? How can it escape everyone's notice that so many Al-Quaeda members are Saudis, including bin Ladin himself? The Saudis have a terrible record as far as human rights, but we don't punish them like we do Cuba and China.

Regarding random searches of cars, the protection against search and seizure only applies to your house. The police are justified in pulling over and searching cars, from what I remember of Constitutional Law class. Not saying it's acceptable to those among us who are law-abiding, but it is allowed.
 

ldg

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Brenda - I never studied law, so thanks for that info. You've piqued my curiousity and I'm going to have to dig now!


But Ken (Imagyne), should this war come at the cost of alienating our allies and operating outside of the U.N.? (Lotsocats point about "Rogue" nation status).

It could be done by assination, but lets face it, a good war is good for America... happens every time... economy improves, blah blah blah.
I do not agree. Was World War I a "good" war? If you invested in the stock market just prior to war in 1913, with market ups and downs, it would have taken until 1921 to earn your money back (based on the performance of the Dow Jones Industrial Average, as are all references to stock market performance after this).

The stock market fell apart during the first three years of World War II. True, if you invested in the market when the U.S. entered the war in 1942 you would have almost doubled your money by 1945, but I don't know how to separate out the benefits of Roosevelt's "New Deal." On the other hand, if you invested in the market in 1944, it would have taken you until 1948 to earn your money back.

Was Vietnam a "good" war? If you invested in the stock market 1965 after troops landed, it took until 1967 to make your money back. And while the market generally rose through 1972, if you didn't pull your money out in 1972, it wasn't until 1975 that you were "whole" again on your 1965 investment.

I think that "war is good for the economy" is a misnomer. The market didn't like the prospect of war when we last went to Iraq. It was down in 1990 as we moved troops to Saudi Arabia. The market rose in 1991 and after because it was a short, quick war and we were in front of a massive global technology build out that lasted just over a decade.
 

katl8e

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Fact: Saddam Hussein is a megalomaniac, in control of weapons of mass destruction, who has not and will not hesitate to use them.

Fact: He has scoffed and thumbed his nose at UN sanctions and weapons inspectors, for years.

Fact: The UN is a toothless, gutless bunch of hand-wringers. They want American money, technology and lifestyles but don't want to pay the price.

Fact: This is the richest, most powerful nation on Earth. It is time to say, "Enough!" and take out these terrorists once and for all. So what, if it p!&&*& off the UN. What are they going to do? Pass another toothless resolution?
 

sydney the kid

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This is not an easy matter to comment ... . However , in my opinion , a war is NEVER a solution ! Too many innoscent people get involved here .. . I think negotion is the only way to put an end to this ... ! I also think that it was a huge mistake the armies didn't get those nasty guys during the previous war ; they were so close !!
Now they have to start all over again . I am so horrified of all those countries getting involved in this ... !
PLEASE , NO WAR ..............
 

lady hawk

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I am not for war, but at times it is the lesser of the two evils.
Peace at all costs, only works when all parties have the same view.
When you are faced with a threat like Suddam who is a known supporter of terror, I am afraid there is only one way out.
I really do not want to wait for the big Mushroom before we do something.
I guess it comes down to choices,remove the threat , yes there will be innocent deaths, or wait for him to remove us.
As a mother of three I hate the idea of asking other mothers to sacrifice their children to keep us safe, My son will be going as well if war breaks out.
But freedom is not free.
Tish +
 

hissy

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Another thing that really scares me is when this happens, and I am so afraid it is so close to occurring-what happens in our country with all the terrorists "sleeper cells" we keep hearing about? What is to stop them from activating all at once and slaughtering thousands of innocent americans, who probably don't want a war in the first place? Until 9/11 I never even gave this a second thought- but now? Again, it is a decision none of us can stop because it is political in nature.
 

valanhb

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Personally, I don't think anyone here wants war in any way, shape or form. Even the most adamant, I'm sure, would prefer a peaceful solution.

Did anyone else catch Pres. Bush's speech last night? I thought it was a good speech, he said everything he was supposed to say. It seems he is at least going to let the UN try their thing one more time.

One thing I thought was interesting that he said in a different statement to the UN: "Are you going to be a League of Nations or the United Nations?" Ouch. (History refresher: The League of Nations was formed after WWI, but basically turned a blind eye toward Hitler even when he was building his army against the treaties and started invading "minor" (in their eyes) European countries.)
 

ldg

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As Lady Hawk (Tish) so eloquently wrote:

I am not for war, but at times it is the lesser of the two evils.
Sydney the Kid - I can't agree that "war is NEVER a solution." You live in Belgium. Would you really want to be living in Hitler's empire right now, with all the jews and gypsies dead, no cultural diversity allowed, and all the mentally retarded or physically handicapped children sterilized?

I thought Bush's speach was insipid. He left the door open to no particular time frame. "We will do what we need to do, when we need to do it."

As an adult I have become far more conservative than I ever was before. But I really can't stand Bush, and I think he's very scary. There are competent, brilliant republicans out there. How we wound up with this one, I simply can't fathom. This seed fell far from the family tree. If I have to listen to him say "nuke-ular" one more time, I'm going to rip my hair out. It is, after all, nuclear. One would think our President, in charge of the button, would know how, at the very least, to pronounce it.
 

okeefecl

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If I have to listen to him say "nuke-ular" one more time, I'm going to rip my hair out. It is, after all, nuclear. One would think our President, in charge of the button, would know how, at the very least, to pronounce it.
Laurie,

I agree with you on this point 100%. I was watching the speech, and found myself yelling at the TV "nook-lear! not nuke-ular". It distracted me so much, I didn't catch much else.

I'll admit, I'm a liberal Democrat who didn't vote for Bush. I think a war at this time would be wrong. I do think, however, that the government should re-allow covert action to get rid of Saddam, as well as bin Laden.

Christy
 

ldg

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..and despite having generally voted republican the last number of years, I didn't vote for Bush either. I've always been "independent." I don't go for the party-thing. I vote issues.
 

lady hawk

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Originally posted by valanhb
One thing I thought was interesting that he said in a different statement to the UN: "Are you going to be a League of Nations or the United Nations?" Ouch.
Ouch it might be, but they have to wake up, at the rate they are going they are more like a debating team then a League of Nations with world wide respnsibility.

His speech should have presented enough evidence to them , so they can see the potential threat if they do not disarm him.

I am still praying that they find a peaceful way to resolve all this.

Tish +
 

Anne

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I so agree with Lady Hawk - in this case war now seems to be the lesser of two evils. If he is not stopped now - he will get nuclear weapons and soon.

Lotsocats - while our government is trying to keep a low profile and keep Israel out of the game as much as possible, I think we are one country within SH's reach that supports an American initiative now.

Don't get me wrong - I dread the coming war! I remember those long nights of scuds attacks only too well. I remember the horror of my little 5 years old sister who was too terrified of the gas mask to wear it and my two little brothers huddled together in the corner of the room wearing their masks. I remember waking up to the sound of the sirens and running in my jammies to the sealed room with the rest of my family. I remember standing outside on our porch calling out for one of my cats (I would never go into the sealed room without them) while my parents are shouting at me to leave the darn cat outside and get into the room so they can seal it up (I didn't by the way, I went to get some cheese to tempt the kitty in). Ever since then I have nightmares about trying to contain my cats in a carrier and save them from danger.


So, you see I'm not happy about the coming war. Not one bit. This time around I have a baby to take care of and a husband who will not be with us, but in GHQ in the heart of Tel Aviv, right where the scuds are trying to hit. One thing that is constantly on my mind these past few weeks is that my gas mask is not in order (the filters need changing every couple of years) and what's worse, Ron doesn't have the baby kit. We need to go and get everything - but the queue at the distribution line is just awful...


And yet, I know that whatever we have to deal with now is less worse than what we'll have to deal with in a year or so if Saddam isn't stopped now. He WILL get nuclear weapons by then. And then what? Then the UN, the US or anyone else can do nothing about him anymore. He'll be holding a very large part of the world hostage (my personal hourse included). Then he can really do what he likes, he can conquer neighboring countries like Kuwait, get even richer with the oil and sponsor even more terrorists activities. Don't be fooled - eventually everyone's going to get hurt - including destinations in the US as well as Europe! I think Al Qauida has already proved that nowhere is safe when Western civilization is attacked


So, I say, we have no choice but to go to war now. I hope the rest of the world understands that as well and joins in.

Just hold on until I get Ron's baby chemical attack kit ready, ok?
 

valanhb

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I saw an interesting graphic on the news last night that we have 17 other countries backing us if/when it comes to military force. Of course, some of the big guns are notoriously missing, but there is support from more than just Britain and Israel on this one.

I was called on one of those random polls from one of the news stations here. The question they asked was "Do you think America should invade Iraq?" I don't know how anyone remotely familiar with the situation can answer that Yes or No.
 

lotsocats

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Wow! That was so moving. It really means a lot that someone who lived through the scud missle attacks and all of the terror related to the potential gassing of your two-legged and four-legged family members is in support of the war. Also, I have seen several interviews with Iraqi citizens, all of whom are in support of an attack by the USA.

I am just so afraid that the reason we are talking war is to get US Americans to vote for certain candidates. I don't want my nephew to die so that some politician will be elected!

Also....I am afraid that we will go in and kick butt, but then abandon the people like we did last time we went to war with Iraq. We had the perfect opportunity to help the people overthrow Hussein, and just turned our back on them (leaving many Kurds and others to be murdered because we abandoned them.)

What a scary and distressing time!
 
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dtolle

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I started this thread quite a few weeks ago, with the hopes of raising some good debate issues. I actually never voiced my opinion though, I really wanted to see what others thought.

I am 100% for the attack of Iraq. I think Bush is doing an outstanding job, he is trying to prevent something much worse than any war could produce. I don't buy the whole notion of him doing it in regards to the elections, or because of the oil. Saddam Hussein is as crazy as Hitler was, an out of control, homicidal maniac. He needs to be stopped NOW, not later. When will the American People say its ok? When a nuke goes off in Israel, or here on our homeland?? When will they say its ok to use "force", not until someone in their family loses their life due to a terrorist act?

His speech the other night was magnificent in my opinion. And no offense to any of you, but just because he can't say "nuclear" correctly doesn't really justify anything other than perhaps its a tongue twister for him.

I say go in, oust him, and get a good gov't in there. One that is a democracy, one that will abide by the UN rules, and one that nobody has to be in fear that one morning they may wake up and find the half the world has been blown up by the almighty Hussein.
I have many friends in the US military. Nobody wants to see lives lost from our military, but when they go and sign those papers to join, they are agreeing to die for their country to protect others. I would rather see lives lost now in a war, than WW3 come down the pike and the loss of life would be much higher
Not to mention, god only knows what Hussein has up his sleeve, such as sellling Al-Queda terrorists some of his high tech weapons, and that could cause something that would make 9/11 look like popcorn.
 

katl8e

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Daniela is right. Just how far do we let Hussein go? Do WE, at TCS, want to see our friend Anne and her family become victims of a chemical or biological attack? If allowed to remain in power, that is, exactly what will happen.

It is all well and good to talk in the abstract but, Anne is someone that we KNOW. Most of us have never met face-to-face but we know about each others families, jobs, homes, pets, dreams and aspirations. When one of us has a problem, we post it here, knowing that SOMEONE out there cares.
 
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