TheCatSite.com › Forums › Cat Breeds, Breeding and Showing › Showing and Ethical Breeding › Question for Bengal Breeders
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Question for Bengal Breeders

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
I was wondering can you predict what markings/color kittens you will have by looking at the parents? People who breed Siamese can tell you what colors the kittens will be before the kittens come by looking at the queen and stud. Is it the same with Bengals?

There is a particular Bengal breeder whose site I frequent because I absolutely love her/his (?) animals. They have a planned litter with my favorite queen and stud! Right now I don't even know if it is feasible for me to get one, there are several obstacles, although I'd love too.

I just read what I typed--There is a particular Bengal breeder whose site I frequent . . . . . . Geez Oh well, I'm a crazy cat person, what can I say.

Thanks for any insight.
post #2 of 22
To some extent the answer is yes. A few examples are these:

I have a stud cat, who is homozygous for spots. I know if I mate him to any female, regardless of her pattern, I will get all spotted kittens in the litter.

The silver gene is dominant and if I mate a silver boy to a brown girl, I should get at least 50% silver kittens. A silver to silver breeding should produce all silvers.

Marbling is a recessive gene, so a marble to marble mating should guarantee all marble kittens.

Often we are mating brown spotted to marbles and unless the spotted parent is homozygous for spots, it's a crap shoot what the kitten's pattern will be.
Spotted to spotted matings often result in marble kittens being born, because both parents will carry the marble gene.
post #3 of 22
Thread Starter 
Thanks Kai Bengals, that answers my question.
post #4 of 22
Kai,

Got a related question as I'll be getting an ocicat which also deals with spots vs. classic (marble) pattern. At what point would spotted to spotted be almost all spotted and not the classic pattern?

I'm thinking that when the ocicats don't allow the outcrosses any more and you just have spotted cats being bred, eventually you should be getting a very high percent of spotted. True?
post #5 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Kai,

Got a related question as I'll be getting an ocicat which also deals with spots vs. classic (marble) pattern. At what point would spotted to spotted be almost all spotted and not the classic pattern?

I'm thinking that when the ocicats don't allow the outcrosses any more and you just have spotted cats being bred, eventually you should be getting a very high percent of spotted. True?
I don't breed cats. I probably never will, but I find genetics in general very facinating.

The spotting gene is not the same (or rather, dominant to) as the classic gene. In fact, with cats like the egyptian mau and ocicat, both genes are favored. That is, a spotted cat with a circular flow to their pattern.

I'll let Kai explain the homo/heterozygous stuff though, 'cause I confused myself when I tried to type it just now

I feel I should clarify, because it sounds like I'm contradicting what Kai wrote and I'm not. A striped cat is the recessive to a spotted cat. Marble/classic striping pattern is recessive to the Mackerel/tiger striping pattern, but they are both striped patterns. The latter is a vertical flow which is not a desired pattern in the bengal breed. The classic (marble) pattern is the only acceptable striping in the breed standard.

Genetics is REALLY confusing... I'll stop typing now.
post #6 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt View Post
I don't breed cats. I probably never will, but I find genetics in general very facinating.

The spotting gene is not the same (or rather, dominant to) as the classic gene. In fact, with cats like the egyptian mau and ocicat, both genes are favored. That is, a spotted cat with a circular flow to their pattern.

I'll let Kai explain the homo/heterozygous stuff though, 'cause I confused myself when I tried to type it just now

I feel I should clarify, because it sounds like I'm contradicting what Kai wrote and I'm not. A striped cat is the recessive to a spotted cat. Marble/classic striping pattern is recessive to the Mackerel/tiger striping pattern, but they are both striped patterns. The latter is a vertical flow which is not a desired pattern in the bengal breed. The classic (marble) pattern is the only acceptable striping in the breed standard.

Genetics is REALLY confusing... I'll stop typing now.
Maybe it is just to late for me to be on here. I'm going to get some sleep and read all of this tomorrow. My comprehension just isn't what it used to be.
post #7 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Kai,

Got a related question as I'll be getting an ocicat which also deals with spots vs. classic (marble) pattern. At what point would spotted to spotted be almost all spotted and not the classic pattern?

I'm thinking that when the ocicats don't allow the outcrosses any more and you just have spotted cats being bred, eventually you should be getting a very high percent of spotted. True?
In theory that should be true. But as long as that recessive classic gene is in the pedigree somewhere, there's a chance it'll show up sometime. You do increase your odds of only throwing spotted if you're using cats that have been throwing only spots for several generations.

We recently mated a spotted male to a marble female. The male's sire is spotted, the dam is marble. The female's sire is marble and the dam is spotted. With the high quantity of marbles in the mix, we expected to get some marbles in the litter, if not 50%.
Not a single marble was born. She had six spotted babies. It's difficult to predict unless you have a male that you know consistantly throws a certain gene.

Here's a link to a pretty good site explaining cat genetics:
http://www.hdw-inc.com/genetics.htm
I haven't read through the whole thing, but it seems pretty accurate and thorough.
post #8 of 22
Thread Starter 
Thanks Kai,

Lots of good info. on that site.
post #9 of 22
Heres a really cool site that predicts the probability of what you will end up with.

http://www.geneticswizard.com/
post #10 of 22
Thread Starter 
Thanks tiffanyjbt. So much to learn.
post #11 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals View Post
In theory that should be true. But as long as that recessive classic gene is in the pedigree somewhere, there's a chance it'll show up sometime. You do increase your odds of only throwing spotted if you're using cats that have been throwing only spots for several generations.

We recently mated a spotted male to a marble female. The male's sire is spotted, the dam is marble. The female's sire is marble and the dam is spotted. With the high quantity of marbles in the mix, we expected to get some marbles in the litter, if not 50%.
Not a single marble was born. She had six spotted babies. It's difficult to predict unless you have a male that you know consistantly throws a certain gene.

Here's a link to a pretty good site explaining cat genetics:
http://www.hdw-inc.com/genetics.htm
I haven't read through the whole thing, but it seems pretty accurate and thorough.
Kai, Do you think that marbles have an effect on the size, shape, flow of a spotteds rosettes?

Also, I know this is just theory, but what do you think of the idea that the spotted gene is just a modifier of the stripping gene? That the mackeral/classic patterns are still the ground pattern, just broken up to form spots. To me it seems to make sense, because I've seen spotted cats with 'bullseyes' like a classic tabby andy vertical alignment like a mackeral tabby. Thats what I was unsuccessfully trying to articulate in my previous post. What are your thoughts on this?
post #12 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffanyjbt View Post
Kai, Do you think that marbles have an effect on the size, shape, flow of a spotteds rosettes?

Also, I know this is just theory, but what do you think of the idea that the spotted gene is just a modifier of the stripping gene? That the mackeral/classic patterns are still the ground pattern, just broken up to form spots. To me it seems to make sense, because I've seen spotted cats with 'bullseyes' like a classic tabby andy vertical alignment like a mackeral tabby. Thats what I was unsuccessfully trying to articulate in my previous post. What are your thoughts on this?
Here's what I think....and be advised there are some bengal breeders that disagree with me. (we all have our own opinions )

I believe it's imperative to have marbles in your program to achieve highly rosetted spotted cats with color that really pops. Yes, the marbles affect the shape, outline, color and flow of the rosettes in spotted cats. I will try to get a good photo of a kitten we are currently showing that clearly has a circular/chaotic pattern and flow to his spots. His mom is a marble with very good horizontal flow. Will post it here when I have the shots I want.

For your second question....I'm not sure....I'm keeping an open mind on that. It is nice to believe that the spotted gene in our bengals is just that...spotted. That the rib bars are a seperate gene introduced by the domestics and now so imbedded that we're all having trouble eliminating it. I know the Toyger breeders love to use bengals with lots of rib bars and vertical alignment. For myself, I am working hard to eliminate it from my program altogether, with limited success.

Once the ALC's genes are diluted and added to after the first breeding, we really throw a monkey wrench into what we're going to get as offspring.
For me this is actually one of the fun and and attractive reasons to breed these cats. We see a huge variety of traits. No bengal cat is identical looking to the next.
post #13 of 22
I know more of color genetics then the spotted/classic/mack tabby genetics - thanks for the explanation. Took years of reading about the color - I don't want to get into the tabby

I'm not planning on breeding oci's but was just curious. Only the spotted oci's are shown so it would be better if you had more spotted then then the classic or aby(ticked) patterns that are recessive in the breed. IMO you certainly don't want to keep breeding the non-showable patterns if the standard only wants spotted.
post #14 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
I know more of color genetics then the spotted/classic/mack tabby genetics - thanks for the explanation. Took years of reading about the color - I don't want to get into the tabby

I'm not planning on breeding oci's but was just curious. Only the spotted oci's are shown so it would be better if you had more spotted then then the classic or aby(ticked) patterns that are recessive in the breed. IMO you certainly don't want to keep breeding the non-showable patterns if the standard only wants spotted.
Wouldn't you want the aby (agouti) ticking and the classic circular flow in an oci? Thats all a part of the breed standard. Thats why I'm wondering how true it is that the spotting is a modifier of the mackarel or classic pattern:

From CFA:

TICKING: all hairs except the tip of the tail are banded. Within the markings, hairs are tipped with a darker color, while hairs in the ground color are tipped with a lighter color.

PATTERN: there is an intricate tabby "M" on the forehead, with markings extending up over the head between the ears and breaking into small spots on the lower neck and shoulders. Mascara markings are found around the eyes and on cheeks. Rows of round spots run along the spine from shoulder blades to tail. The tail has horizontal brush strokes down the top, ideally alternating with spots, and a dark tip. Spots are scattered across the shoulders and hindquarters, extending as far as possible down the legs. There are broken bracelets on the lower legs and broken necklaces at the throat - the more broken the better. Large well-scattered, thumbprint-shaped spots appear on the sides of the torso, with a subtle suggestion of a classic tabby pattern - a spot circled by spots in place of the bull's eye. The belly is also well spotted. The eyes are rimmed with the darkest coat color and surrounded by the lightest color. Penalties should be given for elongated spots following a mackerel pattern.

http://www.cfainc.org/breeds/standards/ocicat.html So wouldn't you want to keep classics and highly ticked (agouti) cats in your breeding program?

*sigh* I'm thouroughly confused...
post #15 of 22
Well no you wouldn't need the abys and american shorthairs or the siamese in the breeding programs. CFA stopped some of the outcrossing. I think the abys will be allowed a few more years.

Since the ocicat was bred for spots, you should be breeding spot to spot so that the other patterns will become more recessive. Its known to be a spotted cat - why would you want any other pattern? The original formula was aby to siamese and the spotted pattern was a surprise out of that cross. The classic was added because they used the silver classic american shorthairs...thus you have all 3 tabby patterns now.

I guess they really should have used a silver spotted tabby rather then the classic, but its in the gene pool now

ALL forms of tabby are "ticked" in color - with alternating bands - just some are striped or spotted and others are aby ticked. If you look really close to a tabby coloring, you will see the ticking that they are talking about.
post #16 of 22
Here's a picture of "Itsy", aka "It's no Illusion". You can see the marble(classic tabby gene) influence on his spots by the circular pattern. He has 2 distinct circles of spots, one inside the other. I personally like the way he looks, but we'll see what the show judges have to say in the coming months. He's 5 months old now.

post #17 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals View Post
Here's a picture of "Itsy", aka "It's no Illusion". You can see the marble(classic tabby gene) influence on his spots by the circular pattern. He has 2 distinct circles of spots, one inside the other. I personally like the way he looks, but we'll see what the show judges have to say in the coming months. He's 5 months old now.

I think Itsy's a very handsome fellow but I'm not a show judge.
post #18 of 22
Its not so much a different pattern, but the ground pattern of the classic tabby that is desired. How do you get the circular flow without the classic tabby's genes? Spots are dominant anyway, so I guess what I'm asking is this: If you bred a heterozygous spotted to a classic tabby, would the resulting spotted kittens have more of a circular flow than their spotted parent? Does the classic pattern influence the flow of spotting?

Kai, is this what you were getting at when you said a good spotted program should have a few good marbles?

edit:
*(nevermind, I think you just answered that a bit. Was Itsy bred from a marble parent?)

edit(2):
*(LOL! I just saw on the first page that you said Itsy's mom is a marble. Long day! Thanks Kai!)

Tiffany
post #19 of 22
[quote=Kai Bengals;1447127]but we'll see what the show judges have to say in the coming months.QUOTE]

I've seen PLENTY of marbles with an obvious bullseye getting Granded. Hows his head look? I love his rosettes! The judges will probably pay more attention to those hot spots than their layout. Good Luck!!!

Tiffany
post #20 of 22
[quote=tiffanyjbt;1447175]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals View Post
but we'll see what the show judges have to say in the coming months.QUOTE]

I've seen PLENTY of marbles with an obvious bullseye getting Granded. Hows his head look? I love his rosettes! The judges will probably pay more attention to those hot spots than their layout. Good Luck!!!

Tiffany
He has a great head, straight profile, nice rounded small ears, big whisker pads and expressive brilliant green eyes. I think he's a winner...but it's the judges that decide. However, I wouldn't put him in the show hall, if I didn't think he had a better than average chance. The photo I took does him little justice, his contrast is amazing.
Yeah, of course I'm biased, he's my cat..lol. However, He's done well as a kitten at his first show, so I think the trend has a good chance of continuing.
We're not new to this stuff, so we kind of know, who's a winner and who's not by now. This boy has potential and he IS getting better day by day, so for now, he's a certified member of our show team.
post #21 of 22
Itsy is just a handsome boy ....
post #22 of 22
I believe the biggest difference between ocicats and the bengels is that the spotted ocicats are the only ones allowed to be shown. If I'm not mistaken the bengels allow the marble and the spotted patterns (correct me if I'm wrong).

If that's the case, the bengels would still want marbles in the breeding program. With oci's you only want spotted.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Showing and Ethical Breeding
TheCatSite.com › Forums › Cat Breeds, Breeding and Showing › Showing and Ethical Breeding › Question for Bengal Breeders