Why are Show Siamese' so..different?

morrigannrowan

TCS Member
Kitten
Joined
Nov 4, 2006
Messages
13
Purraise
0
Location
Dunedin, FL
Give me an extreme as can be refined Oriental ANY DAY!!!!!!

But then, they are the SALUKI of cats, and I am a Saluki, Borzoi, and Whippet person.

I can't stand coarse/common looking dogs, and while I am more forgiving of coarse or common looking cats, since all cats are really quite elegant, I certainly prefer the refined/oriental ones.
 

celestialrags

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
Messages
1,469
Purraise
2
Originally Posted by MorriganNRowan

Give me an extreme as can be refined Oriental ANY DAY!!!!!!

But then, they are the SALUKI of cats, and I am a Saluki, Borzoi, and Whippet person.

I can't stand coarse/common looking dogs, and while I am more forgiving of coarse or common looking cats, since all cats are really quite elegant, I certainly prefer the refined/oriental ones.
I love Borzois and salukis! I tried to find a rescue or even a breeder of them but being in back woods maine, I found none

Do you own a borzoi? I would love to see a picture. Some day I would like to have one, (and a cornish rex (cat) I really like that slender (lanky) build my roomate (daughters father) thinks they are ugly (how any one could think such a thing!
 

mimosa

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
Sep 26, 2005
Messages
608
Purraise
37
Location
The Netherlands
Originally Posted by celestialrags

But, I am not talking about these breeds, I am talking about pointed cats where the white spotted gene is associated.
If a cat doesnt have a certain set amount of white then that is fine, but, talking about cats thats do have these standards (which all breeds have specific set standards) They have to be that, or they are considered pet quality.
Yeah, since I'm showing my Birman I'm certainly aware of that, but I was reacting to your statement that any breed with White Spotting will have mismarked pet kittens. That's something else than all pointed breeds which have white spotting gene and a description of white distribution in the standard
(there are pointed breeds which can't have mismarked cats as well)

If a breeder is breeding and have a breed with these patterns and doesn't know what they are (harlequin or mitted) I don't think they have any business breeding and obviously aren't ready to breed. I knew what patterns and colors (both traditional, and non-traditional) before I bred my cats, and if you don't even know what kind of patterns your breed has, or even what they are then best leave breeding to some one who does.
I was still talking about breeders of breeds like NFO, MCO etc, some of them don't really know about the exact parameters for these patterns, because they just don't concern their breeds. I couldn't tell you the exact terminology for all Bengal colours, but that wouldn't disqualify me from breeding Persians for example.

@ goldenkitty; being so precise about markings just gives you less cats to show with but no less breedquality cats. As celestialrags says, you can breed perfect show quality kittens from mismarked parents, so the genetic material doesn't have to be lost. No one will stop you from taking a cat with perfect type but bad laces to show, the judge will get your cat on the table, turn her around , see the laces, maybe frown a little
, and then proceed to judge the rest of the cat. As a breeder you might not get the big show succes, but you'll have heard the judges opinion on your cat and could use comments on type etc to select a good breeding partner. In your litter from that cat you might get some nice show quality kittens as wel as pet and/or breed quality.

On the topic of why there are different types of Siamese; I think breeders conform to the taste of judges and "mould" their breed to look that way (and subsequently breed standards might get revised too), but when some breeders and part of the public do not share that taste of what makes a show Siamese you will still have the "traditional" Siamese around for people who just want a pet and do not care for the "refined" look. Taste is an ongoing thing, it develops and so does the look of the cats. With the show Siamese it started with kinked tails and crossed eyes, went to cats without these defects, to longer and sleeker bodies and heads, bigger and lower ears, etc.
 

siameseohio

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
Jul 29, 2006
Messages
361
Purraise
1
Location
Ohio
I understand it truly is a preference thing. Someday I'd like to attend a show out of curiosity. I just find it a little strange that the 'standard' changes depending on what judges prefer. Therefore and ultimately some peopleâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]s opinions change on what is considered desirable in a particular breed.

About a month ago there was a thread on this site that discussed some of the health issues that have occurred in some breeds due to these standards and breeding. I'm sure I'm probably of a minority on this site, but I can't see a group of people defining for me what a breed of animal should look like in order for it to be desirable. Especially if extreme breeding needs to take place to get a 'look'.

I do want to keep an open mind, that is also why I want to go to a show to get a better understanding of this thinking.
 

kai bengals

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Sep 5, 2005
Messages
3,931
Purraise
17
Location
North Carolina
Siameseohio,

It is the breeders who determine and set the "standards" for cat breeds. The judges merely interpret the written standard and judge cats accordingly. Of course that leads to some judges seeing things differently than others.

All breeds have a breed comittee within the registry that determines the breed standard and approves any changes to it over time.

There is really is no other way, than to have a group of people oversee how breed cats should look and how the breed should either remain, or progress.

Without this sort of regulation, we might as well just have moggies and folks could pick and choose among them, what color they like best, head shape, etc.
 

celestialrags

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
Messages
1,469
Purraise
2
Originally Posted by MorriganNRowan

I do have Borzoi. Would you like help locating one? There are also many Salukis in New England...
Yes, I would love help locating one. (either rescue or a breeding is fine, although where I have a young child, I prefer one from a breeder, just because the back ground is known, where a rescue, could have issues that I wouldn't be aware of. but, I would still be willing to adopt a rescue of coarse!
 

morrigannrowan

TCS Member
Kitten
Joined
Nov 4, 2006
Messages
13
Purraise
0
Location
Dunedin, FL
I know of several Borzoi breedings. If you're willing to pay for shipping or drive a ways. I am sure there are some up your way, too! I know of puppies in Virginia and in Georgia right now. Black and white (tri-color, technically, but we never use that term in Borzoi) and reds with Irish markings I think. I would most likely NOT adopt an adult Borzoi or Saluki with cats, unless the dog had previous lived with them, like mine have. I don't have one available, though. I don't breed. PM me if you think you might be interested in the pups I know of. I'll send you some links
 

morrigannrowan

TCS Member
Kitten
Joined
Nov 4, 2006
Messages
13
Purraise
0
Location
Dunedin, FL
And I couldn't resist this one of she and my Golden Retriever puppy playing
I really need to dig my real camera out and take a few new pics.
 

denice

TCS Member
Veteran
Joined
Feb 7, 2006
Messages
18,838
Purraise
13,144
Location
Columbus OH
I have been having the same problem finding a breeder of Snowshoe cats. I found ones on the internet in California and Louisiana. I live in Ohio and if I know nothing about the breeder other than what is on the internet I would want to personally visit them. There were breeders that came up on the search but when I went to the site all I found were traditional Siamese.
 

pondwader

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
May 31, 2004
Messages
616
Purraise
3
Location
ontario, canada
I love all pointed cats... and having raised siamese, himilayans, burmese, and tonkinese for many years, I couldn't pick a favorite "body type" I love the graceful elegance of a modern siamese, as long as it is healthy, well muscled, and not a bone rack. I love the old style siamese too, the burmese and tonkinese are a similar body type to old style siamese, but in my opinion both are breeds all on their own in more than looks. The personalities are different too.
 

siameseohio

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
Jul 29, 2006
Messages
361
Purraise
1
Location
Ohio
Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

Siameseohio,

It is the breeders who determine and set the "standards" for cat breeds. The judges merely interpret the written standard and judge cats accordingly. Of course that leads to some judges seeing things differently than others.

All breeds have a breed comittee within the registry that determines the breed standard and approves any changes to it over time.

There is really is no other way, than to have a group of people oversee how breed cats should look and how the breed should either remain, or progress.

Without this sort of regulation, we might as well just have moggies and folks could pick and choose among them, what color they like best, head shape, etc.
Thank you Kai Bengals for a better understanding. Again, it goes back to different preferences. Having moggies at shows obviously would defeat the purpose of rewarding various standards in different breeds. I just don't have an understanding why the desire seems to continue to push the envelope to the extreme in particular breeds. I appreciate the insight that it actually is the breeders who set the standard and not the judges. This I did not know. Thanks for the education.
 

celestialrags

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
Messages
1,469
Purraise
2
Thanks for sharing a picture, she is so beautiful, I love her! I would like to have some links to breeders if you would. Any on salukis too. I really like both, so I would like to consider both until I decide, (most likely borzoi, I have always loved them!)
 

tiffanyjbt

TCS Member
Super Cat
Joined
Jul 11, 2006
Messages
795
Purraise
1
Location
NW Indiana
Originally Posted by Abymummy

I've never heard of a classic Siamese before!!! An example of an inbetween Traditional Apple head and the more extreme modern Siamese, as GK said, can be found in the Tonkinese...As far as I know when a person refers to the term "less extreme" then they are referring to the modern siamese - ie. the wedge is not so triangular, the body is maybe less tubular or slightly stocky...and this is why I breed Abyssinians!!!
There is a classic siamese type. Its got a wedge shaped head too, just not as "extreme" as the modern. There is a lot of debate about the exact classifications, but the ones that I know of are: Traditional; Apple-head; Classic; Old-Style; Modern; Wedge-head... None of those terms should really be used interchangeably because different people will give you different standards. Also, "classic" is not recognized in any registry as a "variant". They are registered as siamese (just not show-quality). Here are a few links describing the differences:

Relatively unbiased:
http://www.meezer.com/siambreed1.html

Old-style(classic, for sake of convo):
http://home.earthlink.net/~sarsenstone/OSSdefin.html

Modern (wedge, fsoc):
http://www.cfainc.org/breeds/profile...s/siamese.html

Traditional (apple, fsoc):
http://www.breeds.traditionalcats.co...amese.html#top


My preference is the Old-style siamese. I used to think the Moderns were ugly. After meeting a few (and their owners) I have changed my mind. I know a breeder of wedge-head oriental shorthairs. Her cats are gorgeous! I would love to own one, but we already have one meezer and we'll be getting a bengal in December. My husband won't hear of a third, but if I were to convice him, it would be one of her OSHs. They're all unique and beautiful in their own ways...
 

tiffanyjbt

TCS Member
Super Cat
Joined
Jul 11, 2006
Messages
795
Purraise
1
Location
NW Indiana
BTW, I haven't posted here in months, but I've been "lurking" here and there. Heres a pic of my meezer, Sir Duke:



He definitely has a wedge shaped head(though not at all "extreme"), and you can tell in the above picture, but sometimes it looks more round because of the fur around his head:



Some would classify him as a classic or old-style and some would classify him as a traditional or apple-head. I prefer to classify him as a "Handsome Devil"
 

tiffanyjbt

TCS Member
Super Cat
Joined
Jul 11, 2006
Messages
795
Purraise
1
Location
NW Indiana
Originally Posted by Mia mouse

Relatively unbiased? Just the use of the term wedgehead shows a bias. The Siamese breeders I have had contact with find this term offensive.
Well, I DID say "relatively", and when compared to the other links it looks like it was written by Mother Teresa!


I understand that some breeders find both the term 'wedgehead' and 'applehead' to be offensive. Most of the siamese breeders that I have met, however, use the terms themselves (and with pride). The term 'wedge' is even in the breed standard.

http://www.cfainc.org/breeds/standards/siamese.html

But I appologise if I offended you or anyone else here. That was NOT my intent.

Tiffany

P.S. Theres a forum on that site and the vast majority of the members are huge fans of the modern type siamese and they affectionately call them 'frootbats'. Theres a breeder of OSHs there who calls her babies 'gremmies', as in huge gremlin ears, and they are GORGEOUS!!!
 

hopehacker

TCS Member
Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2003
Messages
8,147
Purraise
4
Location
Los Angeles,CA
I always called them Wedge Heads before I knew the term Modern Siamese. Even though my SunLee isn't that extreme, someone actually asked me what breed she is, because they'd never really seen anything other than the Applehead Siamese. They thought she was some rare exotic breed.
 
Top