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INBREEDING??? Persians

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
I have a question, I am looking for a new Male Persian to Purchase (as a breeder) and I found one that I really like, but when I was looking at his pedigree I noticed that father / daughter was breed to produce him. For you experienced breeders . . . what do you think about this??? Is it better to stay away from him?? or Do you you feel the Father / daughter breeding is ok?? He has no relationship to my female so as far as that goes, it is clear.

THanks!
Valerie
post #2 of 15
I'm not a breeder but common sense would make me not choose a kitten that is the off spring of father/daughter in breeding .
post #3 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by gardenandcats View Post
I'm not a breeder but common sense would make me not choose a kitten that is the off spring of father/daughter in breeding .
Some breeders choose to breed this way, it is called by them, "close breeding" although I choose to avoid close breeding, it is done because they have most likely have certain genetic charactoristics that have been proven in them. Just like inbreeding causes bad genetics, because they are using close related cats with bad genetic issues or too much close breeding, well these most likely have good genetic charactoristics the breeder wants to keep in the lines. I don't do any close breeding at all, but, it is done, by some.
post #4 of 15
I know line breeding is done by almost all serious dog/cat/horse people to help maintain their lines, and for 'healthier' stock. But while it is true that line breeding will bring out the good characteristics and make them better, it can also bring out the bad and make it worse.

IMO father/daughter is way too close for breeding. If the male carried a genetic disease he could have passed on the faulty gene to his daughter, and god only knows if it was reflected in this litter
post #5 of 15
Thread Starter 
thank you for your replies. I will pass on this lil boy then for breeding (although he is adorable) and look for something else. Since my female is a CPC, maybe I will look for a Himmi instead.

Any one have any available??
post #6 of 15
No - if it was father/granddaughter - it would be ok, but I would pass on a father/daughter breeding.

Question - have you shown your persian to Champion or better (Grand)? Your chances of getting a top quality male for breeding are even less then a quality breeding female. Most breeders will NOT sell a male for breeding unless they know you well or your cat is Grand Ch with an impressive pedigree.
post #7 of 15
I'm not a persian breeder but it's my understanding that inbreeding and line breeding is quite common in persians and exotics - it is done to specifically keep desirable traits like big eyes, small ears, and really good doming ...especially the doming.
post #8 of 15
Sadly inbreeding is way to common among breeders of all domestic species. When put in system inbreeding (even what breeders often call "line breeding") cause weak immune system, low fertility, small litters and small individuals.
post #9 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45 View Post
Question - have you shown your persian to Champion or better (Grand)? Your chances of getting a top quality male for breeding are even less then a quality breeding female. Most breeders will NOT sell a male for breeding unless they know you well or your cat is Grand Ch with an impressive pedigree.
Yes I have shown my female and other Persians that I own. But that was not what my original question was about. It was just about inbreeding or line breeding. Thanks everyone for your help. I have purchased another blue pt. show/breeder quality that does not apprear to have any line breeding in his pedigree.
post #10 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by vrgchs View Post
Yes I have shown my female and other Persians that I own. But that was not what my original question was about. It was just about inbreeding or line breeding. Thanks everyone for your help. I have purchased another blue pt. show/breeder quality that does not apprear to have any line breeding in his pedigree.
She has answered your question.
"No - if it was father/granddaughter - it would be ok, but I would pass on a father/daughter breeding."- (GK45)

And in turn asked a question, just like you had, I think she was just trying to give you a little info and be helpful, after she asked you, she told you why she was asking. She, (or any one else) doesn't try and offend any one, just ask questions too. In order to be the most helpful some times we need some info. (sorry GK to speak for you, if it bothered you, yell at me (in a pm, so it doesn't get us in trouble, LOL!)

"Question - have you shown your persian to Champion or better (Grand)? Your chances of getting a top quality male for breeding are even less then a quality breeding female. Most breeders will NOT sell a male for breeding unless they know you well or your cat is Grand Ch with an impressive pedigree".-(GK45)

I was interested in knowing what (if you have one) is your cattery name, I like to hear what people use for theirs, it's fun for me to see what other people come up with, but I don't want to bother you by asking, (but, if you would like to volunteer it, please do )
post #11 of 15
No problem speaking for me. What I was most concerned with is the purchase of a male cat and then asking about the inbreeding. IMO if you were not sure of pedigrees and what to look for, you are not ready to be in the breeding business.

Not to sound harsh, but I studied pedigrees and knew what to look for YEARS before I ever did breeding. Your post was more like a novice breeder who didn't have experience in showing/breeding cats. That scares me!

What lines is your female from? What is her pedigree like (champions/grands)? You should be looking for a male that has qualities your female doesn't and you also should be looking for many grands and champions in the first few generations. Otherwise, you are not improving the breed.
post #12 of 15
I also researched for a few years before I had my first litter as well. And questions like these I would ask my mentor, If some one doesn't have the relationship with the breeder, more often then not, there wasn't any breeding rights given or they came from a BYB, and don't know what from what and would give rights to any body woth a little $. Any one I know has a mentor thay will help with these things or are mentors and want nothing more then to have the person come to them so they can help select good breeding pairs to help better the breed, not to mention, their name is on that cat, they don't want any one breeding bad quality with their name in the line. Looks bad when a reputabl breeder sells to BYB's.
post #13 of 15
I'd have to agree with GK and CelestialRags - I studied abys for a long, long time before I got into breeding. And it took an Aby breeding judge (my mentors) to point me in the right direction when I finally made up my mind to breed (I was "coerced" into it when I saw a picture of Bastis Theenvelope please and another Aby-Sils cat). Even now, and I should think, forever, I email/call my mentors to get their agreement on my lines of choice to see if the matings would suit.

You want to breed a litter that is in the end not all pet quality.

I have spoken to a lot of persian breeders (Malaysia was a Persian crazy country before the advent of Maine Coons) and line breeding is very common in the persian lines...but it is usually grandfather to grandaughter...
post #14 of 15
IMO line breeding should be done very very selectively and very very catiously. I know I will have one point that would be consdiered line breeding with one of my females (my new male is from the grandmother of the little female on the fathers side), but there is distance between the lines, and i feel thats how it should be done, and even than very selectively.

There are many instances to me where Line breeding has ruined some breeds, in all ranges of husbandry, Dogs IMO GSD and Danes have fallen victim, as have Siberian Huskys (I show a non line bred female its tough but we do it)

Horses are another sore victim of the line breeding, thats brught about horribly long backs, and necks that are far to hooked making many lines unrideable.

Good luck
post #15 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol View Post
Sadly inbreeding is way to common among breeders of all domestic species. When put in system inbreeding (even what breeders often call "line breeding") cause weak immune system, low fertility, small litters and small individuals.
I did a close breeding once, though it was accidental {siblings} Never, ever again. There were 5 kittens born, one died suddenly of some kind of seizure at about 6 weeks old, and all of them were undersized by quite a bit. Although I will say that the effects of inbreeding disappear quickly if the inbred individual is bred to an unrelated mate.

Oh, and a parent/child breeding has the same inbreeding coefficient {precentage of like genes} as a sibling-sibling breeding: 50%. 50% on average for siblings, 50% exactly for parent/child. Which is quite high.
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