Inappropriate Peeing

Ok, I need help... bad.
I have an 8yo calico (Frankie) that has a peeing problem. It's been on-going for years (4+) now and has become more frequent lately. I'm at the end of my rope and if something doesn't work soon I'm afraid I'll have to adopt her out. I really don’t want to. I’ve had her since she was a few days old. She was abandoned by mom (or mom got hit I’m not sure) and when I found her, her eyes weren’t even open yet. I took her to work with me…bottle fed her and taught her to potty so she really is part of the family.

Some details...

-As I said she's about 8
-This has been a problem for years
-She's been given a clean bill of health (more than once) and the vet says it's behavioral and doesn't appear to be spraying but is actually peeing.
-We also have a kitten (about 1.5 yo, male {Wicket})
-They are both fixed
-Her peeing behavior didn't changed at all when we got him
-I've tried deterants like tinfoil, chilli powder, and various other things including the Feliway diffuser for around 3 months (which she peed right in front of more than once)
-I always throughly clean the areas when she pees
-It's typically when we're asleep or gone that she pees but she does do it when we are home too occasionally
-I always praise her when she does use the litter box for anything
-She always poops in her box
-I clean the box everyday

I've read that you can begin to re-train a cat by limiting their access to other rooms in the house but I'm afraid confining her would cause seperation anxiety for Wicket (and possible her as well) and I don't think it's fair to confine them both for 2 reasons 1) being locked up together might stress her out because he is high energy and 2) I feel it's unfair to confine him when he's done nothing wrong. I'm gratefull everyday that he doesn't pick up Frankie's bad habit. I'm also worried about deterants because in the past if it has kept her away from a particular spot it only causes her to find a new bad spot instead of sending her back to the box. I'm going to change their feeding schedule so that I can maybe confine us both to the litter room after shes eaten so I can encourage her to use the box and praise her if she does. I'm also going to schedule playtime for just her and do the same thing after playtime (visit the box). Plus, I just read about Vodka to clean up the smell and citrus to deter her which I'm going to try. The vet suggested anti-depressants as a possible solution but with no gaurentee and the way my cat react to pills I'm not ready to try that (she foams at the mouth at the very site of pills) But any other ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. If you need to know anything else let me know… I tried to include everything I could think of that is related to this.

Welcome to my world! I have five cats. My calico was inappropriately peeing and the conclusion was she is hyper sensitive and experienced sepration anxiety when my husband traveled. It wasn't an everyday occurance but just enough to make me batty. I live in 4,000 sq ft home so she wasn't cramped for space. After awhile, it seemed to stop. I used scat mats on the areas she peed and used powerful enzyme cleaners. She only peed on rugs. I removed all the area rugs and covered my good rugs with scat mats and sonic pet deterrents. I think the name is Cat Scram.

Then I rescused a stray. Missy came to live with us two years ago. The territorial wars began. Plus, two of my cats torment her to no end. I could write a book on what I did. After two years, it's calmed down but it still happens.

With 3 floors and lots of space; I would need hundreds of scat mats. My home is like a mine field now; I think I have six or seven mats around. This by far is the best deterrent if your cat is only peeing in one area.

Unfortunately for me; Missy peed the other night on my new granite bar top. I have to suspect she jumped up there to get away from the bully Jake. I work all day so I'm not there to intervene. Jake gets bored and when he does, he just torments her by either blocking her way that she's trapped and can't go downstairs or chasing her that she hides under the dresser in my bedroom alll day. When I get home, she becomes glued to me.

This is not an every day occurance but just enough that I step over to the other side of madness. You know that fine line between sanity and madness!

My home is decorated and furnished with lovely pieces. I know what you're feeling but I can only offer that if it's not medical, then it's behavioural and soemthing is making her pee. Does she see any cats outside? Does she get along with the other kitty because it sounds like it may be a territorial issue or she has some kind of anxiety that may be benign to us but real to her.

I did try meds with Molly, my calico and it did help some but I just didn't like the idea of medicating her. She was fine for about a year before I brought Missy in. I thought the problem was solved.

Foil works for me too but like I said, the house is too big that it finds me (the pee spot) before I find it!

Did I mention that I am absolutely anal about cleaniness and people don't even know I have one cat, never mind five. That's why I go ballistic when I come across a pee spot.

I wish I could offer other solutions. She won't be adoptable if she is doing this and after eight years, how can you give her up! Trust me, I feel your pain and there are days I wish I never had a cat.

I would be curious to read what others post.

This is not an every day occurance but just enough that I step over to the other side of madness. You know that fine line between sanity and madness!

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With Frankie it's an almost everyday occurance... and everytime I see a puddle (she sticks to tile fortunately) I step over that sanity line for a second. It's so hard to not treat her like a dog and rub her nose in it but I know that doesn't work. I've tried it and while it seems like she knows why I'm upset it doesn't stop her.

Does she see any cats outside? Does she get along with the other kitty because it sounds like it may be a territorial issue or she has some kind of anxiety that may be benign to us but real to her.

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I don't think there are any cats outside. Even if there were I doubt thats it because when she pees it's in the kitchen which is in the center of the building and no where near the windows or doors. It could be a problem w/ the other cat but she was doing this before we got Wicket. Although the dominance seems to have shifted now that he's bigger then her. When he was small he submitted to her most of the time and now it's the other way round. She does still smak him up when she's had enough though.

The foil worked... kinda. At first it just made her find new spots. I want to avoid that because any new spot would mean carpet and I've already shelled out $500 to replace the carpet in my old apartment when I moved. Eventually the entire perimeter of my apartment was tinfoil... at that point she started peeing on the foil.

She won't be adoptable if she is doing this and after eight years, how can you give her up! Trust me, I feel your pain and there are days I wish I never had a cat.

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Everytime I'm cleaning up pee I think... I wish I'd never found her. But when I'm calm I know that's not true. I wouldn't trade her for the world and for as long as it's been going on if I was serious about getting rid of her I would have already. It's an empty threat.

I was just wondering, what have you cleaned the areas with? An enzymatic cleaner? Don't take this wrong, you may know more than I am getting from your post. Urine stains are tough to remove, I know from experince. You can try something like Nature's Miracle & use a blacklight to be sure the entire stain is gone.

If you don't mind me asking, what has your vet checked Frankie for? I know a member here has a cat with cystitis. I would do a forum search for inappropriate peeing & see what you can find out.

You mentioned you tried a Feliway diffuser. I read that you can also spray Feliway spray on the spots where your cat urinated & it is supposed to help. It might not if Frankie is peeing rather than spraying.

I don't really have any other advice. I'm sorry that Frankie is having this problem. She is really lucky to have you! I must add here, that it is really difficult to find a home for a cat who has "out of the box" experinces. You sound like you are willing to try anything for Frankie, so hopefully more members can offer more advice!

ETA: Sorry, I see you addressed the finding her a new home issue. I didn't see your post as I was writing mine.

In June he did a complete urinanalysis and found nothing. I clean the spots (all on tile) w/ an enzyme cleaner (Urine Gone I think). This weekend I'll use the black light again to see if I've got it all and I'm going to try Vodka as was suggested in another thread here.

I've never tried the Feliaway spray but in June the vet was going to suggest the diffuser again till I told him it didn't work 3 years ago. He said if it didn't work then it probably won't work now (spray included).

Now, I'm off to search for more ideas.

Thanks for the replies guys!

Just an idea. My Jake pees out of his litter box - meaning over it because when he sees a stray, he runs downstairs and pees. He has never peed in the kitchen where he can see the stray from the window. I have a stray, Blackberry, that comes to my deck to eat and I feed him out of view from my cats but they know he's there. Just something to keep in mind.

The vodka is a good alternative and so isn't white vinegar. The key is to dilute the area with water first and blot up as best you can. I usually pour a glass of cold water on the stain first and then blot with towels. I've used some pretty good stuff. I like zero odor.

http://www.zeroodor.com/

I also like Kids n' Pets http://www.islandpetvet.com/section/...ecialties,+Inc.

I think you can find this in grocery stores now.

Well, I sprayed all her favorite spots with Urine Gone again this morning after coming home yesterday to 3 puddles and 2 more this morning. It's so hard to not get mad at her and its to the point where she expects me to. I don't believe that cat's don't understand wrong behavior after the fact. When she sees me get the paper towels to clean up one of her messes she runs away weather I'm acting angry or not.

I live in an apartment complex and none of my neighbors have cats and in the 2 years I've been there I've never seen another cat outside either.

What are your opinions on confinement until the 'accidents' stop? I've tried it in the past. I know about when she goes and I've tried confining her durring those times and she just finds other places to pee in the room that aren't her littler box. She once even peed right next to her food dish which is at the opposite end of the room at least 6' away from the litter box.

I just wish she could talk. Then she could tell me what I'm doing wrong and why she doesn't like to pee in the box. What stumps me is that she's never had a BM outside the box... just pee. It's clear that she's scared of me near the litter box if that makes sense. I tried sitting the the room with her this morning after she ate and while she did become affectionate at first she was very hesitant.

I also feel bad because she doesn't cuddle with me like she did before I got Wicket. I do give her lots of one-on-one love so that she doesn't feel jelouse but maybe it's not enough. I just don't know anymore.

I used Urine Gone - it didn't seem to do the trick!

Some of the other cleaners do a better job. Unless you remove the odor completely, just spraying the area won't do anything. Cats have a sharp sense of smell and can detect odors we can't.

Another option you can try is contacting a Cat Communicator. I did this when Molly was peeing inappropriately. The communicator asked me if I traveled; I didn't but my husband did. It seemed that Molly was very attached to him and she became anxious when he wasn't home and away longer than a few days. So, believe it or not; my husband would pick he up before a trip and tell her to count how many times it got dark and light and he would be home (he would say when it gets dark three times, I will be home when it's light again).

I know you are probably shaking your head but it worked. She didn't start peeing again until Missy came on board and that was purely territorial.

Now it's Missy peeing but suspect it's because of fear. Jake picks on her and bullies her any chance he gets.

You wished your cat could talk right; well, a communicator can talk to her and find out what's bugging her. Really!

I've thought about that before and no, I'm not shaking my head. I truely believe that there are some lucky people out ther who can commune w/ animals. I'll have to see who I can find in my area... and some new enzyme cleaner.

Thanks again, nanci

It's nothing "psychic"... it's just that some people can read animals the way you can read another human: facial expression, body language, tone of voice, even things like the way they walk and the tempo of their speech. You can get a world of information from that.

A cat's language is mostly non-verbal, and what is verbal has no words--just pitch, volume, and tempo. So if someone is particularly suited to picking up on a cat's language, they can "translate" for humans. A lot of these people also have musical or artistic talent.

A total tangent I've been interested in lately, but which does have something to do with animal communication:
I think there's probably a connection between autism and communicating with animals. I have Asperger Syndrome, which is a very mild form of autism, and I can communicate with cats better than anyone I've met in real life (though probably about average here on this site)--no "cat psychic", but I've picked up a few "words" here and there.

Many autistic people, especially those who are non-verbal or had language delays in childhood, are very visually oriented, and will pick up on animals' non-verbal language more easily. (Some autistic people have no connection to animals, but such a connection seems to be much more common among them.)

The strange thing is that autism also makes it much harder to pick up on human communication--verbal and non-verbal. People on the more severe end of the autism spectrum often don't use speech at all (communicating by sign, picture board, or typing), while people like me can speak well but are seen as socially awkward "geeks" who use big words, talk in a monotone, or have trouble with jokes or figures of speech.

Google "Temple Grandin". She's an example of just one such autistic person; she works with cattle as an animal behaviorist, designing livestock handling facilities for vet care, as well as humane slaughterhouses. Even if you are a vegetarian, you have to be rather amazed at the way she is able to think the way a cow or sheep thinks.

Call: The communicator I used did this over the phone; she said the cat did not have to be in her presence. I guess she used some form or telepathic science. I've used her a few times and she's been on target some and off target at other times.

So, is the success rate higher to pin point what is bothering an animal if the animal is in the presence of the person communicating with him/her?

Very interesting and insightful post by the way

A few more suggestions. Sorry if they've already been mentioned.... Hopefully I can throw out a useful idea or help you think of something that would work!

Cat Attract cat litter is expensive, but worked for my Ophelia.
If you are going to confine her, a wire dog crate might work best. Then you could more to a larger room if that worked.

Have you tried throwing away the litterobxes & buying new ones? Maybe there is some smell there she doesn't like. What do you clean the boxes w/ & how often? What sort of litter do you use? Are the litterboxes covered or open? You might try buying two new litterboxes...one covered & one uncovered to see which Frankie prefers. You can also try using a rubbermaid tub. I used an 18 gallon tub & cut a hole in the top for my biggest cat to get through & viola! I have a top-entry litterbox!

Think back to when Frankie started having issues....did anything change then in terms of her world, your world, her behavior(other than the peeing, of course!), your behavior?

My kitty Sparkle Boo has been doing some naughty peeing too, but I believe it's two things. Pippin and Simple harrass and chase her, and would trap her in the litter box. She also didn't like going into the covered box because of their harrassment.
I moved the box to a more open area, removed the lid, and haven't had a problem really since.
I LOVE your idea about the rubbermaid litter box. Brilliant!!!!
My 4 kitties make such a mess with the litter, even just having one covered box would help cut down on that. Thanks!!!

I would also try getting a couple new boxes with lids and without lids and see if that helps.

Good luck!

Originally Posted by white cat lover

A few more suggestions. Sorry if they've already been mentioned.... Hopefully I can throw out a useful idea or help you think of something that would work!

Cat Attract cat litter is expensive, but worked for my Ophelia.
If you are going to confine her, a wire dog crate might work best. Then you could more to a larger room if that worked.

Have you tried throwing away the litterobxes & buying new ones? Maybe there is some smell there she doesn't like. What do you clean the boxes w/ & how often? What sort of litter do you use? Are the litterboxes covered or open? You might try buying two new litterboxes...one covered & one uncovered to see which Frankie prefers. You can also try using a rubbermaid tub. I used an 18 gallon tub & cut a hole in the top for my biggest cat to get through & viola! I have a top-entry litterbox!

Think back to when Frankie started having issues....did anything change then in terms of her world, your world, her behavior(other than the peeing, of course!), your behavior?

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[QUOTE
Cat Attract cat litter is expensive, but worked for my Ophelia.
[/quote]

I totally forgot about that! Yes, Cat Attract is excellent!

However, I hate it! Because it's hard to dispose of and it's like goo after a cat urniates on it. It doesnt' clump and has no odor control!

I use Nature's Miracle so what I did was just sprinkle some on top and mix in and then sprinkle a bit more on top. In this way, it still clumps and I can still flush the litter. I just don't use a lot but it does work well.

My co worker uses this to keep her cat from peeing on her cement floor in the basement.

It's worth a try.

Here's a link for you to check out

http://www.planeturine.com/dsp_produ...oductUnitID=30

Originally Posted by white cat lover

A few more suggestions. Sorry if they've already been mentioned.... Hopefully I can throw out a useful idea or help you think of something that would work!

Cat Attract cat litter is expensive, but worked for my Ophelia.
If you are going to confine her, a wire dog crate might work best. Then you could more to a larger room if that worked.

Have you tried throwing away the litterobxes & buying new ones? Maybe there is some smell there she doesn't like. What do you clean the boxes w/ & how often? What sort of litter do you use? Are the litterboxes covered or open? You might try buying two new litterboxes...one covered & one uncovered to see which Frankie prefers. You can also try using a rubbermaid tub. I used an 18 gallon tub & cut a hole in the top for my biggest cat to get through & viola! I have a top-entry litterbox!

Think back to when Frankie started having issues....did anything change then in terms of her world, your world, her behavior(other than the peeing, of course!), your behavior?

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Ok, first I'd like to say that you guys rock! I'm so happy I found this place.

I'm going shopping this weekend. I'm gonna get a new littler box or maybe a box and a rubbermaid tub. I'll also pick up some of the Cat Attract litter to see if that helps.

I really don't think confinement will work even in a big dog crate. I know her and she'd either wait till she was out to pee or pee through the bars at the nearest wall. Plus, Wickett is so attached to her when we're gone that he'd probably just sit there and cry at her to come out. And she's NEVER been confined in her whole life and I just don't feel good about it.

Currently they have 2 boxes. Upstairs is your usual rectanglular open box (which neither of them use very often) and downstairs is a covered corner box. I used tidy cat clumping litter. I think I'll put the rubermaid there... but without a top. The high sides will be good cuz when she pees (anywhere) she pees high and it tends to miss the box if the sides are too low. Plus, Wickett is a litter box hound and I think she might feel trapped in the closed box because he always has to follow her in there. Of course, she knows about the box upstairs but still won't use it. I'll admit I was very lazy about litter maintnance and would only clean clumps once a week and do a litter change when it began to smell to me. I'm working on that and am now taking out clumps at least once a day and cleaning the whole thing every 2 weeks at most. I usually use windex (probably not good) or just plain water to clean it when I do. I'm also gonna pick up Zero Odor cuz the Urine Gone doesn't seem to work.

-Frankie's pee-history-
I've moved alot ever since she was a kitten. After finding her while living with a boyfriend we split and I moved back home when she was less than a year old. At both my exe's and my parents she was around other animals. So far so good. I then spent about 6 month on the road w/ a truck driver while she stayed at my parents. I saw her every weekend and she was still doing well. When I came off the road we (Frankie and I) moved into the trucker's house. She was still doing well. Even when we got a dog she wsa still good. Then I moved back home... again... and thats when it began. I wasn't home alot and the dogs would chase her around the house all the time. She started peeing on the new living room carpet and the parent's weren't happy. We took her to the vet to rule out infection and came home w/ the Feliaway diffuser which she practically peed on. I moved out again (this time the parents said I could come back but she couldn't) into my first apartment. She seemed better again... the only time she peed was when my room-mate would close her door. Then Frankie would pee on the door because she couldn't get in. After a year I moved in w/ my now boyfriend and she NEVER peed outside of the box. It's funny too, because that house had a cat in it before I moved in who tore up the carpet and I know his smell was still there. I even put her litter box where the old cats was and no problems. Then we had a short breakup and I moved into a one bedroom alone where everything was still fine until we started dating again. My theory was that she was upset when he'd leave. I once saw her crying at the front door right after he had left. I got Wickett a few months later thinking that if she had a friend she'd feel better. It didn't help the peeing. When my lease ended we decided to movein together into a townhouse in the same complex. That's when I had to pay $500 to replace the carpet which was soiled in several places. I thought maybe since we we're all (me, cats and boyfriend) living together that she'd stop again but no such luck. She has good week and bad weeks but it seems like the past few months have been all bad weeks.

Again, thanks for all the replies and ideas. I'll do some shopping for her this weekend and if that doesn't seem to help I'll look into a behaviorist. Nanci, you said the lady who helped you did it over the phone. Do you still have her name?

Try buying a very shallow pan and line it with whatever material your cat likes to pee on. If he's peeing on the kitchen floor, then line it with a piece of linoeum. Put it in the general area of where he currently leaves puddles. See if he will use it. Maybe it's the litter--but maybe he just doesn't like litter at all.

I sure hope you can get something figured out! It must be really frusterating to know something's wrong but not to be able to ask what it is.

Originally Posted by twstychik

Well, I sprayed all her favorite spots with Urine Gone again this morning after coming home yesterday to 3 puddles and 2 more this morning. It's so hard to not get mad at her and its to the point where she expects me to. I don't believe that cat's don't understand wrong behavior after the fact. When she sees me get the paper towels to clean up one of her messes she runs away weather I'm acting angry or not.

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It sounds like your little Frankie has experienced a lot of upheaval in her life and finally started to rebel. Might be somewhat comparable to kids in their teen years as they strike out for attention. The old saying... Negative attention is still attention.

You may think you aren't acting angry, but cats will pick up on our feelings even when we try to stifle them.
She wants your attention and love, she's getting the attention, but doesn't feel the love.

When you set up the new boxes, it may help if you set up two downstairs, (one preferable near the kitchen where she would pee, if not in it), and one upstairs.

If the feliway does not work, maybe some Rescue Remedy might help out in calming her a bit. I've heard many things about it. It's really sounding to me that she needs a whole lot of positive reinforcement to start feeling secure again.

Good luck with your little girl. I'm sure she can get through this and be a total litter box user once again.

Well, I couldn't find any Feliway but I did get a new box. I put it right next to the old one and got some canned chicken for a special reward. Of course, the kitten was the first one to check out the new box and Frankie snubbed the chicken (she won't eat canned tune either). Not off to a good start. Saturday I cleaned the floors again and then went over them w/ vodka (read somewhere that might help) and it seemed to get better. Instead of getting mad when she does pee on the floor I just clean it up and give her some love. She's gotten lots of atention and goodies over the weekend. Today I went to the pet store and got some Cat Attract litter, some play mice, chicken treats that I know she's crazy about and a tub of cat nip... which she also loves. I got home and put some cat attract in the new box and while I was doing that someone found the nip. I got out the mice and played w/ Frankie for a few minutes (until Wickett decided his wasn't fun alone) and then I nipped the mice. I wish my digital camera worked cuz it was super cute... they were both rolling around all happy and spoiled. As soon as Frankie was done rolling around she went straight to the new box and went potty. I waited outside the bathroom (so she wouldn't run when she was done) to give her a chicken treat. So, after changing my habits to cleaning the box twice a day and making sure she knows she'll always be my favorite (shhh... don't tell Wickett) we've gone from 2+ accidents a day to 1 or less and progress is progress. Hopefully things continue in this direction.

I'm so glad to hear your positive news! I hope it continues to improve and you and Frankie can relax about this issue.