Torti-Point Siamese???

starryeyedtiger

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I have a quick question for you siamese breeders out there. Do any of you breed Torti-Points, and if so, have you noticed their tendancy to carry more weight than say a seal or flame point? Just about every other Torti-Point i've seen has also been a bit overweight. I'm thinking there is a genetic reason for this....maybe something to do with a gene passed down from the parents? The reason I ask is because my Torti-Point Siamese Jasmine is overweight. She was overweight when I rescued her from my no-kill shelter a while back when her owners were getting divorced....she started out as a foster...and well, she adopted me
(she has papers, so I know she is a purebreed) Anyways, Jasmine was overweight when I resuced her...and I have had her over a year now and she is still overweight. I have had her checked out by several vets to rule out medical problems..and they all gave her a clean bill of health aside from being overweight. We do not free feed, and I measure out her food on a daily basis. I also do not give her treats (I feel bad, but she doesn't need them...she gets kisses and hugs instead
). When I asked my vet, he said that Torti-Points tend to be more heavy than other Siamese do. I really want my girl to be as healthy as possible to prevent any types of problems associated with overweight felines. I know that her weight loss should be monitored strictly and it should be very slow and gradual so as not to upset her system. Other than that, I cannot figure out how to get my girl to a healthy weight for the life of me! Also, she is VERY active and playful...we play with her with her feather toys daily for at least 1/2 an hour to help her get her exercise. She also loves to chase and play with Isabella. She also has a bit of a pica issue and will try to eat non-food items (this has also been addressed by the vet). Needless to say my home is immaculantely kitty-proofed lol! She currently eats "Purina Indoor Cat Formula"...I've tried just about every weight mantinance food out there and she refuses to eat them.

I really need to help my sweet girl stay healthy!Any friendly suggestions would definitely help!


Here are some recent pictures of my little sugar momma!
 

renny

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I'm not sure about the torti-point question, but i feel your frustration with weight management foods and no results (or they refuse to eat them). I went through the same with Lucky after I was told she was overweight. I ended up switching her onto almost exclusively wet (measured out), and then onto raw. Since then she's lost 1.2lbs over about 3-4 months.

PS: I hope you find something that works...she sounds like an absolute doll!!
 

goldenkitty45

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None of the tortie point siamese I've seen in shows are overweight. There is no cooralation with color/overweight.
 
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starryeyedtiger

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Well, just a little update! I took Jasmine to the vet this afternoon. She unfortunately has a tiny spot of ringworm above her eye, at this point I want to scream lol....Colin, Kenzie, Me, and now Jasmine have it! Uhh!!! I got some extra medicine for her. While we were there, I had her teeth checked- the vet said they look great (I brush all of my animals teeth
I'm getting my degree in dentistry ...lol go figure!) Her ears and the rest of her look great according to the vet, so that's good! She weighs 14.7oz...her target weight is 9 lbs. We're trying yet another new weight mantinance diet with her *sigh* dry Science Diet Feline R/D formula. She will get a total of 1/2- 3/4 a cup of food a day (i will split that into two feedings...one in the morning and one at night.)The vet said this should help her with her weight so hopefully this will work! I will also be putting Abilene and Isabella on this too to help maintain and keep them at a healthy weight. Velvet will stay on the Purina.
She does excellent with it. / Jasmine was such a trooper today! lol, she's such a good girl! I couldn't fit her fat butt into the carriers or her harness
.....yet another reason she needs to loose weight! I'm going out first thing tomorrow after my class to get a carrier big enough for her...just in case
(I usually always have my girls in a kennel when I transport them, but Jasmine is ok on a leash and in the backseat (she's like a dog trapped in a kittys body
, so she went on her leash today- she was sooo funny! she was looking out of the window just like a dog and "talking" to me with her little siamese meows lol!
(she's completly leash trained just like a dog- all of my girls are). She was awesome! We had to wait a bit once we got there, so she sat down on the bench with me and was very good. she was rolling over the bench and playing...she didn't care about the dogs or other animals there....lol, she even tried to make friends with several animals and people! Most cats would have been having a heartattack after what she sat through today- there were swarms ofdogs in there that were really loud...lol, didn't phase Jasmine- thankfully!
(i was trying to keep her away from everyone else and their pets in case she was contagious, but it sure was a trip, Jasmine kept trying to work the crowd lol
). The vet absolutely loved her lol...Jasmine was purring away and trying to kiss her during the entire visit..lol, she's my favorite to take to the vet
....the others freak out lol... thanks for the responses everyone! I will keep everyone posted. They all start their new diet tomorrow!
Wish me luck!! I will have to resist all of those cute "starved" little faces and meows lol. Thanks everyone!
 
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starryeyedtiger

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

None of the tortie point siamese I've seen in shows are overweight. There is no cooralation with color/overweight.
Thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't sure if maybe Torti-Points carried a gene that made them more prone to be overweight or not. (I was referring to all of the ones I work with through Siamese Rescue...they have quite a few...all of which seem to have a little extra meat on their bones. So I wasn't sure) Thanks for clearing that up! Have a good one
 
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starryeyedtiger

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Originally Posted by Renny

I'm not sure about the torti-point question, but i feel your frustration with weight management foods and no results (or they refuse to eat them). I went through the same with Lucky after I was told she was overweight. I ended up switching her onto almost exclusively wet (measured out), and then onto raw. Since then she's lost 1.2lbs over about 3-4 months.

PS: I hope you find something that works...she sounds like an absolute doll!!
Thankyou! She is my little doll!
She's such a sweet girl! I'm glad you found something that is working well for Lucky!
I will let you know how well their new diet works
 

goldenkitty45

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The more traditional type of siamese may seem overweight compared to the modern, refined types.

She looks more like a mix of domestic sh that happens to be a pointed cat - not really a siamese. You can have pointed cats in other breeds.
 
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starryeyedtiger

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Thankyou again for explaining that.I know for certain she is a purebreed...she came from a breeder..and when her former family dropped her off at my no-kill shelter..they took her papers along with her. So she's definitely a pure breed(although it doesn't matter to me eithor way! I don't care if a kitty has papers or not, they all need good homes. I have two moggies and two pure breeds...all were rescued.
). / So you think she's more of a traditional type?
 

booktigger

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I have to say that she doesnt' look like a Siamese to me. I also dont rate R/D, I used it for Tom and he didnt lose much weight on it, he lost more when we switched him to 90% wet.
 

goldenkitty45

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If you compare her with a show siamese, yes she's more of the old fashioned types. Even if she has papers, she's a product of old style siamese or pet quality siamese.

Just curious as to the association she is registered with? What does her papers say?
 
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starryeyedtiger

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

If you compare her with a show siamese, yes she's more of the old fashioned types. Even if she has papers, she's a product of old style siamese or pet quality siamese.

Just curious as to the association she is registered with? What does her papers say?
They say TICA. I have no idea how that works or how her breeder registered her? I'm not involved with breeders or show cats...just rescuse, so I don't have much knowledge on that topic.
Her previous owners adopted her as a "pet quality" siamese.
 
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starryeyedtiger

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Originally Posted by booktigger

I have to say that she doesnt' look like a Siamese to me. I also dont rate R/D, I used it for Tom and he didnt lose much weight on it, he lost more when we switched him to 90% wet.
Her papers say she is. / What did you not like specifically about the R/D formula? I'm curious becase I started all of my girls, except velvet, on that formula today. Also, what wet food do you use? My girls do not get wet food.
 

goldenkitty45

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Those that show TICA, do they accept the old style siamese as a separate breed? I know their normal siamese don't look anything like the OP's cat.

And if they got the parents of this cat or the cat themselves, all should have been altered and not bred.
 
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starryeyedtiger

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Those that show TICA, do they accept the old style siamese as a separate breed? I know their normal siamese don't look anything like the OP's cat.

And if they got the parents of this cat or the cat themselves, all should have been altered and not bred.
Humm....I looked on the TICA website and i'm starting to wonder if Jasmine's "breeder" was really a breeder....she doens't seem to fit their standards. She was sold as pet quality though and all of the kittens were spayed/netuered according to the former owners because they weren't show quality. Do you think maybe her "breeder" was a BYB? I got to looking around online and now i'm wondering! Is it possible for a BYB to falsify papers maybe? Do you know what papers per say should look/ read like? Is there a standard? I'm curious about all of this because I personally do not breed so I do not know too much about the standard protocol for those types of things. I have been to several cat shows (the organizations I volunteer for always rent a booth and hand out information on our rescue group
- the breeders are always soo sweet and donate!! I love the Cat Fanciers Association show!! It's my favorite!!) I tried to call the number on Jasmine's papers to talk to the breeder and wasn't able to get ahold of her...I got a "this number is no longer in service messge." I'm starting to wonder now if this breeder wasn't so reputable. But who knows! I don't care if Jasmine's papers are accurate or not! She's the sweetest baby ever and I love her to pieces- all that matters to me
/ But i'm just wondering if people who have bought more previous litters from this breeder were maybe scammed?? What do you think? Maybe she is reputable, but I have no idea. I do know that most breeders ask that the cat be returned to them should the owner not be able to keep them ....this didn't happen...instead the owners dropped her off at the shelter I volunteerd at at the time...she came home with me that night (and never went back lol..she adopted me!
) What do you think? You seem very knowledgable on this topic, so I would love your friendly imput! Thankyou for your time and help!!
 

goldenkitty45

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Yes its possible to falisfy papers and yes I would say her "breeders" were not legit reputable ones either - BYB. She might have gotten some of her cats from another breeder as pets and never had them neutered - just bred them.

The result is what Jasmine is. She's a nice and pretty cat, but the result of BY breeding.

Show standards are pretty much the same in most big associations. You can take a look at the CFA website and on the breeds, call up the standard, history, profile, etc. You will find examples of the various breeds too under the profiles - these are usually current winners.
 

gayef

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Those that show TICA, do they accept the old style siamese as a separate breed? I know their normal siamese don't look anything like the OP's cat.

And if they got the parents of this cat or the cat themselves, all should have been altered and not bred.
TICA does not accept the OSS as a separate breed. The OP's cat appears to me to be a pet-quality Seal Torti Point. She would be sold as pet quality due to the fact that she is quite moderate in appearance. That now being said, she is simply gorgeous. That one picture of her with her little paw in the air suggests that she owns what those who happen to know and like Torti's describe as "Torti-tude". And females (which torties normally are), tend to have loads of attitude anyway, especially Siamese girls. Oh and by the way, I do not think that your cat is not fat *grin*, rather she is lucious and huggable.

It is possible that within a litter some moderate kittens would be included. Throw-backs, if you will pardon the expression, to the old standard are not uncommon and IMO do not denote an unacceptable pairing. In order to say the parents should never have been allowed to breed again, I would have to see the rest of the litter.
 

gayef

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Yes its possible to falisfy papers and yes I would say her "breeders" were not legit reputable ones either - BYB. She might have gotten some of her cats from another breeder as pets and never had them neutered - just bred them.

The result is what Jasmine is. She's a nice and pretty cat, but the result of BY breeding.

Show standards are pretty much the same in most big associations. You can take a look at the CFA website and on the breeds, call up the standard, history, profile, etc. You will find examples of the various breeds too under the profiles - these are usually current winners.
Just out of curiosity, what would make you say that her breeders were not legit or reputable? Not trying to be confrontational, just really curious. I don't get this at all from what the OP wrote about her cat and what history she knows of her ... upon what do you base this opinion?

While MOST organizations would consider Jasmine a Siamese, in CFA, she is not. She would be considered a Colorpoint. Additionally, I find the CFA standard for Siamese to be a lot more extreme than in say, TICA or ACA, or even CFF. I've seen some pretty moderate cats take major wins in all of those organizations - so the standard is pretty much up to the individual interpretation of whoever stands in judgment of it, wouldn't you say?
 

gayef

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Originally Posted by StarryEyedTiGeR

Humm....I looked on the TICA website and i'm starting to wonder if Jasmine's "breeder" was really a breeder....she doens't seem to fit their standards. She was sold as pet quality though and all of the kittens were spayed/netuered according to the former owners because they weren't show quality.
This all sounds pretty responsible to me so far. It is absolutely possible for a litter to be produced which doesn't have any kittens showing potential for a show career or for breeding - and if this was the case in Jasmine's litter, then the responsible thing to do is to spay/neuter (or make sure new owners spay/neuter) and place out as a pet. So far, so good on this breeder ...

Do you think maybe her "breeder" was a BYB? I got to looking around online and now i'm wondering! Is it possible for a BYB to falsify papers maybe? Do you know what papers per say should look/ read like? Is there a standard? I'm curious about all of this because I personally do not breed so I do not know too much about the standard protocol for those types of things.
What exactly was it that you were looking around online for? While it is entirely possible for a breeder to falsify documents, the fact is that it doesn't necessarily mean that it happened in Jasmine's case. If you have her registration document, you can PM me the information contained upon it and I am happy to help you figure it out. It should have the Sire and Dam's names as well as registration numbers and if you were curious about your girl's heritage, you could always request a pedigree for her parents. The registration document's appearance would be different for each organization, so there really isn't a standard form, but the information contained upon it should still be essentially the same - it should have the Breeder's Name and contact information, the date of birth, the color, the gender, the breed, the registration number, the sire and dam's information, the owner's name and contact information - it may also state whether or not the cat was sold with breeding rights or if she was registered as a spay.

... tried to call the number on Jasmine's papers to talk to the breeder and wasn't able to get ahold of her...I got a "this number is no longer in service messge." I'm starting to wonder now if this breeder wasn't so reputable.
There are so many reasons why the number could be out of service ... the breeder could have died, she could have disconnected that number when she stopped breeding, she could have moved.

... But i'm just wondering if people who have bought more previous litters from this breeder were maybe scammed?? What do you think? Maybe she is reputable, but I have no idea. I do know that most breeders ask that the cat be returned to them should the owner not be able to keep them ....this didn't happen...instead the owners dropped her off at the shelter I volunteerd at at the time...she came home with me that night (and never went back lol..she adopted me!
)
I think it is safe to say you have a lovely Seal Torti Point spay who is loved and adored by her very attentive Meowmmy. To jump to conclusions about scamming and disreputable behavior is at best, risky and at worst, just plain unfair to the breeder when she isn't here to explain or defend herself.

While I agree that reputable breeders all SHOULD include a "take-back-no-questions-asked" policy on all of their kittens, it is true that some do not. I do know of some long-time, older breeders who still do things *ahem* the old way, and of course, as we have become more sensitive to our animals and their care, we have developed kinder and more gentle ways of doing things ... and just as it is wrong to unfairly judge this breeder when she isn't here, it is also wrong to base your opinion of someone on incomplete data - the breeder may very well have had a take-back agreement with the owners who then didn't tell the breeder they were dropping the kitten off at the shelter. I would think this would say more about the owners than it does the breeder. But then, in fairness to them, maybe they too tried to contact the same phone number you tried and got the same Out of Service message you got and couldn't find the breeder to tell her before they so coldly disposed of that which they no longer desired like so much trash ... sorry, I tend to get somewhat emotional about such things.

Anyway, let me know if I can help you figure out her information, I am always excited by seeing pedigrees - much like people who enjoy researching family lines and ancestry, I get off on Siamese cat pedigrees. Who knew? *wink*
 

booktigger

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I dislike the ingredients in R/D and have had no success with dry food only and diets. As the cat I have on a diet is a foster, he has to have what the rescue provide which is supermarket ones, but he has managed to lose weight on it and a blood test shows he has no organ issues.
 

goldenkitty45

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Gaye

I base it on what I see. The cat is a nice siamese type, but even if its purebred, I cannot see that "bad" (type wise) coming from good quality cats - which IMO tells me the cat's out of pet quality to start and could mean a byb vs a good breeder who has researched lines, etc.

Granted neither of us saw the other littermates nor the parents, but based on what I see, the cat's from a byb. Maybe some byb'rs will neuter/spay but its unlikely. Just cause you have cats registered in an association, doesn't mean they are quality cats - the associations just register the parents/litter but never evaluate what is really produced.


And I do know that none traditional colors in siamese are "colorpoints" in CFA - but they still are siamese IMO
 
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