For Gods sake when will the madness end????

[roguethecat]

 
We have a lot of information on how to correctly balance raw homemade cat food. We have links to sites for recipes, for both raw and home-cooked, and also a thread of recipes, tips, and info from our members who make their own cat food.

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263751/cooked-recipes-thread

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/272287/raw-recipe-thread

one more: http://www.rawlearning.com

 (they talk a lot about dogs, but the principle and the food is the same for cats)

 

[ldg]

@Anne, to your question about processed and even highly-processed meat-meal-based cat foods providing a cat with all the required proteins and/or amino acids, of course they can. It's never been my position that they don't - because opinion has nothing to do with it. The analysis of the food is there, and the cats eating the food are out there, running around, not dead. It provides cats what they need to survive.

...but ultimately, for me, the issue is the difference between surviving and thriving. And personal experience is a very powerful thing.

I developed an interest in feline nutrition and the role of diet in their health in 2010 when we rescued an FIV+ cat that had absolutely horrible, seemingly unresolvable diarrhea. I followed the protocols, I did the novel proteins, and the prescription diets and the hydrolyzed food. And these failed us. Had they not, I would likely be in a very, very different mindset - and likely still uninterested in feline nutrition.

I'm pretty sure you're aware - though many newer to the site are not - I participated in these discussions and debates on the other side of raw in 2010 and 2011, when that's what my holistic vet wanted us to feed Chumley when he healed up and stabilized. I was terrified by what I read about raw - and I can only imagine it's worse now for people new to the idea, with the position of the AVMA, the studies by Tufts and Cornell.... and it was through researching for these discussions that when I turned to researching what goes into pet food, and what can only be described as the horrid state of affairs as regards pet food regulations (which are the same as "animal feed"), I personally could not accept simply having to trust the marketing of a pet food company to rely on whether or not the food they sell is what I want my cats to eat (ETA: because what they are allowed to include in food, vs what the ingredient is called, to me was mind-blowing). Having a 9-year old cat with cancer was just the icing on the cake (though of course I have no idea if food played a role in that or not). But what is allowed in pet food results in my inability to feed it on any regular basis. Does it sustain life? Of course. Absolutely. Is it "healthy?" That's the can of worms, so to speak.

My primary problem with commercial cat food - in general - is the quality (or lack thereof) in ingredients. Additionally, apart from the proteins, fats and minerals, the processing destroys virtually all of vitamins. This is not my opinion, this is quite clear in the discussion of the impact of processing on food in the Nutrient Requirement of Dogs and Cats. (P. 236 "The inactivation of almost all vitamins that occurs in the preparation of extruded foods and canned foods is directly related to the temperature and duration of the processes and the presence of free metals...). And those vitamins are added back with synthetic supplements. There's nothing wrong with this per se. I take vitamins, because I don't feed myself the kind of diet I feed my cats these days.

I'm not sure who said it earlier - I think peaches08 - in clarifying what she meant with the use of the term "natural:" food minimally processed, in a more "natural" format, "whole" food, "fresh" food, etc. It's not that "processing" in and of itself is bad. I eat "ultra processed" foods all the time. But compared to the periods in my life when I ate fresh foods, little sugar, almost all home-made foods from fresh ingredients with a lot of fresh fruit and salad, I absolutely feel completely different from top to bottom, inside and out. If I can experience this difference in myself, is it such a far step to think the same could be true for my companion animals?

For me, there is absolutely a place for science. But because there are no life-time studies, because there are so few studies (and certainly no quality ones - though this new study that I haven't read yet - who knows?) of fresh vs commercial, because pet food labeling is so poor, because what is allowed in pet food is so .... potentially unacceptable to me, at some point, experience and just plain old common sense have to be a factor - in my opinion.

Is the "natural" diet of a feral cat the best diet to model for our indoor cats? I don't know. But apart from the known science of their nutritional requirements, it is all we have to help determine what will likely be the best - from a long term health and well-being standpoint - to feed them. In making choices for my cats, I combine known science with my experience and what I consider to be common sense. And while there is no way to know if this choice is the right one, or is any factor in the current health of my cats, I do have - knock wood for all of these - a kitty that was treated for large cell lymphoma with chemotherapy that is approaching three years in remission. I have a kitty with an autoimmune disease that causes anemia not only in remission (no medication), but with a hematocrit of 42%. I have a cat with asthma completely controlled with no medication. I have a FLUTD/cystitis cat with no recent flares, no litter box problems, proper urine pH, no evidence of crystals, and what seemed to be developing into chronic infections with no infections; and, finally, an FIV cat that appears to be thriving. Granted, he's only been with us four years and is only about 8 years old.

I am completely unable to divorce "meeting a cat's needs" from a cat's well-being at this point in time. And, as I said earlier, personal experience is a very powerful thing. Did I expect to see a change in my cats' behavior when I switched to raw? No. But I did. A rather profound one - probably amplified by our home containing a relatively rather large amount of indoor-only pets in a very small space. (Two people and when we transitioned to raw, 8 cats, living in an RV). And perhaps most importantly, I didn't have that thought in my head to influence what I saw. Yet when I participated in the discussions of what the best diet for a cat is, I argued that my cats were thriving. And at the time, they had been transitioned to an all-canned, supposedly high quality food diet. I'd seen the change from being free-fed prescription c/d dry with 2 small meals of wet food (also c/d) a day. Why I felt the difference between a fresh-food diet and that "high quality" canned diet wouldn't see more changes, I don't really know. So my only thought on that is - unless you have fed the diet, you cannot make the claim that your cats are thriving in the same way.

Does being fed raw matter? I don't know. I didn't start by feeding cooked with human grade ingredients, so I have no basis for comparison.

Is a "little bit of kibble" going to harm a cat? No, probably not. Everything in moderation, as they say.

In the end, we can point to the science and say - amino acids are amino acids. The format in which they are delivered make little difference to their blood serum levels of nutrients. The studies indicate commercial foods of just about any quality provide a cat what it needs, despite the source. If processed properly, and built in the right combinations, we can create "better" or "worse" foods. Cat food will sustain life. Genes (and environment) will contribute to how well a cat does or doesn't do on any particular diet, and how long kitty will live. But the food we feed them will determine how well those genes manage aging.

Did I answer your question? :lol3:

I, too, enjoy the discussion. And it keeps me honest.

 

[ldg]

There are a few further points I'd like to address.

Aaand, we're back. :lol3:

I asked this before but where is it written that dry food should be considered a source of moisture for cats?

Why do you keep asking this question? No one has claimed that kibble is supposed to do anything other than provide nutrition. The issue is that many cats do not drink sufficient water to maintain .... let's say, dilute enough urine to prevent crystals from irritating the bladder wall, causing painful cystitis in females and potentially blocking males when they eat a diet that is composed 100% of dry food. Known science indicates that cats do not have a sufficient thirst drive to maintain a proper water balance when fed food that does not provide enough water to maintain that water balance. Of course there are exceptions to the rule.

Dry food was not designed for this purpose, but is another form of nutrition. Sufficient water intake is partly the responsibility of the cat, and cat carer if a cat is not inclined to drink water.

Dry food was designed as a convenience. No thought was given to a cat's needs. The science came later.

I'd like to correct some assumptions people may have about meat sources in dry food, based on the above comments, and those in the post about Peterson's study :

1. Not all dry food is composed of 'meat meal', or contains grains. NV does not contain meat meal but meat. Orijen contains both meat and meat meal.

Nature's Variety Instinct Kibble - Chicken. http://www.instinctpetfood.com/product/instinct-grain-free-kibble-cat-food-chicken

Ingredients: Chicken meal, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Tapioca, Chicken, Menhaden Fish Meal....

:dk:

I've yet to see a kibble that didn't contain some kind of meal. Ingredients are listed in order of weight. So even if chicken were the first ingredient, it is approximately 73% water (if mostly meat) - thus chicken meal, even as a 3rd, 4th, or 5th ingredient in the list likely provides the bulk of the nutrition. But you need to know, because you're under the mistaken impression that NV Instinct kibble foods do not contain XYZ meals - they do.

Meat meal is a rendered product using the whole carcass of a chicken, or parts of beef, rabbit, etc. The rendering process removes the moisture content of the meat, which when ground, results in a highly concentrated meal that is then added to the mix and processed to make kibble.

Being technical, the AAFCO definition of chicken meal is "chicken which has been ground or otherwise reduced in particle size." http://cats.about.com/od/catfoodglossary/g/chickenmeal.htm

It doesn't necessarily include whole chicken carcasses.

And, in fact, it may not be "just" carcasses leftover from human food production (not that you said it was!), but chickens that died on the farm or diseased chickens that didn't pass USDA inspection:

FDA Compliance Policy Guidelines: CPG Sec. 675.400 Rendered Animal Feed Ingredients http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyGuidanceManual/ucm074717.htm

"No regulatory action will be considered for animal feed ingredients resulting from the ordinary rendering process of industry, including those using animals which have died otherwise than by slaughter, provided they are not otherwise in violation of the law."

Though to be fair, it isn't only rendered ingredients that are subject to potential inclusion of diseased/downed animals. Canned food can too:

FDA Compliance Policy Guidelines: CPG Sec. 690.300 Canned Pet Food http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyGuidanceManual/ucm074710.htm

"Pet food consisting of material from diseased animals or animals which have died otherwise than by slaughter, which is in violation of 402(a)(5) will not ordinarily be actionable, if it is not otherwise in violation of the law. It will be considered fit for animal consumption."

 

[zoneout]

 
How is a longer digestive tract, automatically an indicator of disease? You are talking about a physical attribute which receives food. This doesn't make sense?

Simple.  Let`s say you have a runny nose.   This is an indicator of disease such as a viral infection or perhaps a disorder such as an allergy like hayfever.    Healthy people don`t normally walk around with runny-noses.  Likewise, healthy cats do not have elongated digestive tracts (particularly with poor tissue tone and elasticity) as referenced above in the Pottenger study.

 

[zoneout]

 
Aaand, we're back.

I asked this before but where is it written that dry food should be considered a source of moisture for cats? Dry food was not designed for this purpose, but is another form of nutrition. Sufficient water intake is partly the responsibility of the cat, and cat carer if a cat is not inclined to drink water.

And how exactly is the average cat and/or caretaker supposed to know what constitutes `sufficient water intake`?     I know, maybe some enterprising soul can invent a cat hydrometer that you insert in their butt and monitors hydration levels.   (might even be on Amazon already...lets see....)

 

[zoneout]

 
Ive not read all of this but found it very interesting.
As a previous feeder of Raw, to my old huskies, I am very aware about the not so good side of commercial feeds for animals.

I now own two cats, one very healthy, loving friendly nearly 5 yr old Ginger female, and a very poorly 20wk old ginger female (unrelated)

My older cat , Drew , is self sufficient. She catches prey daily, she eats and enjoys them. I very very rarely supplement her diet, but if I do its usually meat, most often cooked though. I dont tell people this as it seems like cruelty, but if you met my cat you'd see shes the picture of health, and still very loving, not feral at all. She sleeps on the sofa all day and hunts all night, like a cat should!

My baby kitten Delilah was eating a tinned kitten food, she stumbled across some dry biscuits that were around for Drew, from when she was confined to the house following a fight injury.

I hate biscuits, long term, my mothers cat died of kidney problems, which I attribute to eating soley cat biscuits (kibble) his whole life so its not something I use often.

Baby Delilah swelled up all bloated and had severe diarrhea from eating these biscuits. She seemed ok again 2 days later, but lethargic. Then back came the bloating and severe diarrhea and 10 weeks later shes just got over an anal prolapse but cant stomach food or gain weight. The vets wanted to put her to sleep.
I told myself it wasnt the biscuits, it was coincidence, there was something else going on, but as time has gone by it seems she just has a defective gut, and needs TLC to improve. I blame the biscuits

I will NEVER give my cats dry food again

Delilah is moving onto meat broth then raw rabbit, in a hope to heal her gut, and probiotics.

Hi, and welcome aboard.  I really am very sorry and totally understand the agony you are going through with Delilah.    I went through something similar with my older cat that had a defective gut.   Your plan for meat broth is a great place to start.   It is very gentle on gut.    It immediately seemed to soothe my poor kitty who wasnt eating at the time.   The one I used was called the Introductory diet.   It is important to use as much bone marrow as possible in the broth.    The marrow is what lends most of the restorative properties to the broth.    Also be aware of the fat levels in the broth.   Most recommendations I have seen are for low-fat.

One suggestion is to put your location into the member profile.    This helps us to easily reconcile differences in terms (ie biscuits vs kibble).

Sending good vibes to Delilah for a full recovery.

 

[zoneout]

 
I think cats always take a while to kill their prey.  I have heard, don't know if it's true, but behaviorists believe that kitties instinct to do that is so they aren't hurt when they go in for the actual kill then feeding.  The prey is so exhausted they won't be bitten.

Certainly an evolutionary deviation from African and other big cats that immediately go for the jugular.   I think the truth is cats just wanna have fun.     

 

 

[oneandahalfcats]

There are a few further points I'd like to address.
Why do you keep asking this question? No one has claimed that kibble is supposed to do anything other than provide nutrition. The issue is that many cats do not drink sufficient water to maintain .... let's say, dilute enough urine to prevent crystals from irritating the bladder wall, causing painful cystitis in females and potentially blocking males when they eat a diet that is composed 100% of dry food. Known science indicates that cats do not have a sufficient thirst drive to maintain a proper water balance when fed food that does not provide enough water to maintain that water balance. Of course there are exceptions to the rule.
Dry food was designed as a convenience. No thought was given to a cat's needs. The science came later.
Nature's Variety Instinct Kibble - Chicken. http://www.instinctpetfood.com/product/instinct-grain-free-kibble-cat-food-chicken

 

[oneandahalfcats]

 
Simple.  Let`s say you have a runny nose.   This is an indicator of disease such as a viral infection or perhaps a disorder such as an allergy like hayfever.    Healthy people don`t normally walk around with runny-noses.  Likewise, healthy cats do not have elongated digestive tracts (particularly with poor tissue tone and elasticity) as referenced above in the Pottenger study.

You are trying to be funny with this comparison, right?

Because a runny nose is a symptom, not a disease. It could be from being out in the cold and as the result of dry air conditions. A runny nose could be one symptom from a head cold, which IS a form of viral disease. But an elongated digestive tract, as you put it, is just a change in biology. If cats have evolved to develop a longer digestive tract, than their ancestors, then ALL cats have this. This has nothing to do with healthy versus diseased.

 
And how exactly is the average cat and/or caretaker supposed to know what constitutes `sufficient water intake`?     I know, maybe some enterprising soul can invent a cat hydrometer that you insert in their butt and monitors hydration levels.   (might even be on Amazon already...lets see....)

The same way that people learn how much food to feed their cat? This involves knowing your cat's weight and calculating calories. With water intake it is somewhat the same as far as calculating amount. Testing involves doing a scruff test, looking for sunken eyes, checking gums? Really, its not rocket science. People should be testing their cats for dehydration, regardless of the diet they are fed, and ensuring that cats have plenty of fresh water to drink from a bowl or water fountain, or as an addition in their food. 

 

[ldg]

And how exactly is the average cat and/or caretaker supposed to know what constitutes `sufficient water intake`?     I know, maybe some enterprising soul can invent a cat hydrometer that you insert in their butt and monitors hydration levels.   (might even be on Amazon already...lets see....):hi:

The same way that people learn how much food to feed their cat? This involves knowing your cat's weight and calculating calories. With water intake it is somewhat the same as far as calculating amount. Testing involves doing a scruff test, looking for sunken eyes, checking gums? Really, its not rocket science. People should be testing their cats for dehydration, regardless of the diet they are fed, and ensuring that cats have plenty of fresh water to drink from a bowl or water fountain, or as an addition in their food. 

The scruff test is NOT an indicator of whether or not a cat is sufficiently hydrated. The scruff test will indicate if a cat is dehydrated. This is a very, very important distinction. Same stands for all of the other symptoms - those are symptoms of a dehydrated cat. A cat with mild, chronic dehydration will not appear dehydrated. Eyes are not sunken, gums are fine, and skin snaps back.

If one is inclined to figure it out, they can use math to calculate how many ounces of water a day their cat should be drinking. Take any food that isn't 63% or more moisture, and work from the amount of dry matter in it. The amount of moisture needed to bring it up to 63% moisture is the amount of water the cat needs to drink just to maintain its water balance - that is not the amount needed to be properly hydrated. The amount will be slightly different for all kibble and each cat, as it depends on the volume eaten.

A general guideline is that for a cat eating only kibble, to equal the hydration equivalent of a cat eating wet food, they will need about 8 ounces of water a day. The volume is about one cup.

So if your cat's diet is 25% dry, kitty needs to drink about 1/4 cup of water a day to maintain proper hydration - not just the proper water balance.

This is discussed in the article Anne linked to earlier: Tips to Increase Your Cat's Water Intake. There is a section, "How Much Water is Enough?"

 

[ldg]

I ask the question because you keep mentioning dry food and the fact that it contains 10% moisture, like there is some unspoken expectation that it should be a source of moisture. You can't say how many cats are drinking a sufficient amount of water, you can only speculate. My cats drank water when on nothing but dry, and they still drink water when on the majority of wet?

My cats continued to drink water when they were eating only wet food, too. Now eating raw, only 2 or 3 of them continue to drink any water, yet their urine output went up. I think the ingredients impact how much water the body needs to process the food it is metabolizing.


Oneandahalfcats, if people choose to feed dry food or have no choice but to feed dry food ... I hope they make informed choices. What I object to is the notion that a cat will drink sufficient water when fed dry. Yours do. That's excellent. The literature on the subject, the studies that were done, the authorities that publish on the subject, indicate that cats, as a species, cannot be counted on to drink water to meet their needs unless it is provided in the food they eat. The leading vets studying FLUTD and FIC do not recommend that dry be an exclusive diet for a cat that has had problems with crystals. So... should people just go ahead and feed dry food without worrying about it - until there's a problem, and THEN, after the potential $1,000s in vet bills, THEN worry about water intake or add moist food to the diet?

Of course not.

Yes, it is up to us, as their caretakers, to ensure they drink sufficient water.


...but the point of this entire thread is that many vets indicate that dry food as a good diet for a cat - even preferable - without mentioning the need to ensure how much water they drink, the consequences of not drinking sufficient water, and without defining how much water they need.

*I* sure didn't know or understand any of that, and my vet didn't bring it up when we talked about what to feed our cats. It was only once the boys blocked that it was suggested we add wet food to the diet. That is the problem.

 

[oneandahalfcats]

The scruff test is NOT an indicator of whether or not a cat is sufficiently hydrated. The scruff test will indicate if a cat is dehydrated. This is a very, very important distinction. Same stands for all of the other symptoms - those are symptoms of a dehydrated cat. A cat with mild, chronic dehydration will not appear dehydrated. Eyes are not sunken, gums are fine, and skin snaps back.

 

[oneandahalfcats]

Oneandahalfcats, if people choose to feed dry food or have no choice but to feed dry food ... I hope they make informed choices. What I object to is the notion that a cat will drink sufficient water when fed dry. Yours do. That's excellent. The literature on the subject, the studies that were done, the authorities that publish on the subject, indicate that cats, as a species, cannot be counted on to drink water to meet their needs unless it is provided in the food they eat. The leading vets studying FLUTD and FIC do not recommend that dry be an exclusive diet for a cat that has had problems with crystals. So... should people just go ahead and feed dry food without worrying about it - until there's a problem, and THEN, after the potential $1,000s in vet bills, THEN worry about water intake or add moist food to the diet?
 

Absolutely not.

I have always been of the opinion that if people are going to take on the responsibility for an animal, that part of that responsibility is to inform themselves about all aspects of health and nutrition. This involves learning about what a cat's basic needs are, beyond the requirement for food. Not relying on the say-so of a vet, but being engaged and taking the time to learn about the different aspects of cat care. Isn't this what we do when we bring humans into this world? Many eager new mothers find out all they can so they can be effective mothers in raising healthy babies? In my opinion, it should be no different for animals. I know some people do not agree with feeding dry food.That's fine. But I think people can feed some good quality dry food, as part of a diet, and they can do this by being informed about good choices.   

 

[ldg]

I don't disagree. But we shouldn't trust our vets? I trusted mine.

Of course, I have *since* learned they receive very little training in nutrition, and for most, that training is sponsored by either Hill's Pet or Royal Canin. But while I agree in theory - people should educate themselves - I also think many people feel they should be able to trust their vets.

 

[zoneout]

 

 
You are trying to be funny with this comparison, right?

Because a runny nose is a symptom, not a disease. It could be from being out in the cold and as the result of dry air conditions. A runny nose could be one symptom from a head cold, which IS a form of viral disease. But an elongated digestive tract, as you put it, is just a change in biology. If cats have evolved to develop a longer digestive tract, than their ancestors, then ALL cats have this. This has nothing to do with healthy versus diseased.

I guess everything has to be spelled out around here....   Directly from Merriam-Webster:

Full Definition of SYMPTOM

1

a  :   subjective evidence of disease or physical disturbance;broadly  :   something that indicates the presence of bodily disorder

 

[zoneout]

 
The same way that people learn how much food to feed their cat? This involves knowing your cat's weight and calculating calories. With water intake it is somewhat the same as far as calculating amount. Testing involves doing a scruff test, looking for sunken eyes, checking gums? Really, its not rocket science. People should be testing their cats for dehydration, regardless of the diet they are fed, and ensuring that cats have plenty of fresh water to drink from a bowl or water fountain, or as an addition in their food. 

I don`t know what to say.   The word flabbergasted keeps flashing across my frontal lobes.     First, problems from moisture insufficiency (for example concentrated urine) are going to develop well before the outward signs of acute dehydration appear - so even if someone knows about the scruff test and other checks - they are useless in preventing damage from chronic moisture deprivation that dry food has the potential to instigate.

Having bowls of water out,  fountains, even leaving the lid on the toilet open for the cats who prefer that as a water source guarantees nothing.   The fact of the matter is cats have a low thirst drive and were designed to get moisture from the food they eat.    There were no sources of water for the ancestral desert cat other than from the prey it caught - unless they lucked into an oasis or got caught in one of the very few rainy seasons - not very reliable sources of moisture for them.

 

[zoneout]

 
Absolutely not.

I have always been of the opinion that if people are going to take on the responsibility for an animal, that part of that responsibility is to inform themselves about all aspects of health and nutrition. This involves learning about what a cat's basic needs are, beyond the requirement for food. Not relying on the say-so of a vet, but being engaged and taking the time to learn about the different aspects of cat care.  I know some people do not agree with feeding dry food.That's fine. But I think people can feed some good quality dry food, as part of a diet, and they can do this by being informed about good choices.   

I think you presume a level of sophistication in new cat owners that by and large does not exist.   Sadly, for most people, if they get any information at all, it will be coming in the form of advertising directly from a manufacturer or else advice from a kid working in Petco.   Either way, the future outcome for having a healthy-thriving pet is bleak.

 

[zoneout]

I don't disagree. But we shouldn't trust our vets? I trusted mine.

Of course, I have *since* learned they receive very little training in nutrition, and for most, that training is sponsored by either Hill's Pet or Royal Canin. But while I agree in theory - people should educate themselves - I also think many people feel they should be able to trust their vets.

Absolutely not.  I wouldn`t trust any of them.  Especially if it is a new relationship.   How do you know your vet is actually working with your pet in the backroom - and not some disgruntled veterinary tech?     

Trust needs to be earned.   If over a period of time things are working well then as time goes by they can earn more of your trust.   But you always need to be cautious.   People make mistakes and doctors and vets are human last time I checked - unfortunately we afford them God-like status to our own detriment.  Remember 50% of the vets out there graduated in the lower half of their class .   You protect yourself and your pet by becoming educated.   This allows you to check what they are doing and ask proper questions. 

Yes, people feel they should be able to trust their vets and their doctors for that matter - but it is naive to think they are all-knowing and perfect beings.    This is why the concept of `second-opinion` exists.   Not all vets - or doctors - or people think alike or have the same background or experience.   

 

[stewball]

Beautiful companions, Stewball. 

Just remember... there are people who smoke their entire life and never get cancer, and then are people (like my brother and grandmother) who NEVER smoked and die of lung cancer. You just never know.

That much being said, we all make choices we believe are appropriate knowing the risks (or our perception of the risks). Like whether to purchase pet health insurance. Choices.

Can't get it for cats here. It's a doggy country.

 

[jcat]

I don't disagree. But we shouldn't trust our vets? I trusted mine.

Of course, I have *since* learned they receive very little training in nutrition, and for most, that training is sponsored by either Hill's Pet or Royal Canin.

I think this statement has to be qualified, because what may apply to some or even many vets in the U.S. doesn't necessarily do so to vets trained in other countries, and it also depends on the U.S. veterinary school and the electives or post-grad courses the vet chose while training. I've spoken with U.S. vets who did have nutritional training in vet school that wasn't "sponsored by Hill's or Royal Canin".

There's a list of vet schools with nutrition programs here: 7 Great Schools with Vet Nutrition Programs, so obviously training by board-certified nutritionists is available. The individual websites of those schools give more details.

The question, of course, is whether the vet students took advantage of the opportunities available, but blanket statements aren't helpful.