Need to understand raw diet....

[mickeys mom]

My cat Mickey, is 17 and half years old and has recently gotten hyperthyroidism and he also has a mild case of a kidney issue. He lost a lot of weight in the past 6 months he went from 16 lbs to 11 lbs in 6 months.  So on December 27th I brought him to the vet for an exam and blood work. That's when she told me what was going on with Mickey.  He was put on 2.5 mg of methimazole and after he was on this pill medication for 3 days he lost his appetite and wouldn't eat. So I emailed the doctor and she told me to stop giving him the methimazole and see if it will help get his appetite back. That's what I did, and sure enough...he started to want food. But, he would only eat a couple of laps of Wellness canned food and than he didn't want anymore.  So in order to get him to eat I read a lot about feeding him a raw diet. So I'm not sure if I went about it in the right way, but I bought him some natural chicken thighs and breast that are raised on a vegetable diet only and cage free without any hormones or steroids and no by-products. I rinsed it off and cut some up in very small pieces and offered it to Mickey, and he loved it and ate about 2.5 ounces!  But, he hasn't done any poops in like 4 days.  So I brought him back to the vet last night and she did a blood pressure check and he was normal and than she gave him some fluids under his skin with some vitamin B's.  About 9:00 last night he had done a very small but dry poop. Mickey, is not himself and seems depressed.

Can Mickey be strictly on this type of diet?  My doctor didn't have any type of recipe for making a cat food for Mickey that wasn't complete and balanced but than again what I'm giving him that he craves is not a complete and balanced diet either.  Also, how often can he get fluid put under his skin to help with hydration? 

Thank you so much for any help you can provide for Mickey and me!

 

[raintyger]

I don't know how the hyperthyroidism would play into the equations, but I do know for normal healthy cats:

Raw feeding reduces the amount of poop. I am not sure about the 4 days, though, that seems kinda long. I seem to recall someone on the forum saying theirs did every 2nd or 3rd day, but I'm not sure.

You cannot simply feed raw meat. There's A LOT of other nutrients needed. www.catinfo.org is where a lot of people start reading about cat nutrition and raw feeding. If you want to feed raw, I would consult with a holistic vet for a diet considering the hyperthyroidism.
 

 

[blueyedgirl5946]

My cat Mickey, is 17 and half years old and has recently gotten hyperthyroidism and he also has a mild case of a kidney issue. He lost a lot of weight in the past 6 months he went from 16 lbs to 11 lbs in 6 months.  So on December 27th I brought him to the vet for an exam and blood work. That's when she told me what was going on with Mickey.  He was put on 2.5 mg of methimazole and after he was on this pill medication for 3 days he lost his appetite and wouldn't eat. So I emailed the doctor and she told me to stop giving him the methimazole and see if it will help get his appetite back. That's what I did, and sure enough...he started to want food. But, he would only eat a couple of laps of Wellness canned food and than he didn't want anymore.  So in order to get him to eat I read a lot about feeding him a raw diet. So I'm not sure if I went about it in the right way, but I bought him some natural chicken thighs and breast that are raised on a vegetable diet only and cage free without any hormones or steroids and no by-products. I rinsed it off and cut some up in very small pieces and offered it to Mickey, and he loved it and ate about 2.5 ounces!  But, he hasn't done any poops in like 4 days.  So I brought him back to the vet last night and she did a blood pressure check and he was normal and than she gave him some fluids under his skin with some vitamin B's.  About 9:00 last night he had done a very small but dry poop. Mickey, is not himself and seems depressed.

Can Mickey be strictly on this type of diet?  My doctor didn't have any type of recipe for making a cat food for Mickey that wasn't complete and balanced but than again what I'm giving him that he craves is not a complete and balanced diet either.  Also, how often can he get fluid put under his skin to help with hydration? 

Thank you so much for any help you can provide for Mickey and me!

So what are you going to do to treat your cat for the hyperthyroidism

 

[ldg]

A raw diet is probably best for your kitty, actually. This blog is written by not just "a" veterinary endocrinologist - it's written by the man that first diagnosed hyperthyrodism in cats, and pioneered radioactive iodine treatment. Is that something you can consider or afford, given Mickey's adverve reaction to the methamaizole?

Here are several posts on the topic:

"Optimal Protein Requirements for Older Cats and Cats with Hyperthyroidism" http://endocrinevet.blogspot.no/2011/11/optimal-protein-requirements-for-older.html

Why cats need high protein: "Can Increasing the Amount of Fat or Carbohydrate in a Cat's Diet Compensate for Low Protein Intake?" http://endocrinevet.blogspot.com/se...0-05:00&max-results=20&start=14&by-date=false


There are a number of ways to feed raw food. You can either buy commercial food, which is already balanced and complete.

Making homemade, you can go two ways: ground (for which Dr. Pierson has a recipe on her website), or what is called "Prey Model Raw," or "frankenprey" (same thing as prey model raw). This is not overly difficult to do. http://catcentric.org/nutrition-and-food/raw-feeding/raw-feeding-your-cat-just-the-basics/


If he loves what you've given him, you may want to go this route.

http://catcentric.org/nutrition-and-food/raw-feeding/getting-started-tips-for-frankenprey-feeding/
http://catcentric.org/nutrition-and-food/raw-feeding/a-frankenprey-and-whole-prey-feeding-guide/


I feed homemade raw, prey model raw. I feed them chicken breast, chicken thigh, turkey breast & thigh, pork (usually loin, that's always what's on sale), beef, venison, rabbit, goat, cornish hen, quail, liver, kidney, raw egg yolks, and sardines. The egg yolks and sardines are an important component of the diet, providing needed omega 3s and vitamin D. The organs (liver and kidney, or another secreting organ), are nutrition packed, and provide the vitamin A. Calcium can be provided with bone-in meals (chicken wings make this pretty easy), or you can use a calcium supplement (though cats do seem to love crunching those little bones!). Many people provide mostly poultry proteins - but to help make it balanced, it's best to have at least three proteins in rotation, and to use different parts of those animals.

The not pooping for four days sounds like he was constipated... which would be rather odd, if you didn't feed him any bone. It's usually too much calcium in a raw diet that makes a cat constipated.

What was he eating before? Sometimes during the transition, a kitty may need a little fiber. A tablespoon of pumpkin may do the trick.

I'm asking a moderator to move this to the raw feeding forum - and please feel free to ask ANY questions!

Oh - and if you live in the U.S., you can search for a holistic vet here: http://www.ahvma.org

 

[mickeys mom]

Thanks Raintyger, for the info. I did look on the Internet for a local place to buy a complete and balanced raw diet food for Mickey.  I found one place not too far from me that sells "Rad Cat" so I bought one container until I know he will eat it, than I will get more.  I got the chicken for now.  Also, I got him a couple of cans of Evo food, to give him while the frozen Rad Cat is thawing out and he seems to like the Evo so far.  Sometimes he likes the grain free canned food I get him, but than when I refrigerate the rest of it, he may not like it anymore.  Sometimes it's trial and error with some cats and Mickey, is one of them! 

 

 

[mickeys mom]

So what are you going to do to treat your cat for the hyperthyroidism

I talked with my vet about this and since he's in the very early stages of the hyperthyroidism she said, it can wait for a little while. She also said it's more important that he eat a good food and get hydrated enough to make a normal poop. I'm also very happy to say that Mickey, just made a normal poop about 20 minutes ago. !  I can't believe that I'm so excited about him making a poop but I am.

  The vet told me that once he is eating and going poop normal than she will try with something that is put on his ear for hyperthyroidism treatment.

 

[mickeys mom]

Hi LDG, 

I can't really afford the radioactive Iodine treatment and my vet is okay with that since the T-4 level for Mickey is 4.3 and she thought it could be treated with medication and a good diet.  Right now since I'm so new to giving Mickey a raw diet, I will try giving him the Rad Cat and see how that goes. If it becomes too expensive I will look into making my own but I would need to purchase a meat grinder and that's a bit pricey, so I will see what happens with the Rad Cat.  Thank you so much for all the information you provided me, I do appreciate it!

Mickeys Mom

 

[raintyger]

Thanks Raintyger, for the info. I did look on the Internet for a local place to buy a complete and balanced raw diet food for Mickey.  I found one place not too far from me that sells "Rad Cat" so I bought one container until I know he will eat it, than I will get more.  I got the chicken for now.  Also, I got him a couple of cans of Evo food, to give him while the frozen Rad Cat is thawing out and he seems to like the Evo so far.  Sometimes he likes the grain free canned food I get him, but than when I refrigerate the rest of it, he may not like it anymore.  Sometimes it's trial and error with some cats and Mickey, is one of them! 

 

You're welcome! After I posted I thought that maybe another option would be commercial prepared raw, at least until you can learn how to make your own. So glad you found Rad Cat. It's not really available in my area, but I hear it's wonderful.

Maybe you can save up for the radioactive treatment if you make your own food. From what I know it's not always an option, but it sounds like the best one if cost is not a factor.

You do not necessarily need a meat grinder to make your own cat food. You can put the meat in a food processor and use premixes (essentially the supplements, but in a convenient commercially made mix). TCFeline is a premix I used once. Of course, buying the premix is more expensive than getting the supplements and adding them yourself.

 

[mickeys mom]

You're welcome! After I posted I thought that maybe another option would be commercial prepared raw, at least until you can learn how to make your own. So glad you found Rad Cat. It's not really available in my area, but I hear it's wonderful.

Maybe you can save up for the radioactive treatment if you make your own food. From what I know it's not always an option, but it sounds like the best one if cost is not a factor.

You do not necessarily need a meat grinder to make your own cat food. You can put the meat in a food processor and use premixes (essentially the supplements, but in a convenient commercially made mix). TCFeline is a premix I used once. Of course, buying the premix is more expensive than getting the supplements and adding them yourself.

Raintyger...That is amazing the information you sent me on TCFeline! I have so much to learn and I can't wait to learn all about it. There are different choices for the premixes I'm not even sure yet which one is best. I also didn't even think about my food processor that's a wonderful idea.  Mickey and I thank you so very much. Yes, the Rad Cat is pricey but a good measure to take compared to what I was giving him, and when I learn more about making my own cat food I surely will take that route. 

 

[just mike]

You can find information and discussion on raw diet here on TCS at this forum http://www.thecatsite.com/t/253041/cats-with-food-allergies#post_3292450

 

[carolina]

You can find information and discussion on raw diet here on TCS at this forum http://www.thecatsite.com/t/253041/cats-with-food-allergies#post_3292450

I think you meant to post the link to the Raw Forum Mike.... Here it is: http://www.thecatsite.com/f/65/raw-feeding-for-cats

 

[carolina]

Mickeys Mom, you don't need a food processor to make your own food. Like LDG, I feed a home made diet, and I don't have a processor either - I do not feed bones. I supplement my diet with eggshell powder for calcium, and feed them chunks of meat. You can use premixes, or you can feed meat/bone/organs or like me and Laurie (LDG), Meat, Calcium, organs. I also give Omega3 - in Krill oil. Instead of egg yolks, I give mine egg lecithin. You can sprinkle the premixes on the chunks of meat instead of mixing it in the ground recipe... I actually used one from Wysong, called Call of the Wild, for quite a while and worked very well. It is certainly an easy way to balance a meal when first starting out. :nod:

Rad Cat, as far as comercial goes is my favorite - amazing food! If you want to cut down costs and still have great quality, but more options, you might want to check out Hare Today www.hare-today.com You do need to get their supplement which is called Alnutrin to balance the food.

I feed a variety of meats....
They LOVE their raw diet, and have been amazing for them, and literally a life-saver for one of them.

Make sure to introduce raw slowly...... Thik of introducing raw just like you introduce a new kibble - increasing it little by little.

 

[mickeys mom]

Well that didn't go very well!  This morning I got out the Rad Cat and it was all thawed out and gave a small amount of it to Mickey, and he turned his nose up at it and walked away, he didn't even try it.  So I pulled out the chucks of raw chicken that I have been feeding him, he came running and he ate all of it.  Than he walked over to his water dish drank some water and went to lay down for a cat nap.

  Can I mix some of the canned cat food which is Chicken and Turkey Evo that he does like with the Rad Cat and not have any problems with it?  Maybe mixing it will get him to at least try it. Or maybe I should just give him the plain raw chicken and a side dish of his canned for a complete balanced diet. I'm really not sure what to do.

The other raw food I saw at the store was called Bravo but I haven't read about that one here on this site, so I'm not sure if I should even try it. As for giving Mickey, organs I'm not very familiar with doing that and not sure what to give him or where to get organs. I sure would like to be able to switch him to a strictly raw diet, but I can see that will take a while, if I even get to that point with Mickey. At his age he just doesn't like much and he is your typical finicky kitty.  At least he likes eating the natural raw chicken and he does like some wet canned cat foods. I took him off of the dry food "Taste of the Wild" about a month ago and have been giving him only wet canned food but when he was diagnosed with the hyperthyroidism and a mild kidney issue lost his appetite I started looking into a raw diet. But, it's not going as planned as I would want it...but is going as my sweet little Mickey, wants it. I love him so much

and that's why I want him eating a healthy diet. If only he would understand and get it in his sweet little angel head. 

 

 

[mickeys mom]

Mickeys Mom, you don't need a food processor to make your own food. Like LDG, I feed a home made diet, and I don't have a processor either - I do not feed bones. I supplement my diet with eggshell powder for calcium, and feed them chunks of meat. You can use premixes, or you can feed meat/bone/organs or like me and Laurie (LDG), Meat, Calcium, organs. I also give Omega3 - in Krill oil. Instead of egg yolks, I give mine egg lecithin. You can sprinkle the premixes on the chunks of meat instead of mixing it in the ground recipe... I actually used one from Wysong, called Call of the Wild, for quite a while and worked very well. It is certainly an easy way to balance a meal when first starting out.

Rad Cat, as far as comercial goes is my favorite - amazing food! If you want to cut down costs and still have great quality, but more options, you might want to check out Hare Today www.hare-today.com You do need to get their supplement which is called Alnutrin to balance the food.
I feed a variety of meats....
They LOVE their raw diet, and have been amazing for them, and literally a life-saver for one of them.
Make sure to introduce raw slowly...... Thik of introducing raw just like you introduce a new kibble - increasing it little by little.

Carolina, What you are saying is that, I can mix chunks of chicken and liver with calcium and krill oil and not have it ground up?  Where do you get the Krill Oil & Egg Shell Powder from and at what amount do you put in? Is it possible to give me a recipe to get me started? Or maybe I should start out like you did with the Call of the Wild sprinkled on the raw chunks of meat?  I guess I'm very confused as to how to go about making my own cat food without grinding it. Seems like Mickey, prefers the chunks of chicken over a pate'. Thank you!

 

[carolina]

Carolina, What you are saying is that, I can mix chunks of chicken and liver with calcium and krill oil and not have it ground up?  Where do you get the Krill Oil & Egg Shell Powder from and at what amount do you put in? Is it possible to give me a recipe to get me started? Or maybe I should start out like you did with the Call of the Wild sprinkled on the raw chunks of meat?  I guess I'm very confused as to how to go about making my own cat food without grinding it. Seems like Mickey, prefers the chunks of chicken over a pate'. Thank you!

Right - you can just sprinkle the calcium over the chunks of meat and organ - that's what I do.
If you use Call of the wild, you don't even need to feed any organs - you only need to feed muscle meat, and call of the wild will balance it out. My meals were 1.5oz each, and it takes 1/2 TSP of Call of the wild to balance a meal. Just sprinkle it over and you are done.
Make sure to feed a variety of meats - I feed turkey breast and legs, chicken breast, duck hearts, pork, lamb, turkey hearts, Venison, and now I added Pork hearts.
Mine don't like liver or can't deal with it, so I give them freeze dried liver - they love it.
Liver has to be 5% of their total food intake - just remember that.
Normally, if you feed bones, it would be 80% muscle meat/10% bone/5% liver, 5% other secreting organ - which can be kidney, brain, spleen, pancreas....
I do not feed bones, so my diet is pretty much 95% Muscle meat, 5% Liver, supplemented with Calcium.
In addition I give them Krill Oil, Probiotics, Egg Lecithin for hair balls and for Bugsy, Slippery Elm Bark for Hair Balls as well.

Here is where I get everything:
Call of the wild: http://www.wysong.net/products/cotw-dog-cat-supplement.php
Use coupon FREESHIPJX for free shipping

Calcium: http://www.knowwhatyoufeed.com/shop_online.html
All the way on the bottom of the page

Then buy these little spoons - you will need them to balance the meals:
Mini Measuring Spoons
1/32TSP of Eggshell powder balances 1oz of muscle meat - so if your meal is 1.5 oz for example, you will use the Smidgen, and the drop spoons - 1/32 and 1/64 respectively. When feeding an organ meal, you add an extra drop.
SMIDGEN = 1/32 tsp
DROP = 1/64 tsp

Here is the Krill Oil I Use: Now Foods Krill Oil I give them One gell Capsule a day, at breakfast. Just puncture it with a needle and squeeze it over the meat.

Here is the Probiotic I use: Natural Factors Probiotics Also one capsule a day, in the morning meal.

I feed them three meals a day. One in the morning, one early evening, and the last one late at night, before going to bed. All three meals are the same size, just vary the meats. Most supplements go in the morning - Calcium in all meals. Since I feed them Freeze dry liver, they get that in all meals as well.
I don't have a recipe per se - I just balance their meals, making sure they eat a variety of meats.

Hope this helps!!

 

[minka]

In the simplest terms, you can do it two ways:

80/10/5/5
80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 5% liver and 5% other secreting organ (not heart)

OR

pick any meats you like and add this: http://www.wysong.net/products/cotw-dog-cat-supplement.php



As you get comfortable, you can change it up and add different supplements if you choose like LDG and Carolina do. Everybody decides differently which ones they want to add.
:nod:




P.s. if your cat doesn't take to bone, you can replace it with calcium in the 80/10/5/5 plan like Carolina said.

 

[mickeys mom]

Right - you can just sprinkle the calcium over the chunks of meat and organ - that's what I do.
If you use Call of the wild, you don't even need to feed any organs - you only need to feed muscle meat, and call of the wild will balance it out. My meals were 1.5oz each, and it takes 1/2 TSP of Call of the wild to balance a meal. Just sprinkle it over and you are done.
Make sure to feed a variety of meats - I feed turkey breast and legs, chicken breast, duck hearts, pork, lamb, turkey hearts, Venison, and now I added Pork hearts.
Mine don't like liver or can't deal with it, so I give them freeze dried liver - they love it.
Liver has to be 5% of their total food intake - just remember that.
Normally, if you feed bones, it would be 80% muscle meat/10% bone/5% liver, 5% other secreting organ - which can be kidney, brain, spleen, pancreas....
I do not feed bones, so my diet is pretty much 95% Muscle meat, 5% Liver, supplemented with Calcium.
In addition I give them Krill Oil, Probiotics, Egg Lecithin for hair balls and for Bugsy, Slippery Elm Bark for Hair Balls as well.
Here is where I get everything:
Call of the wild: http://www.wysong.net/products/cotw-dog-cat-supplement.php
Use coupon FREESHIPJX for free shipping
Calcium: http://www.knowwhatyoufeed.com/shop_online.html
All the way on the bottom of the page
Then buy these little spoons - you will need them to balance the meals:
Mini Measuring Spoons
1/32TSP of Eggshell powder balances 1oz of muscle meat - so if your meal is 1.5 oz for example, you will use the Smidgen, and the drop spoons - 1/32 and 1/64 respectively. When feeding an organ meal, you add an extra drop.
SMIDGEN = 1/32 tsp
DROP = 1/64 tsp
Here is the Krill Oil I Use: Now Foods Krill Oil I give them One gell Capsule a day, at breakfast. Just puncture it with a needle and squeeze it over the meat.
Here is the Probiotic I use: Natural Factors Probiotics Also one capsule a day, in the morning meal.
I feed them three meals a day. One in the morning, one early evening, and the last one late at night, before going to bed. All three meals are the same size, just vary the meats. Most supplements go in the morning - Calcium in all meals. Since I feed them Freeze dry liver, they get that in all meals as well.
I don't have a recipe per se - I just balance their meals, making sure they eat a variety of meats.
Hope this helps!!

Carolina,  Thank you so much for all this information, I sure do appreciate all of it and I have bookmarked each of the web sites you mentioned.  I will try one at time and hopefully I can entice Mickey, with this raw food diet.  Thanks again.

 

[raintyger]

Thanks, everyone!

This thread has been very informative for me, too. I haven't done homemade raw yet, although I may in the future, and am going to made a PDF of this thread for future reference.

Mickeys Mom, there are a few items you can put on the raw food in order to entice kitty--

Lisa Pierson talks of parmesan cheese or Fortiflora, a probiotic. Fortiflora has ingredients in it that make it smell/taste like cat food. I've heard a few criticisms about the ingredients, so I usually use it to only to entice and don't use a full dose.


Some grind a single kibble and sprinkle it on the raw meat. I've crumbled freeze dried liver. (Careful with liver, they can OD on it, although I hear it takes a lot.)

 

[mickeys mom]

Thanks, everyone!

This thread has been very informative for me, too. I haven't done homemade raw yet, although I may in the future, and am going to made a PDF of this thread for future reference.

Mickeys Mom, there are a few items you can put on the raw food in order to entice kitty--

Lisa Pierson talks of parmesan cheese or Fortiflora, a probiotic. Fortiflora has ingredients in it that make it smell/taste like cat food. I've heard a few criticisms about the ingredients, so I usually use it to only to entice and don't use a full dose.


Some grind a single kibble and sprinkle it on the raw meat. I've crumbled freeze dried liver. (Careful with liver, they can OD on it, although I hear it takes a lot.)

Raintyger...I will definitely give these ideas a try, and who knows maybe Mickey, will think I have it all wrong and he' eating a wonderful gourmet meal.  

  Thank you!

 

[ldg]

Fortiflora was the initial magic trick needed here. :lol3: We were able to wean them off of that onto the freeze dried chicken.

But yes! Hopefully Mickey already knows he's a carnivore! :cross: :lol3: