How old is too old to socialize?

[chercatdragon]

I caught 8 ferals, had them fixed, and returned two to their home. Both were mama cats with kittens (over 8weeks old). It killed me to return the other 6, so i am trying to socialiaze them. However, i am beginning to have second thoughts. Respective ages: 1-2 year old; 2-1 year olds; 2-6 month olds; and 1-5 months old. We have had they for 3 weeks now, and are making some progress with 3 of them, 1 1 year old, a 6 month old and the 5 month old.
We have more than we can really care for but if i only return half, i feel like i am making a 'Sophie's Choice'. There are 2 spayed females and 1 un-neutered male in the outside environment.

[StefanZ]

There is really not any limit. Although the tendency is it takes more time and is more difficult the older they are.

I had known examples of fostering a 5+ cat where it took 6 long years. The cat living as a halftame semiferale in the house. Accepting the humans and the other cats, and not bothered by the home cats. The owner accepted this, she had the other cats to cuddle with. But after 6 looong years, in the autumn of her life, she too went to cuddle and sleep in Moms bed, together with all the other cats....


If you have time and patience there is thus no limit, and the reward is rich.
Another complication is though, if you have the 6 shy ferales together, it is more difficult. And vice versa: If you can have one or two feral together with a friendly resident, or together with another friendly ferale with a quick positive progress - it makes things much easier.

If you got some visible progress after ONLY 3 weeks, it is very good and rather quick I would say.

So DO have good hopes. Although you perhaps must be practical and letting someone of them go back.

You are supposed to try to do good, you are NOT supposed to crack open in the effort.... You must live you too.


Good luck!



Ps: Welcome to the Forums!

[LDG]

One of the most experienced rescuers I know will not attempt to socialize a feral over 3 years old unless there are unusual circumstances (health, for example).

That said... I'm not sure I'd recommend rehoming the feral that's 2 years old. Once this kitty crosses that "trust" barrier, he or she has bonded with you, and rehoming this kitty may make him/her regress completely. It would NOT be like adopting out an 8 week old kitten that you fostered.

...and any over 1 year old kitties we socialized are now our pets. I couldn't imagine adopting them out.

I believe there is a thread "stickied" at the top of this forum - someone working with a 6 month old feral. It took 6 months for any real progress, if I remember correctly.

It is very likely they will all come around. But in socializing any feral, you just have to turn off the clock, and that's all there is to it...especially with older ferals. Some may come around in a few months, some may take a few years. If you're pressed for time or resources, I wouldn't try to keep going with all of them.

[Lizita]

In general "they" say that the cut off point for socializing a feral is eight weeks. In my experience there is some truth to that. If what you want is a cat that will be "normal", affectionate and okay with all human presence you have to get them young, ie. under eight weeks. That doesn't mean that you can't get an older kitten to that point but with older kittens there are no guarantees. I know a woman who has a ten-year old cat that she's had since he was three months old and he still wants nothing to do with her.

I currently have a stray kitten that is five months old that I didn't come across until he was over eight weeks. For the first couple of months he kept his distance and ran whenever I made any motion in his direction. But the last month and a half he's started to come around. He's made a lot of progress a little at a time and the past couple of weeks I've been able to pick him up and hold him. By now he's pretty much like any other cat and socializing him was very easy. This kitten is out of the ordinary though and from what I know it's quite rare for something like this to happen.
I also have three now semi-feral kittens in my home. I got them when they were three months old and they are now eight months. I took them in hoping to socialize them and adopt them out with plan b being to rehome them to a farm. It's clear that we are going to have to go with plan b.
The three kittens have made different amounts of progress. One, Garcia, will let me pet him on his body and pick him up for a little bit but he's not really comfortable with it and cowars sometimes when I come to pet him. I've only been able to pet him for the last month. Before that I couldn't touch him. My husband can't tough him at all as he runs under the bed when hubby comes near.
Ayla, who is not related to the other two, won't have anything to do with me. She runs if I come within a few feet of her and I can't touch her at all. She has however allowed my husband to pet her some a few times. She sleeps next to him in bed, like all the other cats, and when it's dark and she's not realizing it he can pet her quite a bit, even get her to purr. As soon as she sees his hand though she takes off.
The third one, Dylan, who is Garcia's brother, has not made much progress. You can sit or stand next to him but only if you ignore him. Nobody can touch him and he runs from me if I just look at him when I'm standing close.

These guys may make some more progress but I don't think it will be much. None of them will ever be adoption candidates. Garcia can be petted now but only by me and I think it will remain that way. They were really young when they got here and I've worked really hard with them. They also live with several tame cats that they see coming up to us but that doesn't seem to make a difference.

Trying to socialize ferals over eight weeks is a gamble. You may win but you're more likely not to and the winnings may just be partial. If you do get one of these kitties to accept you chances are good that he won't accept anyone else, only you. They are not likely to be completely socialized, "normal" cats. Of course, if they are going to stay with you as part of your family they don't have to be social butterflies. No matter what, progress will take time.

When deciding to take in kittens and cats over eight weeks I think it's really important to know what you're getting into and that you have a plan b in case they don't become tame. You have to know that you are going to be in it for a while.
You have your work cut out for you and before you go any further I would sit down and really think it over if this is something you can do and what is best for the cats. Sometimes placing feral or semi-feral cats in a well managed barn or colony is not that bad. Seeing progress in the three cats in only three weeks is pretty good so you may have a good shot there but please have a plan b should it not work out. Keep in mind that the longer you have them in your home the harder it is going to be to return them to where they came from. You may want to start looking for a well managed barn for them just in case.

Good luck.

[LDG]

Lizita, I think it is great that you rescue and socialize! That said... I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you.

It has been our experience - and the experience of many, many, many people that have found their way to these forums, that the "eight week" cut-off espoused by other forums and organizations is a complete and total myth.

I learned about rescuing, TNR, caring for and socializing ferals from people on this forum and then from experience. Every one of our cats is a feral rescue, and the youngest was rescued at 10 weeks. The oldest was rescued at almost 2 years. They are all loving, wonderful pets.

Of course there are differences in personalities. Interestingly, the feral rescued the youngest, Lazlo, is still the most "ferally" of all of our kitties. He is now 7 years old - almost 8 - ( ) - and he'll still sometimes bolt at a loud cough or when we drop something.

...on the other hand, Billy, who has been inside with us for one year, was rescued at almost two years old. He is a complete and total lap cat, and his trust is total and complete. He may have been feral, but he grew up around people that were friendly to him and his brother, and he had no negative experiences with people (or so we assume).

What determines whether or not a feral will become a friendly pet is not how old they are when rescued - although that is a factor - it has just as much to do with their personalities and their former experiences with people.

Kitties abused by people or with very little human contact will take longer to socialize.

But the deciding factor in how long it will take or how successful socializing will be with any feral is not so much age - though over a few months if raised by a feral mom and having had little human contact will make it more difficult - is how much time the person socializing can commit to it, and how they go about it. Former experiences with people, the cat's personality, and how we manage the socialization are far more important than the age of the animal when it comes to "success."

There are no "guarantees" with adopting ANY cat. Of course a pure bred kitty with known genetic traits is far more likely to be a friendly, outgoing pet. But get to know the many cats of people on this board, and you will find many, many kitties that don't like strangers, aren't lap cats, or bolt at loud noises - and many weren't feral rescues.

On the other hand, there are also many feral rescues that are totally outgoing and are lap cats. You can read literally hundreds of these stories here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Part of the reason Anne (the founder of TCS) created these forums was to create a place where people can share experiences to help kitties with behavior problems keep their families and their homes, to help answer health questions - and to help people who have strays and ferals turn up figure out how best to help them.

Yes - if you do not have experience, socializing an older feral will be frustrating and a challenge. If you are not educated about the process and don't reach out to learn or to people with experience, rescuing a cat older than a few months will likely not be successful. But that is exactly why this forum is here - so those with experience can help people new to the process.

The "8 week cut off" is a good guide if the person socializing has little time, doesn't really know what they're doing, and doesn't want to put much effort into it.

But to say that

Originally Posted by Lizita

...If what you want is a cat that will be "normal", affectionate and okay with all human presence you have to get them young, ie. under eight weeks...

is just misinformed.

The two national cat rescue organizations do not recommend (generally) trying to socialize cats older than 8 weeks. This is because they are addressing a general audience and are concerned with volumes of cats, and the creation of effective foster networks to maximize adoptable cats.

Yes, kitties 8 weeks and under will likely socialize easily and quickly. But older cats can be socialized just as successfully - it's just that to do it, one has to be prepared to commit much more time to the process.

Originally Posted by Lizita

That doesn't mean that you can't get an older kitten to that point but with older kittens there are no guarantees.

There are never "guarantees," even at 4, 6, or 8 weeks. Again - a lot has to do with the cat's personality and former experiences with people.

Originally Posted by Lizita

I currently have a stray kitten that is five months old that I didn't come across until he was over eight weeks. For the first couple of months he kept his distance and ran whenever I made any motion in his direction. But the last month and a half he's started to come around. He's made a lot of progress a little at a time and the past couple of weeks I've been able to pick him up and hold him. By now he's pretty much like any other cat and socializing him was very easy. This kitten is out of the ordinary though and from what I know it's quite rare for something like this to happen.

Please, please, please spend some time perusing threads in this forum. It is not rare, and it is not unusual. When done properly, it is to be expected.

Originally Posted by Lizita

I also have three now semi-feral kittens in my home. I got them when they were three months old and they are now eight months. I took them in hoping to socialize them and adopt them out with plan b being to rehome them to a farm. It's clear that we are going to have to go with plan b.
The three kittens have made different amounts of progress. One, Garcia, will let me pet him on his body and pick him up for a little bit but he's not really comfortable with it and cowars sometimes when I come to pet him. I've only been able to pet him for the last month. Before that I couldn't touch him. My husband can't tough him at all as he runs under the bed when hubby comes near.
Ayla, who is not related to the other two, won't have anything to do with me. She runs if I come within a few feet of her and I can't touch her at all. She has however allowed my husband to pet her some a few times. She sleeps next to him in bed, like all the other cats, and when it's dark and she's not realizing it he can pet her quite a bit, even get her to purr. As soon as she sees his hand though she takes off.
The third one, Dylan, who is Garcia's brother, has not made much progress. You can sit or stand next to him but only if you ignore him. Nobody can touch him and he runs from me if I just look at him when I'm standing close.

I don't know what socialization methods you use, but looking at a feral cat in the eyes is a sign of aggression - bolting at that is to be expected. Walking towards ferals is also very threatening. This is why so many of us recommend that feral cats in the process of being socialized be confined to one room, and that until they provide signs that they are ready, whoever is working to socialize them should spend as much time in the room as possible, doing anything and everything but interacting with the cats. Especially down at floor level. Working on a laptop, reading out loud, sewing, knitting, doing a puzzle, folding laundry, doing stretches, sleeping in there....

The key to successfully socializing feral cats that are a little older is turning off your clock, establishing a routine, and letting them cross the trust barrier before you try to turn them into a pet.

This may very well be what you've done - I don't know. I just know that when the methods I learned from others here and my own experiences are employed, there are rarely unhappy endings.

Originally Posted by Lizita

Trying to socialize ferals over eight weeks is a gamble. You may win but you're more likely not to and the winnings may just be partial.

Again, I believe this is information is simply not correct, and I again respectfully completely disagree.

Originally Posted by Lizita

If you do get one of these kitties to accept you chances are good that he won't accept anyone else, only you. They are not likely to be completely socialized, "normal" cats. Of course, if they are going to stay with you as part of your family they don't have to be social butterflies. No matter what, progress will take time.

With kitties older than a few months, with this I agree. It of course depends completely upon the cat, but rehoming an older feral that crossed the trust barrier with you is not likely to transfer to a new person and new territory. If they are strays that exhibit feral behavior, then it's a different story. If they're showing signs of progress in three weeks, this may be the case given they are 1 and 2 years old - but only time will tell.

Originally Posted by Lizita

When deciding to take in kittens and cats over eight weeks I think it's really important to know what you're getting into and that you have a plan b in case they don't become tame. You have to know that you are going to be in it for a while.

I believe having a plan is important in rescuing any cat of any age - whether the plan is for kitty to live in your home, or be adopted out - being able to make a life time commitment when you take in an older feral to socialize is pretty much a given - though again, I think the "cut off," if we're going to use that term, would be several months old, not 8 weeks old, if we're hoping to adopt out the rescued kitty.

Originally Posted by Lizita

Keep in mind that the longer you have them in your home the harder it is going to be to return them to where they came from. You may want to start looking for a well managed barn for them just in case.

This is excellent advice.

I hope I didn't offend in the way I stated my opinion, but I really don't want inexperienced people thinking - oh, there's a kitty in my yard but it's older than 8 weeks so I shouldn't do anything but get it neutered and release it. ...because that 3-month or 6-month or 1-year or 2-year old kitty can make an excellent pet if the process is managed correctly.

I do believe people should take the time to learn what will be involved, but I'm sorry - that 8 week thing is just not correct.

[Momofmany]

Originally Posted by Lizita

In general "they" say that the cut off point for socializing a feral is eight weeks. In my experience there is some truth to that. If what you want is a cat that will be "normal", affectionate and okay with all human presence you have to get them young, ie. under eight weeks. That doesn't mean that you can't get an older kitten to that point but with older kittens there are no guarantees. I know a woman who has a ten-year old cat that she's had since he was three months old and he still wants nothing to do with her.

I'm glad to see that you put "they" in quotes. I always wondered who "they" were? And I'm also glad to see you put "normal" in quotes, because with a cat, what exactly is "normal"?

I've been socializing feral cats for about 20 years now. I've gotten them as young as 10 days old and as old as 2 years old. I've also raised "normal" cats.

The ability to socialize a cat, whether feral born or "normal" born, is entirely dependent on the personality of the cat. You are right when you say there are no guarantees, but there aren't really any guarantees with any cat you adopt, whether that be behavioral or health related. My brother's cat, born "normally" used to attack anyone that walked into their door.

My entire household right now was born feral (all 10 of them). The one that I took in at 2 years old is by far more "normal" than some that I took in at 5 weeks old. Lucky will greet strangers at the door while Eightball and Oscar hide under a bed the entire time strangers are in the house. In fact, everyone that I've taken in beyond 8 weeks old is quite friendly. And the one that I hand raised since orphaned at 10 days old won't have anything to do with me.

IMO, you never give up on them. They will become what they will become and you celebrate whatever success you have with them, regardless of the circumstance of their birth.

[clixpix]

I'm going to chime in here as well. I've socialized lots of cats and kittens, all of whom have been adopted out into loving homes, and are wonderful pets...all except for my JinJin whom I couldn't part with Not one of those was under 8 weeks old. That would have made it easier for sure! If I had abided by that 8 week rule, there still would be some of the ones I've socialized suffering on the streets (I live in Chicago). Those that weren't suffering would be dead. I cannot even imagine that.

I have actually socialized young adults that I have been able to successfully adopt to new homes, and they have done well. That being said, each cat is an individual, and so they each exhibit varying levels of confidence and affection. My ex-feral JinJin may never be a lap cat, or meet anyone at the door, but she loves me to pieces, and follows me around slavishly. She loves her scritches, and will sit next to me for as long as I'm willing to dole them out. But then again Sabina, my "normal" cat pees her furry little pants if I sneeze or (God forbid) tear off a piece of tin foil.

Chercatdragon, I feel you, though. You have done an amazing thing for these guys, and like you, I've gotten in over my head at times where it's overwhelming. I can't tell you when they'll "turn that corner", but 3 weeks is just a blip on the feral cat scale. Sometimes it's the patient work of months to get them to "flip the switch", sometimes it's sooner. If you're going to "go the distance" with them, you have to adjust your expectations. Pace yourself. There are tons of threads here, and LDG (Laurie), and Momofmany (Amy) are wonderful resources. I can help along the way, but they're the hard core experts! Read up on techniques, or ask for help. As Laurie said, that's the reason TCS exists. It can be done, but I know it's a frustrating process. I currently have four kittens and a mama from a hoarder, and the kittens were severely undersocialized. They're giving me a devil of a time, but they'll get there. Two of the kittens and the mama already have homes waiting for them. There are people out there who are willing to take in a "special needs" kitty, and that's what some of these guys are. Their "special need" is that they're scared, and they need time.

I also agree that there is a window of time where if they are in your home that it is unfair to put them back outside. Is there anyone who can take a couple of them off your hands for awhile and help you socialize?

[StefanZ]

Originally Posted by Lizita

Trying to socialize ferals over eight weeks is a gamble. You may win but you're more likely not to and the winnings may just be partial.

Lizita. You are a relatively newcomer, but you did already had several very good posts, some even great posts. Your sharings seems to be good. I do believe you are a rising star on our Forums sky...


Although here I must disagree some. Much of what you say is good advices and is true: You dont have completely safety for success and thus having a plan B is wise.

As LDG points out, the adopting of a semiferal can be too much if you arent prepared. These adopters who do have greatest difficulties ARE time and again these who take in a semiferal without prior experience of cats, or unprepared there is some hardships and work to do.

Im a great advocate of the homeless. On all the cat forums I do attend, this here, several swedish, a couple of polish, I do follow and advocate the strays, semiferales and ferales. And of course, these good persons who try to help these cats, Im learning very much in the process.

After all the cumulated witnesses from them all, I do strongly believe the odds are better than what you say. Yes, no 100% safety, very true, but the odds clearly better. Taken time and knowledge, heavy better.

I can however admit most of the fostered ferales remain a shy cat to strangers. They usually arent "sociale cats" if that is the purpose of fostering. But they are just fine with the family. Thus, being successfully fostered by the rescuer/fosterer, it makes it much easier to bond later also to the adopter.

I myself dont think it is bad with a shy homecat. Our oldest cat is shy to strangers, behaves in much quite alike our friends. so I do understand much of this behavior. But he is a wonderful family cat and we love him for it.

[chercatdragon]

Well, thanks from everyone. Seems the decision will be ours to make, but i will try to find someone else to help with the load. I kinda left out the part where I let everyone know we already have 10 of our own. We keep the ferals separate, but our home kitties know there is something going on.
But PROGRESS was made! One of the kitties actually mewed! I don' t know if it's these cats, or all ferals, but this the first non hiss/spit i have heard. This same cat, actually jumped down from her perch and waited on the floor for dinner.
My husband has also been able to 'pet' them using a grabber claw - at a distance, and not a real human hand, but at least they let him touch them. And when we play string with them, most join in. Three of them will eat with me present, working on the other three.
Thanks to everyone for your input, i think we will persevere.

[LDG]

If you want socialization tips you may not be employing, please either just ask, or feel free to search this (and the behavior) forums.

Playing is great!

It sounds like you guys are doing a wonderful job.

[icklemiss21]

To me, a feral under 8 weeks is just cuddles waiting a little longer to happen - they are scared kittens but not real ferals.

Autumn was at least three when the shelter took her in, so four when I got her. Even the other day I was still posting about her pregress and it has been over two years. Now she sleeps with us etc but is still a little nervous. I worked hard to save her life as she had been in the shelter too long to relocate to a colony.

You cant put a time on how long it takes or an age when not to try, I go by how they act after a few days, some are real ferals and are TNRed and released to managed colonies or local farms others we work with.

Like everyone else mentioned, the older they are the harder it is to get them to trust someone else after they learn to trust you - but not impossible. At the shelter we work around this by working in teams with a similar approach so they do not get too attached to us (doesnt stop us getting attached to them)

[Lizita]

Well, there are a lot of replies in this thread since I checked it last, some rather long, so I haven't read everything thoroughly so forgive me if I missed something.

I don't know everything. I'm sure there are a lot of things I can learn, as can everyone. However, I do not believe that you can take in any adult feral and expect him to become a friendly cat that can be handled by anyone like a cat that has been socialized from kittenhood can (in general). Some may get there but there are no guarantees and I do think therefore it is a gamble.

In regards to LDG's post I want to make clear what a feral is and what it is not. Many poeople wrongly think that "feral" is synonymous to "stray". That any cat living outside alone or in a colony is a feral cat. That's not true. A cat living outside without owners is a stray. A stray can also be feral or he can be tame. Some are in the middle, but these are not true ferals either.
A feral cat is a wild animal. It's a cat that has had no contact with humans and of course no socialization. They are born outside and have only had contact with other cats and fear humans just like any wild animal does. A feral cat is pretty much just as wild as a racoon. If a cat has had contact with humans and accepts their presence he is not feral, just a stray.
The cat LDG refers to in this sentence

"He may have been feral, but he grew up around people that were friendly to him and his brother, and he had no negative experiences with people (or so we assume)."

is most likely not a feral cat.

What determines whether or not a feral will become a friendly pet is not how old they are when rescued - although that is a factor - it has just as much to do with their personalities and their former experiences with people.

Kitties abused by people or with very little human contact will take longer to socialize.

Feral cats has had no contact with people other than maybe seeing some from a distance which is why it is so hard to socialize a true feral that are set in their ways.

Stray cats however, that are not true ferals, can and usually do become wonderful pets. Some may not have had contact with humans for some time and need so re-socialization that can take some time but they will become friendly and loving cats. I have several examples of this in my home. One cat, Elijah, took several months before I could be near him and he's now the sweetest cat I've got. He was never a feral though. Just a stray who's been out there for quite a while. He would hang around in the back yards around here and loved to sleep in my neighbor's lawn chairs and didn't move just because people were out so I knew that he was not a feral cat.

I hope I didn't offend in the way I stated my opinion

,

No, you didn't offend me and I hope I didn't offend you. It's just a discussion, trading arguments and learning from each other. It's nothing personal. We're all in it for the cats, right?

...but I really don't want inexperienced people thinking - oh, there's a kitty in my yard but it's older than 8 weeks so I shouldn't do anything but get it neutered and release it. ...because that 3-month or 6-month or 1-year or 2-year old kitty can make an excellent pet if the process is managed correctly.

I totally agree. Chances that the kitty in your yard is a tame cat is pretty good so I definitely think that a person coming across a stray cat should do what they can to make sure that the cat gets a home if possible. I care for about 20 stray cats and most of them are tame. Some are scared and skittish but still tame. Sadly most of them had homes or were cared for by humans in one way or another when they were kittens but were kicked out in the street when they were no longer little and cute. It's pretty common around here.

True ferals can sometimes become sweet and friendly pets but most of the time they will only be socialized to the people that tamed them and if moved will revert back to being feral. This is what I mean by that adult ferals usually don't become "normal" cats that are adoptable. There are exceptions but I wouldn't bank on that the feral you are taking in to tame will later become adoptable. There are no guarantees. Strays that are not feral are a different story. Like I said they usually become excellent pets.

I hope I didn't come across as argumentative. That was not my intention. What I say is simply what I've experienced and seen. Maybe I'm wrong and if so I'm open to arguments.
It's nothing personal and I hope I'm not getting off on the wrong foot with anyone.

Stefan, kul att se en annan Svensk. Vart i Sverige bor du? Jag har bott i staterna i over tio ar nu men jag ar fran Stockholm fran borjan.